What is the proof Jesus is eternally begotten son?

[SonJudgment]

Try responding to the specific question asked instead of mentally rewording it and responding to your own misunderstanding.

Okay if you just want me to basically repeat myself then since you also do not understand.. Again, if you think Jesus only became Jesus when he was conceived in the flesh of the virgin Mary, or if you think Jesus only became God at his resurrection, or if you think in any ways that Jesus was only begotten once then you have fallen for the damnable heresy of Arianism of which all that held that heresy before you are in Hell certified by all the saints official. Jesus always was, still is, and always will be Jesus, the only eternally begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[wattie]

Begetting in the sense of having the same essence as the Father. Not that Jesus had to come into being.

If it is referring to the time He took on human form... it doesn’t take away from existing before, being equal with the Father, co-eternal, co-existing.

Whatever beget means.. it doesn't mean Jesus was ever NOT fully God.

 

[Magenta]

Nehemiah 9:6 plus John 1:3

 

[Dino246]

Okay if you just want me to basically repeat myself then since you also do not understand.. Again, if you think Jesus only became Jesus when he was conceived in the flesh of the virgin Mary, or if you think Jesus only became God at his resurrection, or if you think in any ways that Jesus was only begotten once then you have fallen for the damnable heresy of Arianism of which all that held that heresy before you are in Hell certified by all the saints official.

If I wanted you to repeat yourself, I would have asked you to do so. I want you to answer the question, which you have not yet done. Here's the question you were asked:

"Where does scripture say Jesus was always human, even before the incarnation?"

Your response completely fails to answer the question. Don't bother including anything like "If you..." in your response; there's no need for guessing what anyone else thinks and there's no need to be a jackdonkey about it. Just answer the exact question you were asked, or admit that Scripture doesn't say so, or that you don't know.

Jesus always was, still is, and always will be Jesus, the only eternally begotten Son of God.

Where does Scripture say that Jesus is "eternally begotten"? Hebrews 13:8 doesn't say that.

 

[PaulThomson]

If you think Jesus only became Jesus when he was conceived in the flesh of the virgin Mary you're basically flirting with Arianism, that's where you've gone wrong. Jesus was around before even Mary's ancestor Abraham. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Jesus is the only eternally begotten Son of God.

The person who became named in the first century "Jesus of Nazareth" has always existed. I have already agreed with that.

Heb. 1:
8 But unto the Son he says Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.

9 You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

10 And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Your hands:

11 They shall perish; but You remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt You fold them up, and they shall be changed: but You art the same, and your years shall not fail.

But we are discussing the claim that Jesus is eternally begotten. We know from scripture that He was conceived by Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit. There was a time when He was not physically in Mary's womb, and then He became physically present; so we could say He was physically begotten (caused to begin to exist physically) at the incarnation.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And we know that He was begotten out from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. There was a time when He was physically dead, and His soul was present in Hades among the rest of the souls of the physically dead, and then He became physically alive and His soul .left the realm of the dead. So we could say He was begotten (He was caused to begin to exist physically alive again) out from the midst of the physically dead.

To beget means to cause something to begin to exist. There is no biblical or logical reason to claim that a Person who has always existed spiritually was caused to begin to exist (i.e. was begotten) spiritually. YOu have yet to supply any scripture that conforms that.

As for your lifting of Heb. 13:5 out of context to place Jesus of Nazareth in eternity -

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I see that the author is addressing the motivations of his audience: covetousness and contentment. He reminds the audience that before ascending into heaven in 30AD, Jesus had promised never to leave nor forsake His disciples. He conclu=des from this that Jesus must be present today and able to help His disciples, therefore we need not fear what man does to us.
The author then tells the disciples that as confirmation of that promise, they should consider the lives of those who taught them the gospel, who believed Jesus promise to never leave nor forsake, and experienced Jesus' help during their walk of faith. He tells his audience to imitate their teachers in practising the same confidence in Jesus as they have. He assures them that Jesus is the same in the experience of the post-ascension disciples since 30 AD (i.e yesterday), and in the audience's lifetimes (today) and without end intomthe future (forever).

The context does not justify us taking the sense of "yesterday" back further than 30AD when Jesus made the promise: "I will never leave you nor forsake you.'

