What's middle class where you live?

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calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#1
In my state Oklahoma income was $61,471 per 4 person family. In 2017, that is way off because it includes the very poor and very rich. rich. I'd like to see what it really is if the upper and lower 10% were both deducted and the average of 80% were the only ones considered.

To me middle class is a blue collar or truck driver or retail clerk. It seems to me that we don't have an average idea what average means or is. A roofer, a nurse, a soldier a bank teller? or something more extreme?
 
M

morefaithrequired

Guest
#2
Ive always considered middle class as the following occupations for example:

small business owner
teachers
nurses
accountants
middle managers
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
6,066
3,415
113
#3
In my state Oklahoma income was $61,471 per 4 person family. In 2017, that is way off because it includes the very poor and very rich. rich. I'd like to see what it really is if the upper and lower 10% were both deducted and the average of 80% were the only ones considered.

To me middle class is a blue collar or truck driver or retail clerk. It seems to me that we don't have an average idea what average means or is. A roofer, a nurse, a soldier a bank teller? or something more extreme?
I'm curious to know where your information came from since everything that I can find places the median income in OK in the $50,000 range. Even the Wiki page that breaks that income down by county only lists 7 counties where the median income is above $60,000. Based on Pew Research formulas "middle class" for Oklahoma would be between $33,000 and $100,000.

There is a big difference between median income (an average) and middle class (a range). Here in Colorado median income (based on 2017 numbers) is $69,000 with "middle class" being considered between $45,000 and $138,000.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#4
$33000 + $100000 = 13300 / 2 = $66,500 .
https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/oklahoma/
The ACS 1-year survey shows that the median family income for Oklahoma was $61,471 in 2017. Compared to the median US family income, Oklahoma median family income is $12,420 lower. Like the median household income numbers, 2018 family income data will be released in September of 2019.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#5
Again that was a famliy of four with 1 or 2 working adults.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#6
Ive always considered middle class as the following occupations for example:

small business owner
teachers
nurses
accountants
middle managers
Small business owners like convenience store and fast food restarant franchises or Plumbers and landscapers?
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
27,429
9,411
113
#7
All I know is, I have no class... :p

Where I live there is a local businessman who makes high class money, but has a house like many others around here, drives a "normal" car, etc. Is middle class determined by how much money you have or by how you live?
 
S

Susanna

Guest
#8
I believe middle class is the people having a low risk job in a low risk area living in a low risk neighborhood and eating something healthy for supper every day, not sipping Jim Beam, no home rolled cigarettes, no deployment and etc.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#9
I think it the family tax bracket. According to the area or state in which they live in. There is much dissention regarding how much is a fair tax burden. Usually the argument revolves around the middle class but from area to area that varies widely. Usually the middle class claim to carry the most unfair percentage because the poor can't pay and the rich don't seem to enough. According to most people I have know.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#11
Not sure, are you meaning your town, region, city, or country?

My area (town, suburb) has been traditionally working class. I.e non professional, jobs that dont need higher education skills or university degrees, but now many more people are getting higher education, but not everyone are obtaining roles in their profession.

If going strictly by income, one would have to calculate the median rather than the average, since there is a huge gap between rich and poor now. In many bigger organisations the CEOS are earning ten times as much as their workers/employees and there is not much middle management.

Averages, stastically speaking, are often skewed and are not really the middle. You want to find the median.

As for type of job, those that work in a trade are often not throught of as middle class. Middle class might be someones whos been university educated and makes a living as a architect, doctor, lawyer, dentist, engineer. They may be wealthy enough to own their own home or at least make a deposit on one. They wouldnt be renting and might actually have more than one home. If married, the wife may not have to work a job and earn as the husband could have enough income to be the breadwinner, typically. But thats starting to become rare now as house prices increase, cost of living increases.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#12
Not sure, are you meaning your town, region, city, or country?

My area (town, suburb) has been traditionally working class. I.e non professional, jobs that dont need higher education skills or university degrees, but now many more people are getting higher education, but not everyone are obtaining roles in their profession.

If going strictly by income, one would have to calculate the median rather than the average, since there is a huge gap between rich and poor now. In many bigger organisations the CEOS are earning ten times as much as their workers/employees and there is not much middle management.

Averages, stastically speaking, are often skewed and are not really the middle. You want to find the median.

