What's so bad about calvinism?

[Cup-of-Ruin]

So he's warning people to not fall short of something they never had the ability to enter in the first place?

Sorry, Calvinism just doesn't work.

Hebrews 3:11 "So I sware in My Wrath, they shall not enter into My rest."
Hebrews 3:19 "So therefore we see that they cound not enter in because of unbelief"

Who? Hebrews 3:16 "For some when they heard did provoke: howbeit, not all that come out of Egypt by Moses."

OK there were some that came out of egypt but not by Moses, they were not children of Israel.

So.

Hebrews 4:1 "Let us (whom are Israel and the true decendents of Eber) therefore fear, lest, a promise being left to us of into His Rest (New Covenant, New Sabbath- Jesus Christ) anyone being judged to have missed it. For we have had the good news as well as they, only, the message they heard was of no use to them because it dis not meet with the faith of the hearers, For we do enter by this faith according to His word, "As I swore in My anger they shall never enter My Rest".....etc.

OK see this translation from Greek, whether from The KJV or from Moffatt's NT we get the same message, the Gospel is of no profit for those that are not given the right to enter into His rest, God determines who and who is not in Covenant with Him.

 

[Lifelike]

So you believe in universal salvation, however God only saves what is His, not that which is not His, also God is in Covenant, the blood for the remission of sin is binding for those in Covenant, for those outside the blood does not cover them, they are on there own. If He willed every single human being to be saved than it would be done and it would be universal salvation, however the Bible is quite clear, that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and even some that do confess are still not saved, they will have to depart from Him and will be outside the kcoming kingdom, it is clear that not all will be saved.

God does will, earnestly that all would be saved, but will not cross over our free will. God has the ability to freely choose, and so does in every moment, he chooses to tarry, he chooses to uphold, he chooses to release things to the earth, based on his wisdom he acts which is a choice of His will. We are made in His image, with this abiltiy to choose - to choose Him. God does not desire a people that are His play things that He created from His own will to just do His bidding because thats what we are programmed to do, but our of a free will choice. its the only way love can work, as love is a choice. i have battled these same topics in my own heart, "how can a loving God send people to Hell??", "if God knows everything, then He knows what choices i will make and whether i will accept Him or reject Him, is it as good as already done??" Predestination has also be something ive wrestled with. But one thing i will say is its OK not to understand some things. We are finite beings (flesh) created in a finite world, we have been introduced to eternal life but it is His life, He knows all, He has the eternal perspective, we get to learn from Him but to just jump in and make declarations about predestination is quite arrogant and proud. He is the holder of the mysteries, not us. I would LOVE to fully understand the Truth of predestination and will as He reveals it but through out it all my free will will remain intact, as will his, because this is love. We can become one with God, without being violated or having our rights removed, the rights we have are our gift from God, and need to be given freely, from our hearts because we will. this romance IS predestined, between The Lord and His wife, may i be a part of that number Lord!

 

[Stanton]

Exodus 32:14

"And the LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do to His people"

That's all the Biblical foundation I need, interestingly God had actually told Moses to leave Him alone, He was going to strike out in wrath, no doubt about it, Moses didn't listen, and imagine this as God in all His anger and fury and little old Moses confronts him again tells Him to repent of His will! God considers Moses plea, then repents, amazing, Moses really had some ticker!

Hmmm interesting because I just looked at the ESV, NIV, NKJV, and NASB translation of this verse and each of them says relented and not repented. Now considering I don't agree with the KJV this is just my opinion but I don't believe repented is the proper translation of what the scripture is trying to say. Relented means to change one's mind or to soften ones heart. So I will agree on the stance that He changed His mind but not on God repenting. Considering that its not an accurate translation of the hebrew word.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Exodus 32:14

"And the LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do to His people"

repented.... נחם
Strong's H5162 - nacham.. Definition...
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
a) (Niphal)
1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself
b) (Piel) to comfort, console
c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
d) (Hithpael)
1) to be sorry, have compassion
2) to rue, repent of
3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
4) to ease oneself


Clear contradiction of ..
Numbers 23
19 God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

The same word for "repent" Strong's H5162 - nacham... Is used in both verses?... Now I'm a bit confused ... Can someone clear that up for me? Sorry my question is off topic...

 

[Stanton]

If calvinism is a true could you please explain this don't try and turn to MacCarther's commentary all He says on it is that there are some scriptures on free that even he struggles with.

2ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

If Paul really preached predestination why would He say that he suffered that the elect( predetermined ones) may also obtain salvation. now here you can't say that the reason he preached the gospel is because he didn't know who the elect were, or he suffered because he didn't know who the elect were. for clearly here Paul says that the elect needed to obtain salvation also. Now I look at bibical doctrines as a boat, as long as Our boats/doctrines keep afloat we are good but if someone comes along with scriptures and put holes in our boats/doctrines then we have a choice to jump on their boat or to go down with our boat that is sinking. this verse 2tim 2:10 clearly blows areally big hole in the doctrine of Grace according to calvinism. I would love to hear your take on this verse along with another question if I may. if God predetermined some into heaven and some into hell before time begin why Did Jesus have to go to the the cross, was there not another way than the Cross and does calvinism not make the cross and the works Christ did on the Cross vain???

Pastor Keith those are some amazing questions. Well considering the fact that the elect is unkown. I do not in any way shape or form know who the elect thats why we preach the Gospel to all. The elect do need salvation but thats because we start out as evil wicked humans that when the time comes God saves us through the Gospel, His grace, mercy, and love. I'm actually kind of short on time because Im on my lunch break but I can give more information on this later on. The second question I will answer with this. Why wouldn't Jesus die on the cross? Only the blood of a pure sacrifice can wash away the sins completely. God probably could have had other ways but He didn't do them He chose this. I can not question why God does His will. Nothing that Jesus did was in vain.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Hmmm interesting because I just looked at the ESV, NIV, NKJV, and NASB translation of this verse and each of them says relented and not repented. Now considering I don't agree with the KJV this is just my opinion but I don't believe repented is the proper translation of what the scripture is trying to say. Relented means to change one's mind or to soften ones heart. So I will agree on the stance that He changed His mind but not on God repenting. Considering that its not an accurate translation of the hebrew word.

"Now leave Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them and that I may consume them, and I will make of thee a great nation."

Now this is interesting, God has spoken, not just thought about, He said I am going to kill them, and not only that but He has told Moses to get out the way and leave Him alone, He even offers an enticement to Moses, well not so much an enticement but very great blessing of making him a great nation, all Moses has to do is stand aside, and he will benefit greatly, but Moses does not stand aside but confronts the LORD, and amazingly God repents.

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament - Harris, Archer, Waltke.

nacham - be sorry, repent, regret, be comforted.

"Origin of the root seems to reflect the idea "breathing deeply", hence the physical display of one feelings, usually sorrow, compassion, or comfort"

God is free from sin. Yet the sriptures inform us that He repents Gen 6:6-7, Jud 2:18, I Sam 15:11, etc a total of thirty eight times in the OT, hmmmm, interesting, lets see what the Septuagint says;

"The Lord was prevailed upon to preserve His people"

OK so this seems to be the prayer of Moses to preserve His people as God gave His word to do so, so has God gone back on His word, no, God 's original word still prevails, Moses' prayer prevails, God answers prayer. If God had of destoyed Israel, He would have been reneging on His word He gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but doubtless there still is a conditional component and at this stage it certainly was a conditional relationship between God and Israel, Israel did have to agree to do certain things and they had not fulfilled that role. GOD's Will is sovereign, He can certainly change His mind, has He contradicted Himself? NO!

 

[DinoDillinger]

God ''predestined'' all men to be saved, however we must answer His calling.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

I don't believe God expects blind faith, He introduces Himself, makes Himself known, to those He calls.

To those He casts into the outer darkness, He says, I do not KNOW you.

Jonah didn't want to answer His call, did God pass him by and deliver it to someone else's hand? No, He cast Jonah into tribulation until Jonah relented to God's will.

 

[watchmen]

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

I don't believe God expects blind faith, He introduces Himself, makes Himself known, to those He calls.

To those He casts into the outer darkness, He says, I do not KNOW you.

Jonah didn't want to answer His call, did God pass him by and deliver it to someone else's hand? No, He cast Jonah into tribulation until Jonah relented to God's will.

We do not know what became of Jonah. Scripture tells us God wants all to be saved. Are you calling God a liar?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

We do not know what became of Jonah. Scripture tells us God wants all to be saved. Are you calling God a liar?

All that are forekown to Him, it is His will that they be saved.

 

[watchmen]

All that are forekown to Him, it is His will that they be saved.

No it is His will that every single person would be saved. Those He foreknew are those He know will be saved.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

No it is His will that every single person would be saved. Those He foreknew are those He know will be saved.

