What is the Abomination of Desolation?
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And I'm even more surprised you do not believe...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.
God orchestrated the whole thing my friend even before the foundations of the earth.
So in perspective...your calling God a murderer.
Let me leave you with this...
Joseph of the old testament said.....what you ment for evil....God ment for good.
Scripture tells us.....for the glory set before him jesus endured the cross. Jesus endured the cross he didnt die because of it.
I've posted real proof. Gods hand all over that event and as Paul says he died according to scripture.
Viewing the crucifixion as judgement in 70 AD is a lie and perversion. Shame on those that believe this lie.
The crucifixion was a prophecy to be fulfilled. Not a random act of rejection.
A crown of thorns placed upon His head - yes; however, I do not see where you are getting this from...???
Were the sins of the paralytic forgiven? Yes. By Jesus? Yes. Before the Cross? Yes
hmm, imagine that.
And?
God is the transcendent creator, which is relevant for two reasons: 1) God has the right of authorship, and 2) he has the right of lordship. The logic of authorship means that if I create something with my own hands, I have the right to destroy it if I want. The logic of lordship mean that since God is lord over all, he has the right to put someone to death.
Neither the leaders of Israel nor the leaders of Rome have these rights. They assume the right to inflict capital punishment under the pretext that they are working for God, but only when a person has committed a capital offense. Jesus did not commit a capital offense, so his execution was unjust.
You are confusing God's will and judgment with human will and judgment. The two aren't necessarily the same. Your Genesis example is a good illustration. Jesus taught his disciples to look at things from two points of view: the heavenly and the earthly. He tells Nicodemus that if he doesn't believe the word of Jesus when he speaks about earthly things, how will he believe Jesus when he talks about heavenly things?
Joseph reveals his awareness of both points of view, From the earthly perspective, his brothers meant evil, but from the heavenly perspective God meant good. Both things are true at the same time. The same is true of the crucifixion. From the earthly perspective, the crucifixion was an evil act, but from a heavenly perspective, God meant it for good.
Paul recognizes this in Romans 11:11-12
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Here the Apostle speaks of the crucifixion from the two perspectives I mentioned earlier. From the earthly perspective, Israel transgressed; they killed the Messiah. Given this to be true, Paul asks a rhetorical question, "they [Israel] didn't stumble so as to fall did they? May it never be." From the earthly perspective, they transgressed, and it was such a great transgression that there is/was doubt whether God would destroy them. From the earthly perspective, they committed evil.
But from the heavenly perspective, Paul says, "by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles. What Israel meant for evil; God meant for good. Their transgression is riches for the world, and their failure is riches for the Gentiles. What they meant for evil God meant for good.
It is not wrong to say that Israel was unjust. If Paul thinks they were unjust, then so do I. It is truthful to admit when someone does wrong, even if God means it for good.
Hear me on this. We only know that God did good at the cross because he and the apostles said so. Without their testimony, we would never know it was meant for good. Just looking at the situation, all we see/saw is evil being performed. Without the revealed heavenly perspective, we would never have known that the cross was meant for good. A fair evaluation of the situation called for only one conclusion. Israel committed a grave abomination against the Lord.
There is no scripture I know of that there was a sacrifice going on in the temple at the exact same time Jesus was slain. Do you have a reference for that?
The veil in the temple was torn signifying an end to the sacrificial system, but I don't recall a sacrificial animal escaping from under the hands of the priest at that same time. Not in the bible anyway.
Remember it was Passover; an individual celebration for every Jew (every family did their own, in their own homes).
It was not Yom Kippur which was a temple sacrifice for the entire nation.
BTW do you know that the phrase "gave up the ghost" in both OT Hebrew and NT Greek means the same thing: "breathed his last [breath]"?
I was going my memory but these are the texts:
Matt 27:27-31; Mark 15:16-20; John 19:1-5
The Temple Schedule and the CrucifixionAccording to historical and biblical timelines, Jesus was crucified on Passover Friday, and the hours of His suffering directly coincided with the daily sacrificial rituals at the Second Temple just a short distance away:9:00 AM (The Third Hour): This was the time of the morning tamid (daily) lamb sacrifice. The Gospel of Mark notes this as the hour Jesus was placed on the cross.3:00 PM (The Ninth Hour): This was the exact time of the evening tamid sacrifice, when the daily afternoon lamb was offered. The Gospels record that Jesus died at this exact moment.Passover Lambs: Because it was Preparation Day for Passover, tens of thousands of Passover lambs were also being prepared for slaughter by the priests in the Temple courtyard during that afternoon.