As for type of job, those that work in a trade are often not throught of as middle class. Middle class might be someones whos been university educated and makes a living as a architect, doctor, lawyer, dentist, engineer. They may be wealthy enough to own their own home or at least make a deposit on one. They wouldnt be renting and might actually have more than one home. If married, the wife may not have to work a job and earn as the husband could have enough income to be the breadwinner, typically. But thats starting to become rare now as house prices increase, cost of living increases.
I was quoting our state median income but its not accurate at all here Oil fields are a major source of employment statewide but none are to seen near here. I've always considered doctors and lawyers with offices (no interns or public defenders) about the starting point of rich. I had to go to night school to become an auto smog mechanic in California. But that was decades ago.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
#13
hub and myself have qualified at some point in our lives, separate and together as all of the above = me, at one point,
above middle-class - he, middle class, even with a beach house + - and then = after un-fortunate circumstances,
me, 'poor' and he, poor = and so, the WORLD' will always try and present 'castes', but alas, and thankfully,
our Heavenly Father doesn't make that 'separation', for He tells us that 'we are all ONE in Christ Jesus,
If we belong and serve and walk in His Holy Light...
when He calls us out and shows us that we belong to Him, the demonic-world no longer has any dirt on us!
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#14
Theres working class, typically employees or tradies earning wages eg by the hour. Employment can bepartime, seasonal or causual and there is sometimes little job security, and no room for advancement, wages dont often rise with inflation.

Then middle class professions that earn salaries. This income is per year and isnt typically paid by the hour.
I think thats the main difference. You get more say over what you can earn and negotiate how much you get paid. Often you will have graduate qualifications that are internationally recognised.

The next class is the aristocrats. They typically have inherited money and actually dont NEED to work. Their income could be just the interest they earn from a trust fund or land portfolio.

Another class is the entrepenuer i.e donald trump, who invests money and does deals. They may win big, but they also take risks and lose big. Anyone whos an investment banker is basically gambling with other peoples money, but its seen as legit. They are in a class of their own.

Not sure why you concerned over this but as christians we look to God to provide all our needs, money shouldnt be our worry. He will give us enough for our families and he will forgive our debts. No matter what type of work is, we should do it for the Lord.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#15
Theres working class, typically employees or tradies earning wages eg by the hour. Employment can bepartime, seasonal or causual and there is sometimes little job security, and no room for advancement, wages dont often rise with inflation.

Then middle class professions that earn salaries. This income is per year and isnt typically paid by the hour.
I think thats the main difference. You get more say over what you can earn and negotiate how much you get paid. Often you will have graduate qualifications that are internationally recognised.

The next class is the aristocrats. They typically have inherited money and actually dont NEED to work. Their income could be just the interest they earn from a trust fund or land portfolio.

Another class is the entrepenuer i.e donald trump, who invests money and does deals. They may win big, but they also take risks and lose big. Anyone whos an investment banker is basically gambling with other peoples money, but its seen as legit. They are in a class of their own.

Not sure why you concerned over this but as christians we look to God to provide all our needs, money shouldnt be our worry. He will give us enough for our families and he will forgive our debts. No matter what type of work is, we should do it for the Lord.
It's because when we talk about politics the middle class often comes up but there no consensus regarding who they are it was to point out that many of use the term but we all have quite varying ideas regarding who they are. To me it's the average worker the earn the medial income. Be they nurses, small business owners or truck drivers. in my area a family of four with 2 working adults each wage earner would need to make about $30,000 per year each to be considered middle class from an economic stand point... Mind you homes are readily availably and plentiful for about $100,000 so what is quite affordable here isn't in other places. And a living wage here would be unacceptable in other places as well.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#16
To me middle class is average wage for average workers Be they grocers, plumbers, carpenters, car sales persons Counselors, Pastors, Police... etc.
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#17
I think the word “Middle Class” is used in economics and in the financial world to determine a set of people and has to be defined by money in the end. Most people might think they are middle class are not, as the costs of staying in the middle class are going up.

Growing up, the middle class are taught to work hard to get a nice house and a reliable vehicle. Now they realise how easily borrowing too much can undermine this plan

Things they were taught could be assets aren’t really assets, they’re liabilities so there is a “debt elephant” in the middle class sitting room no one is talking about.

Unsecured debt was once something that was undesirable but occasionally necessary to something that is both inevitable and now normal.

Credit cards and loans, once something for emergencies, are now a vital way to get through the month until payday for millions of people. I am not sure about elsewhere, but in the UK, 22% of people rely on credit cards to live.

There is a famous term used in Britain called “Keeping up with the Joneses”. It basically means you look at your neighbours car, house etc and “keep up” somehow to give the appearance of “doing well”. Is this “middle class”? Maybe, but its certainly breaking the tenth and last commandment. The "middle class" in Britain have now become the debtors class more like. Remember that the middle class are always the first ones to be wiped out financially in a depression as some are only a payday away from bankruptcy as they live beyond their means. The poor are used to being poor and the rich have enough in a financial crash, but the “middles” are always striving for more and are usually in the most debt.

