When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

[lamad]

We certainly are.
Look again at Revelation 5:11-13

Dude until you fear God and reject any interpretation that diminishes Him, calling Him unworthy or powerless or ignorant, you are never going to understand anything you are reading in scripture.

You need to fix that before we can discuss anything else on this topic.

You STILL don't understand, Jesus is not diminished because He has not completed His assigned tasks. Where do you come up with this stuff? It is ONLY that He still has work to do. Was He the redeemer BEFORE He shed blood? NO! Was He the redeemer as a baby? NO!

Remember, "He BECAME sin who knew no sin."

According to your theory, He WAS sin before He BECAME sin. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[posthuman]

You STILL don't understand, Jesus is not diminished because He has not completed His assigned tasks. Where do you come up with this stuff? It is ONLY that He still has work to do. Was He the redeemer BEFORE He shed blood? NO! Was He the redeemer as a baby? NO!

Remember, "He BECAME sin who knew no sin."

According to your theory, He WAS sin before He BECAME sin. Don't be ridiculous.

You think that means He is full of sin?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The point is, by this time Jesus had risen from the dead and had redeemed ALL MEN back to God.

Except the scene shows us that only certain ones (out of all humanity) are sitting on "thrones" (IN HEAVEN), and wearing "stephanon/crowns [G4735] of gold" and "clothed in white himation/raiment [G2440]" (4:4)
[COMPARE 3:5; and 2:10 / 3:11 in the section of "the things WHICH ARE" (that is, on the earth)]...
...and at a point in time when, as 5:3 says "no one IN HEAVEN, nor IN EARTH, neither UNDER THE EARTH [was found worthy to...]," meaning, at a point in time when "all of humanity" was in one of those three places...

...IOW, the "24 elders" saying "US" ('hast redeemed US to Go by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation" is not giving us the idea that the "24 elders" represent "all of humanity" as you are suggesting, in this post/quoted above.

Rather... a specific group "out-of EVERY..." (meaning, particular ones... and at a point in time when THESE PARTICULAR ONES are actually shown "IN HEAVEN" and with "stephanon/crowns," see).




[again, I agree in ONE SENSE, that this throne room scene is indeed supplying a time-stamp (just as many other places in Revelation are doing--example: Rev8:1-5 describing things that ONLY take place on the Day of Atonement)... Just not the day/date *you* are suggesting (back in/around 32ad)... ]

 

[lamad]

You think that means He is full of sin?

It only means in one moment He KNEW NO sin, and then BECAME sin after time. Time passed and things changed. He was completing what was required to become the Redeemer.

 

[lamad]

Except the scene shows us that only certain ones (out of all humanity) are sitting on "thrones" (IN HEAVEN), and wearing "stephanon/crowns [G4735] of gold" and "clothed in white himation/raiment [G2440]" (4:4)
[COMPARE 3:5; and 2:10 / 3:11 in the section of "the things WHICH ARE" (that is, on the earth)]...
...and at a point in time when, as 5:3 says "no one IN HEAVEN, nor IN EARTH, neither UNDER THE EARTH [was found worthy to...]," meaning, at a point in time when "all of humanity" was in one of those three places...

...IOW, the "24 elders" saying "US" ('hast redeemed US to Go by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation" is not giving us the idea that the "24 elders" represent "all of humanity" as you are suggesting, in this post/quoted above.

Rather... a specific group "out-of EVERY..." (meaning, particular ones... and at a point in time when THESE PARTICULAR ONES are actually shown "IN HEAVEN" and with "stephanon/crowns," see).




[again, I agree in ONE SENSE, that this throne room scene is indeed supplying a time-stamp (just as many other places in Revelation are doing--example: Rev8:1-5 describing things that ONLY take place on the Day of Atonement)... Just not the day/date *you* are suggesting (back in/around 32ad)... ]

"Elders" are not all. They are a very small part of all. Whoever said they were? Does this mean anything to the argument? It says He prevailed to become the redeemer. His blood was shed for all. I believe John. He rose from the dead, prevailing over death.