Verses 16 & 17 relates to the Passover meal. How is that entire chapter relevant to you post?
Numbers 28 starts with the daily sacrifice...daily 2 lambs 9pm 3pm daily jesus nailed at 9pm died 3pm.
Jesus was crucified on April 3, 30 A.D. Wednesday Nisan 14th - before the 'special' Sabbath ("High Passover Sabbath") on Thursday Nisan 15th - before the 'regular' Sabbath on Saturday Nisan 17th.
I agree that the Bible tells us that He was crucified at the third hour (9AM) and died at the ninth hour (3PM).
He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights: Wednesday (by sundown) - Thursday - Friday - Saturday --- 3 "full" [24-hour] days.
Matthew 12:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
It was actually Wednesday Nisan 15 31AD
But I agree 3 full days and nights before the resurrection on Sunday Nisan 19.
Honestly I am not here to debate exact dates times ect...that doesn't change the issue of 70 AD as a abomination.
Or the fact of saying Jesus was murdered.
I stand by my findings and have peace with them. To each their own in this matter as its not a salvation issue.
Jesus said no man takes my life.....I have the power to lay it down and to pick it up. Speaks for its self.
You can take the crucifixion for what it is as a glorious work of salvation from God or you can make it a crime scene choice is yours.
Secular reasoning has always watered down and perverted the truth.
If you dont believe Jesus has the power over life or death starting with his own.....so be it.
2Sa 24:1 (Literally)
And-again the-anger-of YHWH for-to-kindle within/against Israel, and it (the anger of YHWH) caused-to-prick/stir-up David against-them (Israel) for-to-say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
JHWH is not the masculine singular subject of "was kindled". The-anger-of-JHWH is the masculine singular subject of "was kindled".
The sense of the Hebrew seems to me to be,
"And again the-anger-of YHWH was-caused-to-stir-up for-to-kindle against Israel, and [the anger of YHWH] caused-David-to-stir-up against-[Israel] for-to-say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
i.e. "And again the-anger-of YHWH was-stirred-up for-to-kindle against Israel, and [the anger of YHWH] caused-David-to-stir-up against-[Israel] for-to-say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
In other words, Israel as a nation was disappointing God so that He was becoming angry with them. David realised that God was angry with Israel, and suspecting that God was about to hand Israel over to their enemies, David panicked and wondered whether Israel had the numbers to defend themselves without God's help, so he foolishly ordered the nation's military aged men to be numbered, compounding the problem.
JHWH is not the subject, the anger of YHWH is the subject.
Your grammatical observation is fair as far as it goes.
The immediate subject of the verb is indeed "the anger of YHWH", not the divine name standing by itself.
However, I don't think that changes the substance of the argument as much as you suggest.
In Hebrew narrative, "the anger of YHWH" is not an independent actor detached from God, but an expression of God's own action and judgment. The anger is His anger.
Where I would hesitate is when you move from grammar to reconstruction.
The text itself never says David observed God's anger, inferred an invasion was coming, panicked, and therefore decided to number Israel.
That may be a plausible explanation, but it is still an explanation supplied beyond the wording of the text.
The larger difficulty is that 1 Chronicles 21:1 says "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."
So whatever happened, the biblical writers were comfortable saying both that David was provoked by Satan and that the event occurred in the context of the LORD's anger against Israel.
That suggests the text is describing more than David merely noticing God's displeasure and making a bad decision.
I would therefore say your grammatical point is stronger than your interpretive conclusion.
The subject of the verb may indeed be "the anger of YHWH," but that does not eliminate divine involvement, nor does it by itself establish that David's census was simply a human overreaction to a perceived military threat.
The challenge remains to explain why Samuel frames the event in terms of God's anger while Chronicles frames it in terms of Satan's provocation, and I think both texts need to be allowed to speak.
I would suggest that when David saw that God was angry and was likely to abandon Israel to their enemies, satan whispered into his ear that he had better check to see what his defensive resources were without God, and so it was true that both God's anger provoked Dqvid to number Israel, and satan also provoked David. The verbs are hiphil, causative. Both God's anger and satan were instrumental in influencing David's behaviour.