Jesius said that if a person loved God and the neighbour the law would be fulfilled in their life. Love fulfills the law
Fair enough, but the all the rest of the commands of Jesus tell us HOW to show that love in practical ways. It's not so much about obeying a "law" so much as it is about following our leader.
I just finished a debate about something similar to this with scott over on the divine interpretation thread. If anyone has not seen what was happening in our discussion you really should go have a look at it. I think it's a classic example of what happens to varying degrees with all of us when it comes to obeying the commands of Jesus. It's just that scott's example is quite extreme.
Something slightly similar just happened between contemplative and me on this very thread. We got into a debate about wether broern's comment should have been worded "obey all the commands of Jesus" or "try to obey all the commands of Jesus". In the end I realized that either way was fine; the point is to obey Jesus.
But when I suggested slighly shifting the topic to what Jesus actually told us to obey, as opposed to a technicality about obeying all or trying to obey all, he said he would prefer not as that was not the topic of this thread.
however, that WAS the topic of broern's comment, i.e. that the truth church is one who obeys all of Christ's commands so obedience DOES fit within the context of the discussion. It's just that generally speaking people don't like to follow orders, especially when those orders dictate that we do something as extreme as forsaking all and preaching the gospel full time. Such teachings are indeed extreme, but that's what it takes to confront the root of all evil.
The literal command would not have to be refered to at all if the individual is loved.
I think there is a flaw in your logic here about literal commands. would you say that "love your neighbor as you love yourself" is a literal command or a figurative command?
When Jesus says "repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand" is that a literal command or a figurative command?
Is salvation literal or figurative? See, anytime people promote arguments against taking Jesus literally problems immediately arise, and most often the arguments against taking Jesus literally deal almost exclusively with his commands about discpline or other teachings which somehow ask something from us or make us feel uncomfortable, like scott did with the "call no man on earth father" teaching. In the end it seemed he felt it was too rediculous not to be able to call grandpa "grandpa" and so he convinced himself that he really did not understand what "call no man on earth father" meant and until god reavealed to him the "mystery" of that teaching he would just go on calling grandpa "grandpa".
Obvioiusly there ARE times when Jesus gives a very literal command with the intention of people actually doing what he said as is the case of "love your neighbor".
I would say it is the same kiind of thing for obediance to Christ's commands, but something else is vital too.
This is in reference to your comment that you feel the literal command would not even need to be referred to if people just loved. Once again a very concerning approach to the teachings of Jesus.
If the only command we needed to hear was "love your neighbor" then why did Jesus bother to go to so much effort to give all those other commands? At the end of the sermon on the mount, after Jesus finished give a very long list of commands, he gives the parable of the wise and foolish. He says both groups heard his sayings, but only the wise obeyed him.
The word "sayings" here is plural, i.e. not just a command about love, but ALL his commands. His teaching about what is the greatest command is not included in the sermon on the mount and yet he gives this admonishment about obeying his teachings Why would he do that if the literal command does not need to be referred to?
Now Paul had been a strict Pharisee, but to him now obediance did not come from looking to the literal command/law but by faith.
The same guy also said this
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Paul never taught against obedience to the commands of Jesus. He taught against believing that laws could save people. Only God can save, but why would he want to save someone who does not "referr" to his commands for how we should live?
All we need is faith working through love.
What about Jesus' teachings on living by faith in his provision rather than trusting in the systems of man?
In matthew 6:24-35 he said that we cannot work for God and money without hating one or the other. He said that we should consider the birds of the air and the flowers of the fields because they do not work for money, and yet God is able to provide for them what they need.
He commanded that we should not allow fear/worry for things like food and clothing to stop us from acting on his teachings to stop working for money, because God can take care of us.
He said that all the world runs after these things, but that we should NOT be like them. Instead, our NEW job is to seek FIRST the kingdom of Heaven and God will take care of the things we need.
We don't always know HOW God will provide, but that's why it's called living by faith.
So if you are sure that faith is all you really need, why not act on it? Here is your chance to show the values of the kingdom of Heaven as Jesus described it. You don't even need to do it alone. Sell what you have, buy a plane ticket and come over here to Kenya. I've got several friends over here where we live as a Christian community helping people 7 days a week. There is a lot you could do to help.
So I would say it all depends on how much we love God and will trust in his Son
Ah, but talk is cheap. It's very easy, especially here on a Christian forum, to talk about all kinds of nice things about love and faith and trust, but what happens when the rubber hits the road?
The point of Jesus commands is that it's a guage to SHOW our trust in him. Yes, indeed we must PROVE our love. That's why Jesus said "those who love me obey me" and then again a few verses later "those who obey me are those who show they love me". John14
How much trust are you willing to put on the line for your savior?
Not by looking to the literal commands, but by trusting Jesus because we love him and his Father.
You trust him, but not enough to look to his literal commands. I've still not heard any convincing explanation from you about why we should NOT look to those literal commands. Only some nice flowerly speech about how trusting him means we don't need to.
It really just boggles my mind. It seems reasonable that trust is exactly the very thing that will lead you to look at what he said and act on it. It's only people who do NOT trust him who would not want to act on his teachings.
I would say the commands of Christ would be harder to keep than much of the OT law, Christ upped the law as it were.
Ok good, NOW we are getting somewhere. The literal commands of Jesus are "hard". I think THAT is what this is really all about. All that other stuff about not referring to the literal commands by trusting in him is just a sugary coating to get us past the truth that this is really about skirting the disciplines of Christ.
No doubt that following the teachings of Jesus brings about some fairly stong discipline. That's what the word "disciple" means; one who is disciplined. But we don't pretend like it's not necessary just because something may be hard for us. That's like looking in the mirror and seeing egg on your face, but rather than wiping the egg off you break the mirror instead. Sure, you don't see the egg anymore, but it's still there.
The same things is happening with your arguments about trusting God for the purpose of not refering to his commands. You've created a doctrine where you don't need to look at the literal commands anymore (i.e. not refer to them, as you put it) but they are still there waiting for you.
So why did he give us even more demands where it mattered than they had in the OT?
Once again, the real issue here isn't that Jesus gave commands, but are you able to BE commanded? To a certain degree I think God appreciates that we question him because it shows we have a desire to know more about him, but at some point the questioning just becomes rebellion in disguise. At some point we need to stop dilly dallying around with uncertainty and just do what he said to do just because he said to do it.
I wonder if looki g to those individual commands and striving to obey them may not be doing what the Israelites tried to do with the OT law. It didn't work.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, [they]
are spirit, and [they] are life.
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.
Be careful, lbg, that you are not expressing some kind of hidden shame for the spirit of God expressed through the teachings of Jesus with this doctrine of not "referring" to them for the sake of love.