 

[Cameron143]

The person who became named in the first century "Jesus of Nazareth" has always existed. I have already agreed with that.

Heb. 1:
8 But unto the Son he says Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.

9 You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

10 And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Your hands:

11 They shall perish; but You remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt You fold them up, and they shall be changed: but You art the same, and your years shall not fail.

But we are discussing the claim that Jesus is eternally begotten. We know from scripture that He was conceived by Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit. There was a time when He was not physically in Mary's womb, and then He became physically present; so we could say He was physically begotten (caused to begin to exist physically) at the incarnation.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And we know that He was begotten out from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. There was a time when He was physically dead, and His soul was present in Hades among the rest of the souls of the physically dead, and then He became physically alive and His soul .left the realm of the dead. So we could say He was begotten (He was caused to begin to exist physically alive again) out from the midst of the physically dead.

To beget means to cause something to begin to exist. There is no biblical or logical reason to claim that a Person who has always existed spiritually was caused to begin to exist (i.e. was begotten) spiritually. YOu have yet to supply any scripture that conforms that.

As for your lifting of Heb. 13:5 out of context to place Jesus of Nazareth in eternity -

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I see that the author is addressing the motivations of his audience: covetousness and contentment. He reminds the audience that before ascending into heaven in 30AD, Jesus had promised never to leave nor forsake His disciples. He conclu=des from this that Jesus must be present today and able to help His disciples, therefore we need not fear what man does to us.
The author then tells the disciples that as confirmation of that promise, they should consider the lives of those who taught them the gospel, who believed Jesus promise to never leave nor forsake, and experienced Jesus' help during their walk of faith. He tells his audience to imitate their teachers in practising the same confidence in Jesus as they have. He assures them that Jesus is the same in the experience of the post-ascension disciples since 30 AD (i.e yesterday), and in the audience's lifetimes (today) and without end intomthe future (forever).

The context does not justify us taking the sense of "yesterday" back further than 30AD when Jesus made the promise: "I will never leave you nor forsake you.'

Who visited Abraham? Do you believe the promise applied to him?

 

[JMH]

What is the proof Jesus is eternally begotten son?

John 3:3 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
Christians can present "proof" all day long but unless you are born again, reading the bible is like reading someone else's mail.

 

[SonJudgment]

The person who became named in the first century "Jesus of Nazareth" has always existed. I have already agreed with that.

Heb. 1:
8 But unto the Son he says Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.

9 You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

10 And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Your hands:

11 They shall perish; but You remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt You fold them up, and they shall be changed: but You art the same, and your years shall not fail.

But we are discussing the claim that Jesus is eternally begotten. We know from scripture that He was conceived by Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit. There was a time when He was not physically in Mary's womb, and then He became physically present; so we could say He was physically begotten (caused to begin to exist physically) at the incarnation.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And we know that He was begotten out from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. There was a time when He was physically dead, and His soul was present in Hades among the rest of the souls of the physically dead, and then He became physically alive and His soul .left the realm of the dead. So we could say He was begotten (He was caused to begin to exist physically alive again) out from the midst of the physically dead.

To beget means to cause something to begin to exist. There is no biblical or logical reason to claim that a Person who has always existed spiritually was caused to begin to exist (i.e. was begotten) spiritually. YOu have yet to supply any scripture that conforms that.

As for your lifting of Heb. 13:5 out of context to place Jesus of Nazareth in eternity -

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I see that the author is addressing the motivations of his audience: covetousness and contentment. He reminds the audience that before ascending into heaven in 30AD, Jesus had promised never to leave nor forsake His disciples. He conclu=des from this that Jesus must be present today and able to help His disciples, therefore we need not fear what man does to us.
The author then tells the disciples that as confirmation of that promise, they should consider the lives of those who taught them the gospel, who believed Jesus promise to never leave nor forsake, and experienced Jesus' help during their walk of faith. He tells his audience to imitate their teachers in practising the same confidence in Jesus as they have. He assures them that Jesus is the same in the experience of the post-ascension disciples since 30 AD (i.e yesterday), and in the audience's lifetimes (today) and without end intomthe future (forever).

