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1Covenant
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If God predestined men to be saved did he not also foreordain HOW they might be saved?
What's so bad about calvinism?
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But that is not the doctrine of calvinism. calvanism teaches that we have no choice, that God predetermined before time as we know begin, who would Be in heaven and who would be in hell, we that preach you have a choice teaches that by His foreknowledge of who would choose Him and who wouldn't is how He predetermined this and that he gave us the choice, and yes Him being all knowing knew that man would fail and so the plan of grace to those who would believe was also predetermined , But this is not what the calvinist that I have talked to believe they preach it that we have no choice
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1Covenant
Guest
The tactics as you put it are the same as everyone else and the difficulty is that God's Word is not always clear in one passage by itself, but needs other scripture to clarify and even then there are things inferred that must be dealt with in response to error.
What I mean is that, if I say that my youngest daughter is the tallest of my daughters, it necessarily infers that I have more than one daughter and that my oldest daughter is not the tallest. However, if at some later time I say that my oldest child, she is the smartest of my children. I can infer from previous statements that it the other way around that my oldest daughter is not the tallest, I cannot infer that I have more than one child, that my oldest child is a daughter, and from previous statements made elsewhere that there is at least one more daughter and that the younger daughter is not as smart as my oldest
Now out good inference you can combine this into one statement of knowledge of me.
I have two daughters, the youngest is the tallest and the oldest is the smartest. There may be more children but you cannot assume that.
This is where scripture leaves us and why we use more than one scripture to prove or clarify another scripture. When we do this, and we all do this, we create a doctrine or a view of scripture that we have to have built on scripture. The more you read and study God's Word the more of this you will develop and the more you then have to decide if the various views or doctrines you hold work together to be consistent with God's Word.
Not "Making it fit" is a challenge everyone is faced with and not exclusive to a particular group.
For the record both my daughters are lovely and smart.
Though from that statement you may still infer that one is taller than the other.
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1Covenant
Guest
Whoa I should edit better that was a mess. I reposted to fix it.
The tactics as you put it are the same as everyone else and the difficulty is that God's Word is not always clear in one passage by itself, but needs other scripture to clarify and even then there are things inferred that must be dealt with in response to error.
What I mean is that, if I say that my youngest daughter is the tallest of my daughters and if at some later time I say that my oldest child, she is the smartest of my children.
Now out good inference you can combine this into one statement of knowledge of me which adds information to my statement.
I have two daughters, the oldest is not taller than the youngest, and the youngest is not smarter than the oldest. There may be more children but you cannot assume that.
This is where scripture leaves us and why we use more than one scripture to prove or clarify another scripture. When we do this, and we all do this, we create a doctrine or a view of scripture that we have to have built on scripture. The more you read and study God's Word the more of this you will develop and the more you then have to decide if the various views or doctrines you hold work together to be consistent with God's Word.
Not "Making it fit" is a challenge everyone is faced with and not exclusive to a particular group.
For the record both my daughters are lovely and smart. Though from that statement you may still infer that one is taller than the other.
The tactics as you put it are the same as everyone else and the difficulty is that God's Word is not always clear in one passage by itself, but needs other scripture to clarify and even then there are things inferred that must be dealt with in response to error.
What I mean is that, if I say that my youngest daughter is the tallest of my daughters and if at some later time I say that my oldest child, she is the smartest of my children.
Now out good inference you can combine this into one statement of knowledge of me which adds information to my statement.
I have two daughters, the oldest is not taller than the youngest, and the youngest is not smarter than the oldest. There may be more children but you cannot assume that.
This is where scripture leaves us and why we use more than one scripture to prove or clarify another scripture. When we do this, and we all do this, we create a doctrine or a view of scripture that we have to have built on scripture. The more you read and study God's Word the more of this you will develop and the more you then have to decide if the various views or doctrines you hold work together to be consistent with God's Word.
Not "Making it fit" is a challenge everyone is faced with and not exclusive to a particular group.
For the record both my daughters are lovely and smart.
Though from that statement you may still infer that one is taller than the other.Ultimately, I think the most important thing to remember is that you will never need to use non-biblical terminology to explain a biblical concept.
And to further keep my focus where it belongs, I like to ask myself, does this issue affect what G-d wants from me, or what I'm to do with my life, as far how I can serve Him, and so forth ?
If not, then it's really more of a mental issue, than a spiritual one. All too often, we let these complicated doctrines divide us into different groups.. Even if we're not calling each other out over it, or disrespectful, still.. Why even let us be split down, if we're serving the same G-d, who wants the same things from us ?