John 6:65-71

"Therefore I say unto you, that no man can come to Me, except it were given unto him of my Father"

"Jesus answered them 'Have I not chosen you and one of you is a devil?"

"But there are some of you that believe not, For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that would believe him not, and who would betray him."

 

[Densetzu]

John 6:65-71

"Therefore I say unto you, that no man can come to Me, except it were given unto him of my Father"

"Jesus answered them 'Have I not chosen you and one of you is a devil?"

"But there are some of you that believe not, For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that would believe him not, and who would betray him."

There's a reason most scholars don't believe John accurately records much of what Jesus said.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

There's a reason most scholars don't believe John accurately records much of what Jesus said.

Matthew 11:27

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: no man knoweth the Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomever the Son will reveal Him."

All four Gospels are accurate and agree with each other; no man knoweth either the Father or the Son, unless the Son reveal to him. How does the Son reveal? Through the Holy Spirit, which is sent by the Son, He will lead you into all truth, God thus chooses whomever He wills, salvation is a free gift from God, it is not of yourselves, it is grace.

 

[dovey]

Hope you guys got some stuff cleared up!!! My biggest question to God so far has been..."why didnt you scrap the whole thing?"....so much pain to have to watch and partake in....the only answer I have gotten back so far...is that He is Love, and stronger than I am...and that the little stuff is pretty cool, like standing on the ground, and feeling the water flow through your toes.....so I guess He had His reasons....It amazes me just how much He does LOVE ME!!!! who am I to ask Him such questions....and yet He answers in the most unbelievably beautiful ways!!!

 

[1Covenant]

"Now leave Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them and that I may consume them, and I will make of thee a great nation."

I think that it is helpful to understand that there are temporal means by which God accomplishes all eternal things in the temporal world for a people who dwell in the flesh. How He interacts with us to teach us about himself and sanctify us. Never is there a moment when that is not His purpose in scripture.

He is immutable - unchanging. So why does he invite Moses to play this orchestrated event? This is done for your sake and for Moses' sake.
Moses rightly discerns the eternal. If God does not keep His word to Abraham then His word is not perfect and trustworthy and any promise to Moses could be undone by his posterity. Moses rightly argues God's goodness and his promises back to God himself. God remains immutable and Moses more assured that God's Word is sure. So now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

This same answer is also seen in other aspects of our conversation on this thread.

He foreknows the answers to all our prayers before we pray. He knows which prayers HE will answer and which HE will not. So why does he command us to pray?
He foreknows his own(people) from the beginning. Who will be his and who will not. So why does He issue warnings to his people?
Why are we asked to take our part in this divine drama, except that in this temporal world we might learn and be molded according to the decree of God into stones fitted into that Spiritual House.

In the old testament it says that the temple, when it was being built, was built with stone finished at the quarry, so that no hammer or chisel or any iron tool was heard in the temple while it was being built.
This is the quarry, here on earth, and we are being fitted here as spiritual stones for heaven where the true temple is (Christ Jesus) and where no hammer will be felt or heard.

So I say again that it is in this world that the eternal decrees are being worked out through the temporal means by which God has seen fit to use for those ends. He is unchanging and in this world we are being changed.

 

[1Covenant]

No it is His will that every single person would be saved.

Let's stay on the subject of His will. What are we to learn about God's Will from a scripture that tells us that God is NOT WILLING that any should perish, yet people perish.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Let's stay on the subject of His will. What are we to learn about God's Will from a scripture that tells us that God is NOT WILLING that any should perish, yet people perish.

A perfect proof of God's limited sovereignty.

 

[1Covenant]

A perfect proof of God's limited sovereignty.

Please...would you continue the thought in the context of that scripture?

 

[dovey]

God is not limited, we don't see or understand the whole story. And He absolutly loves all of us!!!!! Am I getting this right that you guys are trying to decide if He lets anyone slip through his fingers? Doesn't that give you a head ache? I can only speak from my expereince, He pulled me literally out of darkness....if He can get me he can get anyone! and will, like He had been planning it for a very long time! God is not limited in anyway. I think it is dangerous for men to try and figure that out...you inevitably end up playing judge, or worrying yourself sick out of love. God is still HUGE, very much in control, able and longing to save!!!!! Why waste time with matters of religion....when you can be praying for someone? or loving on someone?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Please...would you continue the thought in the context of that scripture?

God's will is none to perish. But many do perish. Therefore God is not completely sovereign in the sense of being directly involved in the affairs of humankind by over-riding man's free will.