The context does not justify us taking the sense of "yesterday" back further than 30AD when Jesus made the promise: "I will never leave you nor forsake you.'

That's a whole lot of words to say you don't really understand what eternal generation is. Congratulations, you're not believing in the trinity doctrine, which is essential to Christianity, you're believing in the doctrine of Arianism and according to the saints official the prize you will win will be an eternity in hellfire unless you give it up and accept the Lord Jesus Christ the only eternally begotten Son of God.

To be certain there was never a time where Jesus was not Jesus. Before Abraham was begotten Jesus was begotten. Before even Adam was begotten Jesus, in whose image Adam was made, Jesus was begottten. Before there was even an Earth, from the moment God spoke Jesus was begotten. Even before God spoke Jesus was eternally begotten and indwelling with the Father. There has never been a time where Jesus was not begotten. There has never been a time when the Father was without the Son, or for that matter the Holy Spirit as well. Even if we then look instead of the past into the present and the future Jesus is begotten even as we speak and will continue to be the eternally begotten Son of God. And if that's too much for you to figure out from the scriptures you're really going to struggle with the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, the one and only eternally proceeding Holy Spirit of God. Jesus is the one and only eternally begotten Son of God.

 

[posthuman]

For starters, "eternally begotten" is meaningless bafflegab to a 21st century reader. The two words don't appear together in any major translation (that I could find), so I'm wondering where you got the phrase.

it's in the Nicene Creed.

Athanasius coined it ((probably)) in argument with the Arians, who believed there was a time when Christ did not exist - that He is a created being. this was the primary thing the Nicene council met to settle - whether the Son is co-eternal with the Father or whether He is created, in other words, the deity of Christ.

there are many proofs - - one that comes to mind with direct bearing is that by Him all things were created, both visible and invisible things, that is, all things both physical and spiritual - nothing that is created was created except through Him.
therefore He is uncreated: He is the Creator God, therefore He is eternal - and since He is the only begotten, and does not change, He is 'eternally begotten' - the eternal Son. IOW there is no such thing as a time He does not exist, and there is no time He is not the Son.

 

[Magenta]

1 John 5:20

 

[SonJudgment]

it's in the Nicene Creed.

Athanasius coined it ((probably)) in argument with the Arians, who believed there was a time when Christ did not exist - that He is a created being. this was the primary thing the Nicene council met to settle - whether the Son is co-eternal with the Father or whether He is created, in other words, the deity of Christ.

there are many proofs - - one that comes to mind with direct bearing is that by Him all things were created, both visible and invisible things, that is, all things both physical and spiritual - nothing that is created was created except through Him.
therefore He is uncreated: He is the Creator God.

This cannot really be liked enough. Well put.

 

[posthuman]

The concept of eternally-begotten makes no sense, is not in the Bible and is unnecessary.

i agree it's messy language, but we should view it in the context it originated in. it has to do with whether the substance of the person of Christ is exactly the same substance of God - that He is, in essence, God, equal to God, of the same essence as God.
in that sense 'begotten' in the same way a kitten is a cat, because it is born from cats. He is the only begotten, the only physical/visible manifestation of the invisible God.

the context this language comes from is Nicea, where the topic was the deity of Christ and specifically whether He has existed forever or He was created.

 

[posthuman]

To beget means to cause something to begin to exist. There is no biblical or logical reason to claim that a Person who has always existed spiritually was caused to begin to exist (i.e. was begotten) spiritually. YOu have yet to supply any scripture that conforms that.

well i don't really have a better way to say He is never not God and He is never not the Son of God in only two words lol

i imagine the term 'begotten' was used here because of the Arian side of the argument, which claimed that because He was begotten - we see that term in scripture - He had a definite beginning in time and therefore isn't eternal ((which leads to the conclusion, He is not divine)).

 

[SonJudgment]

i agree it's messy language, but we should view it in the context it originated in. it has to do with whether the substance of the person of Christ is exactly the same substance of God - that He is, in essence, God, equal to God, of the same essence as God.
in that sense 'begotten' in the same way a kitten is a cat, because it is born from cats. He is the only begotten, the only physical/visible manifestation of the invisible God.

the context this language comes from is Nicea, where the topic was the deity of Christ and specifically whether He has existed forever or He was created.