And to further keep my focus where it belongs, I like to ask myself, does this issue affect what G-d wants from me, or what I'm to do with my life, as far how I can serve Him, and so forth ?
If not, then it's really more of a mental issue, than a spiritual one. All too often, we let these complicated doctrines divide us into different groups.. Even if we're not calling each other out over it, or disrespectful, still.. Why even let us be split down, if we're serving the same G-d, who wants the same things from us ?
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1Covenant
Guest
Predestination is a piece of the whole and as a whole this is what it looks like. The teaching is that man has a free will but by nature of his fall always chooses as Adam did, which is not to choose God (total depravity), if it were not for God having predestined those whom he first set his affections upon by unconditional election (no merit of their own) they would not be saved by the work of HS (irresistible grace) which bears witness to the atonement made by God for all those that were His (limited atonement) and that those that are truly His will persevere until the end (perseverance of the saints).
Not that this proves anything biblically but since we are talking about calvinism lets consider where Calvin was coming from. He quotes many scriptures and we could debate them as we already have but I think Calvin's quote of Augustine as follows enlightens us more to his train of thought on this matter.
“We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good, and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things rather than not to permit evil things to be…, so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do.”
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1still_waters
Guest
If God's grace is irresistible then why do verses like these exist in the NT? These verses suggest that God's grace can indeed be resisted.
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[b] 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Now some say that may refer to a believer backsliding and they aren't unsaved. When that is said, well that makes no sense. I mean first you say God calls you so much that you can't resist His calling, But once you're saved, he just kinda drops it and lets you do what you want and he won't keep you close to Him through irresistible means?
Dude, Calvinism just doesn't work.
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[b] 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Now some say that may refer to a believer backsliding and they aren't unsaved. When that is said, well that makes no sense. I mean first you say God calls you so much that you can't resist His calling, But once you're saved, he just kinda drops it and lets you do what you want and he won't keep you close to Him through irresistible means?
Dude, Calvinism just doesn't work.
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1still_waters
Guest
Or from Hebrews 2
1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
If God does indeed work irresistibly, then why the need to pay more careful attention and why the risk of drifting away? Irresistible works don't allow for the ability to drift away!
Some Calvinist say these verses are just God's warning to his elect to keep them inline and that it's more of a prod to do right, than an actual warning of consequences that will come their way.
Well that makes no sense either. Why would God warn people about something he'd really doesn't intend on carrying out?
1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
If God does indeed work irresistibly, then why the need to pay more careful attention and why the risk of drifting away? Irresistible works don't allow for the ability to drift away!
Some Calvinist say these verses are just God's warning to his elect to keep them inline and that it's more of a prod to do right, than an actual warning of consequences that will come their way.
Well that makes no sense either. Why would God warn people about something he'd really doesn't intend on carrying out?
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1still_waters
Guest
Or Hebrews 4
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.[a] 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
If it's irresistible, then how could someone fall short of it?
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.[a] 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
If it's irresistible, then how could someone fall short of it?
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1Covenant
Guest
The principle is that when God decrees something there is also a means by which he accomplishes it. He decrees salvation and the means is Christ's death on the Cross. As God has decreed his saints to persevere His means are the word, the body of believers(accountability), and so on.
In the OT it is said that God moved David to number Israel, in another passage in a different book speaking of the exact moment the scripture reads that Satan moved David to number Israel. It was a sin by the way.
Which is true? This is a glimpse into the work of God. It is biblical to say that God did this and it is also biblical to say that Satan did it. Satan was the means by which the sovereign God dealt with David.
You choose Christ and God caused you to choose Christ. You must persevere and God will enable you to persevere.
This idea of means and God's decrees are true again and again of Israel's rebellion. It is not the strength of other nations that overcomes Israel but God's judgment and the other nations are His means. The same with King Ahab when God asks who will convince Ahab essentially to go off to his death and one spirit came forth to go and be a lying spirit to him. There is a means by which the decrees of God are worked out.
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1still_waters
Guest
See this is what I mean by Calvinists trying to make verses fit in to their system. I just gave some hefty verses from Hebrews that don't fit in to the Calvinist system.
Instead of saying the verses I named mean this or that, he uses some obscure OT references to make all my verses fit in to the Calvinist system.
Maybe he's typing up more stuff as I type.
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1Covenant
Guest
I guess I believe in the things espoused by Calvin because I see them in scripture but I am first a Christian (my identity is in Christ not Calvin) and when you put scripture up, I am going to try and fit it with everything I believe which is built from scripture. So what I believe about how God works in time as laid out in scripture plays into the bigger picture of how he deals with us. I'm sorry if it didn't make sense or let me know how I may clarify.