3:11 in the section of "the things WHICH ARE" (that is, on the earth)]..

We all agree that there were 7 churches to whom John sent the book.

meaning, at a point in time when "all of humanity" was in one of those three places...

Yes, of course, no other place human's could be except perhaps "in transit."

The whole point was what Jesus asked me: "why was I not found worthy (to open the seals) in that first search?" The reason is simple: Jesus had not yet fulfilled all that was required to become "the redeemer." He had not yet risen from the dead.

is not giving us the idea that the "24 elders" represent "all of humanity" as you are suggesting,

I don't think I have suggested that.

My whole point is chapters 4 & 5 give us time stamps running up to the time Jesus opened the first seal. I think wondering about who the 24 elders are is a distraction. The real point is, jesus prevailed over death and became the redeemer of all who turn to Him.

Hmm. When do YOU think Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down?
Not around 32 AD?

 

[posthuman]

It only means in one moment He KNEW NO sin, and then BECAME sin after time. Time passed and things changed. He was completing what was required to become the Redeemer.

is the Creator subject to His creation?
does the creation have authority over the Creator?

you need to approach the Bible with respect for God.
you're wrong. blasphemy is a huge clue that you do not have the right interpretation. you should never allow yourself to hold any view that blasphemes God. you need to acquire the maturity to accept that and look for the right view.

 

[ewq1938]

There is no verse that specify's a second search. But there is also no verse that prevents a second search.

Wrong. No verse mentioning a second search means there wasn't one. Jesus shows up after the search failed and he is instantly recognized as being worthy to open the seals and he does so right then.

Since the search John watched ended in failure, a second search is logical.

It is illogical because a search wasn't needed. It's like a search party looking for a missing child, they search to find the child but fail but then the child walks out of the woods and they see him. That isn't a second search.

Read Jesus' question to me again:

“John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Jesus is confirming what I have said all along: that first search ended. It is the very reason John wept much. Why don't YOU try and answer HIS question?

This has already been discussed.

Just more human imagination, ignoring the text. John TELLS US: The answer is NOT "arriving."

You are wrong. The text does show Christ arriving after the first search ended. He ascended. Even you said so before so you are contradicting yourself.

"He arrived" in the throne room later, AFTER He was found worthy: just as the gospel's show us: death, burial, resurrection, ascension. Why would anyone not believe this order of events?

That is the order I have presented not what you present. You claim Jesus was not worthy but this is false. He was always worthy, he just wasn't in heaven yet.

Stick with John's order of events: The prevailing (I submit over death) came first, just as the gospel's show it. THEN, after He rose from the dead, He ascended and "showed up" in heaven. WE get this same order of events in every gospel!

And that is what I have presented. You even argued against the showing up/arriving part yet here you are presenting it as I did.

You said:

The answer is NOT "arriving."

And also:

He ascended and "showed up" in heaven.

LOL....you are confused.

 

[ewq1938]

Dude until you fear God and reject any interpretation that diminishes Him, calling Him unworthy or powerless or ignorant, you are never going to understand anything you are reading in scripture.

You need to fix that before we can discuss anything else on this topic.

Amen.

 

[ewq1938]

Was He the redeemer BEFORE He shed blood? NO! Was He the redeemer as a baby? NO!

YES! Even before he was incarnated:

Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

[posthuman]

time is a created thing

God is not subject to time

we have to understand that to comprehend scripture that talks about Him. in John 17, praying in Gethsemane, He says "i am no longer in the world" -- wait, what???

we will never comprehend things like this when we imagine God is subject to His own creation! Revelation 5 has past, present and future in it -- The Lamb is in the midst of the throne - we're not talking about a creation; we're talking about The Creator

 

[posthuman]

we're talking about The Creator

@lamad have respect for Him!!!