Nuanced minor disagreement, but I believe the language makes perfect sense. If you put it another way in the doctrine form, which is Eternal Generation, it makes perfect sense as you added in your edit which I will just copy paste and bold below because it is actually a perfect summary of the idea of eternal generation/eternally begotten.

He is the Creator God, therefore He is eternal - and since He is the only begotten, and does not change, He is 'eternally begotten' - the eternal Son. IOW there is no such thing as a time He does not exist, and there is no time He is not the Son.

 

[PaulThomson]

Who visited Abraham? Do you believe the promise applied to him?

Please, cite the scriptures you are referring to in your question.

 

[PaulThomson]

i agree it's messy language, but we should view it in the context it originated in. it has to do with whether the substance of the person of Christ is exactly the same substance of God - that He is, in essence, God, equal to God, of the same essence as God.
in that sense 'begotten' in the same way a kitten is a cat, because it is born from cats. He is the only begotten, the only physical/visible manifestation of the invisible God.

the context this language comes from is Nicea, where the topic was the deity of Christ and specifically whether He has existed forever or He was created.

If that is what you think begotten means, then do you also confess that the Father and Holy Spirit are eternally begotten by the Son, since you profess to believe that the Father and Holy Spirit are exactly the same essence as the Son and the Father and Holy Spirit are "in essence, God, equal to God, of the same essence as God."

 

[posthuman]

If that is what you think begotten means, then do you also confess that the Father and Holy Spirit are eternally begotten by the Son, since you profess to believe that the Father and Holy Spirit are exactly the same essence as the Son and the Father and Holy Spirit are "in essence, God, equal to God, of the same essence as God."

The Father is not described as 'proceeding from' or 'sent from' the Son, but the Son reveals Him.

 

[Cameron143]

Please, cite the scriptures you are referring to in your question.

You said that there was no reason to take the phrase yesterday beyond 30AD. The original promise dates back to the old covenant. But the promise is to all God's people. Even this would have been true of Adam and Eve. I just wonder why you don't believe the context warrants going back further.

 

[PaulThomson]

That's a whole lot of words to say you don't really understand what eternal generation is. Congratulations, you're not believing in the trinity doctrine, which is essential to Christianity, you're believing in the doctrine of Arianism and according to the saints official the prize you will win will be an eternity in hellfire unless you give it up and accept the Lord Jesus Christ the only eternally begotten Son of God.

To be certain there was never a time where Jesus was not Jesus. Before Abraham was begotten Jesus was begotten. Before even Adam was begotten Jesus, in whose image Adam was made, Jesus was begottten. Before there was even an Earth, from the moment God spoke Jesus was begotten. Even before God spoke Jesus was eternally begotten and indwelling with the Father. There has never been a time where Jesus was not begotten. There has never been a time when the Father was without the Son, or for that matter the Holy Spirit as well. Even if we then look instead of the past into the present and the future Jesus is begotten even as we speak and will continue to be the eternally begotten Son of God. And if that's too much for you to figure out from the scriptures you're really going to struggle with the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, the one and only eternally proceeding Holy Spirit of God. Jesus is the one and only eternally begotten Son of God.

You are not listening to understand. I believe the Person who incarnated to become Jesus of Nazareth was the Son, the Word, who has no beginning. But he was not begotten as the human Jesus of Nazareth until His incarnation. I do happen to believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each ever-existing and distinct Divine Persons who reign communally and unanimously as Yahweh, the only true God.

But where do you get the doctrine that Jesus is eternally begotten from in the Bible. It is simply not there... unless you can cite some particular scripture I have missed in the last 40 years. To be a Christian someone does not have to confess that the Son is eternally begotten. Where is that in scripture?

 

[PaulThomson]

Cameron143 said:
Who visited Abraham? Do you believe the promise applied to him?

PaulThomson said:
Please, cite the scriptures you are referring to in your question.

You said that there was no reason to take the phrase yesterday beyond 30AD. The original promise dates back to the old covenant. But the promise is to all God's people. Even this would have been true of Adam and Eve. I just wonder why you don't believe the context warrants going back further.

I see no citation of scripture there.