Also, I believe that it is important to note that when someone questions a brick of someone's theological house, it should not be a surprise that there is more to a house than one brick, as I am sure this is true with you as well.
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C
Cup-of-Ruin
Guest
Because they were not from Him, they cannot, as Jesus says "Ye are not My sheep".
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1still_waters
Guest
So he's warning people to not fall short of something they never had the ability to enter in the first place?
Sorry, Calvinism just doesn't work.
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1Covenant
Guest
In relation to the biblical warnings and the biblical call for perseverance, I would recommend the following book. I know that this coming from a Christian who believes along the same lines of Calvin, makes this book sketch in some people's minds, but I really believe that it is an extremely fair book and takes time not to make straw men arguments on any side and it delves deeply into the scriptures. I believe anyone would find it helpful in one fashion or another.
The book is called The Race Set Before Us - by Thomas R. Schreiner & Ardel B. Caneday
The book is called The Race Set Before Us - by Thomas R. Schreiner & Ardel B. Caneday
John 3:16 doesnt say whosoever CHOOSES to believe, its a statement, whosoever BELIEVES. You have to remember that when it is said, God wants all men to be saved, it is spoken to the church.
Paul says the word elect so many times I don't know how you can argue against it.
Jesus said, no one can recieve Him unless sent by the Father, and that none can take any from the Fathers hand for He is STRONGER.
I don't really see you having a choice because He gives you a heart of flesh, His heart, that is set on Him.
Paul calls himself a bondservant, a freed slave, freed from what? sin. a slave to who? God.
Does God wrong a lost person because He doesnt save them? NO, a lost man loves his sin.
Does God give a free gift to the reedemed? Yes, it's His gift, a gift is something given by the giver and not by the receiver.
Does God withhold His gift from those who want it? No, He infact promises it to all those who dilligently seek Him. He foreknew.
Does a lost man seek God? No, He hates God.
Do we have free will? No, we are a slave, if you commit sin you are a slave to it, you can't have 2 masters.
A slave doesn't abide in the house forever but a son does, that is our hope in awaiting the adoptian, for the reedeming of the flesh.
Not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.
Paul says the word elect so many times I don't know how you can argue against it.
Jesus said, no one can recieve Him unless sent by the Father, and that none can take any from the Fathers hand for He is STRONGER.
I don't really see you having a choice because He gives you a heart of flesh, His heart, that is set on Him.
Paul calls himself a bondservant, a freed slave, freed from what? sin. a slave to who? God.
Does God wrong a lost person because He doesnt save them? NO, a lost man loves his sin.
Does God give a free gift to the reedemed? Yes, it's His gift, a gift is something given by the giver and not by the receiver.
Does God withhold His gift from those who want it? No, He infact promises it to all those who dilligently seek Him. He foreknew.
Does a lost man seek God? No, He hates God.
Do we have free will? No, we are a slave, if you commit sin you are a slave to it, you can't have 2 masters.
A slave doesn't abide in the house forever but a son does, that is our hope in awaiting the adoptian, for the reedeming of the flesh.
Not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.
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1still_waters
Guest
Sorry but in Hebrews 3 he addresses then as 'holy brothers who share in the heavenly calling'
So he's not writing to unbelievers and he goes on to say...
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[b]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Irresistible grace does not work for these verses written to believers! Its' clear people can and do resist his will, hence there is no such thing as irresistible grace. These verses can't be to unbelievers who won't accept him anyways, because an unbeliever is not considered a 'brother'.
So he's not writing to unbelievers and he goes on to say...
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[b]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Irresistible grace does not work for these verses written to believers! Its' clear people can and do resist his will, hence there is no such thing as irresistible grace. These verses can't be to unbelievers who won't accept him anyways, because an unbeliever is not considered a 'brother'.
A good point, there are many warnings not to turn away.
there is this....
Heb:4:2 "For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them' but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with FAITH in those who heard it.
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1Covenant
Guest
I have already attempted to explain that there are means (or tools) by which God's decrees come about.
I would add that their are other scriptures as well to balance predestination with. In God's means, he has stated that the wheat and tares will remain together in NT and this is nothing new since the OT also declares that not all Israel is true Israel.
In this world you may know the difference by perseverance and ultimately you will know all in heaven.
Paul even makes comment on the eternal state of some people because they did not remain among us, they did not persevere.
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