These people are so in the “red” that they have to take out more credit to avoid problems and are people who you think really shouldn’t need it: 30 percent of people using credit cards to survive earn between £50,000 and £70,000, compared with 25 percent of people who earn £15,000 (you may question the use of the word ‘survive’ – I think it means ‘to pay the bills’ rather than actually stay alive). The higher income bracket made up the biggest proportion of desperate borrowers and speculated that debt could now be a ‘keeping up with the Joneses" led phenomenon.

This explanation is purely a financial way to class people in the “middle” or not.

If it is a social explanation or cultural - that is different. Monty Python explains this as it was this way in Britain when the “keeping up with the Joneses” term was coined. The book the “Ragged Trousered Philanthropists” by Robert Tressell defines this even better.

As for myself, I think you are either a saver or a spender. I was brought up to believe debt is a dirty word and if you don't have the money, don't buy it. “Need” and “want” are two different things and there is only so much you need in life and the rest is just for showing off.

Britain is still obsessed with “class” but on a social/cultural way more so. It was never more prevalent than in the 60s and 70s but old habits die hard. The upper class these days are just as much in debt as everyone else and can't afford to run their inherited wealth of stately homes, so have to rent them out to the public and the working class sometimes have more disposable income than the middle class who have mortgages, car loan debt and credit cards. Its all about living within your means no matter how much you earn.

Socially and culturally, Britain still try to "appear" to be in the "middle class" but whether there living costs are sustainable to their lifestyle is another matter to what it may "appear".

 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#18
I think the word “Middle Class” is used in economics and in the financial world to determine a set of people and has to be defined by money in the end. Most people might think they are middle class are not, as the costs of staying in the middle class are going up.

Growing up, the middle class are taught to work hard to get a nice house and a reliable vehicle. Now they realise how easily borrowing too much can undermine this plan

Things they were taught could be assets aren’t really assets, they’re liabilities so there is a “debt elephant” in the middle class sitting room no one is talking about.

Unsecured debt was once something that was undesirable but occasionally necessary to something that is both inevitable and now normal.

Credit cards and loans, once something for emergencies, are now a vital way to get through the month until payday for millions of people. I am not sure about elsewhere, but in the UK, 22% of people rely on credit cards to live.

There is a famous term used in Britain called “Keeping up with the Joneses”. It basically means you look at your neighbours car, house etc and “keep up” somehow to give the appearance of “doing well”. Is this “middle class”? Maybe, but its certainly breaking the tenth and last commandment. The "middle class" in Britain have now become the debtors class more like. Remember that the middle class are always the first ones to be wiped out financially in a depression as some are only a payday away from bankruptcy as they live beyond their means. The poor are used to being poor and the rich have enough in a financial crash, but the “middles” are always striving for more and are usually in the most debt.

These people are so in the “red” that they have to take out more credit to avoid problems and are people who you think really shouldn’t need it: 30 percent of people using credit cards to survive earn between £50,000 and £70,000, compared with 25 percent of people who earn £15,000 (you may question the use of the word ‘survive’ – I think it means ‘to pay the bills’ rather than actually stay alive). The higher income bracket made up the biggest proportion of desperate borrowers and speculated that debt could now be a ‘keeping up with the Joneses" led phenomenon.

This explanation is purely a financial way to class people in the “middle” or not.

If it is a social explanation or cultural - that is different. Monty Python explains this as it was this way in Britain when the “keeping up with the Joneses” term was coined. The book the “Ragged Trousered Philanthropists” by Robert Tressell defines this even better.

As for myself, I think you are either a saver or a spender. I was brought up to believe debt is a dirty word and if you don't have the money, don't buy it. “Need” and “want” are two different things and there is only so much you need in life and the rest is just for showing off.

Britain is still obsessed with “class” but on a social/cultural way more so. It was never more prevalent than in the 60s and 70s but old habits die hard. The upper class these days are just as much in debt as everyone else and can't afford to run their inherited wealth of stately homes, so have to rent them out to the public and the working class sometimes have more disposable income than the middle class who have mortgages, car loan debt and credit cards. Its all about living within your means no matter how much you earn.

Socially and culturally, Britain still try to "appear" to be in the "middle class" but whether there living costs are sustainable to their lifestyle is another matter to what it may "appear".

Thank you very, very much. It's the best, most logical and to the point answer of all so far. Whos next?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#19
Calibob your midle class just sounds like working class if you used Britains model of classes in society. Britain is basically as bad as india with its castes. If you were born into working class you had solidarity with this class. You might be in a trade union and your accent would be different from the more educated middle class. Your children would go to a comprehensive school, whereas a middle class child would go to a public school (in britain, they call them public, but actually, they are private)

Middle classe people do covet what their neighbours have, thats why they are willing to go into debt to have the nice house, the nice car and live in the nice neighbourhood. Wheras working classes make do with what theyve got. In britain theres also the 'chattering class' which is basicslly your jorunos and anyone working in public relations and media, or academia who make a living from talking about stuff but not actually DOING anything about it.