 

[posthuman]

Read Jesus' question to me again:

“John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

IMHO this is total BS

God did not say this to you

 

[posthuman]

not found

"not found"

that's the key here.

it is not that God was deficient and had to improve Himself as our friend the unrepentant blasphemer pretends to teach.
it's that God, who is a God that hides Himself ((Isaiah 45:15)), was not found, and then was seen to be in the midst of all of His throne room, both the throne and the occupants.

is eternal God 'just now showing up' or is THE ETERNAL FATHER there from the beginning but your eyes have now been opened?

there's a very, very obvious answer to that obvious question.
you either do not fear God, and you fall into error, or you fear God, and you learn wisdom. end of story.

 

[Absolutely]

Ok
He had to become the God man.
It was not necessarily hanging on " worthy" so much as what the redeemers requirements were.

You guys are thinking in terms of Jesus being diminished.

Not the case.

The answer or illumination is in Ruth.
The kinsman redeemer.

Remove the worthy/ unworthy concept for a moment and see that Jesus HAD TO BECOME A MAN (Boaz) to redeem the land.

The issue with lamad is that he thinks time went back to before the cross then fast forwarded to the throne and Jesus BECAME worthy at that moment.

I have illustrated time did not go back.

But the worthy/ unworthy dynamic lamad is mostly correct.

If you are not aware that Jesus BECAME MAN ( SOMETHING HE WAS NOT PREINCARNATE) Then it is you guys that are in error.
You are stumbling over " worthy vs unworthy"
In reality the component was God vs God man.
Jesus BECAME the God man (worthy). Just not as lamad says "time reversed"

 

[lamad]

"not found"

that's the key here.

it is not that God was deficient and had to improve Himself as our friend the unrepentant blasphemer pretends to teach.
it's that God, who is a God that hides Himself ((Isaiah 45:15)), was not found, and then was seen to be in the midst of all of His throne room, both the throne and the occupants.

is eternal God 'just now showing up' or is THE ETERNAL FATHER there from the beginning but your eyes have now been opened?

there's a very, very obvious answer to that obvious question.
you either do not fear God, and you fall into error, or you fear God, and you learn wisdom. end of story.

Why do you just make stuff up? I think you just want to argue. No one has EVER SAID that God was deficient! How silly is that? You have missed the truth by a mile.
GOD was WORD in the beginning, But at some time, the WORD became FLESH. Was He deficient before He because flesh? Was He lacking something? To imagine so would be silly.

He came to do a job, to UNDO what Adam had done. That included being obedient unto death. But was death the end? Was Jesus deficient before He died, and became "ficient" after? No, He was completing what He came to do, become the Redeemer. You could quote a dozen OT verses where He was called the Redeemer. God always "calls those things that be not as though they were." He BECAME the redeemer through His death and resurrection.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

You want HIm to be the redeemer BEFORE HE SHED HIS BLOOD! How silly is that? Yes, He was CALLED the Redeemer, looking forward in time to when He would BECOME the redeemer. Was He "deficient" before He shed His blood and BECAME "ficient" AFTER? That would be silly. NOTHING CHANGED IN HIS WORTH before He shed blood or after. But the truth is, NO ONE'S SINS WERE REMITTED until He died. As Paul said, the New Testament could not come into effect UNTIL the "testator" died.
Did Jesus' worth change from before He died to after He died? Again, silliness. NO ONE is saying that! How do you come up with such things? Did Jesus "worth" change from before His resurrection to after His resurrection? NO! He was and always will be the second person of the Godhead. WHO HE WAS has never changed.

You insist that Jesus was not seen "because He hides Himself." It is silliness. This is HIS BOOK and HIS REVEALING! He is NOT HIDING in Revelation. But the truth is, When Jesus gave up the spirit it was the second person of the Godhead DISGUISED as a human spirit that descended down into hell to take the keys. I guess one could say that was Jesus did under the earth was hidden from those on the earth. But the fact is, scripture TELLS US.

is eternal God 'just now showing up' or is THE ETERNAL FATHER there from the beginning but your eyes have now been opened?

Wow. Yet another non sequitur! We have never been talking about the FAther. We have been talking about the SON. By the way, WHO was Jesus hiding from when He died? Perhaps hiding from the Father? This was a vision given to John and we can believe every tiny part of it is EXACTLY as God wanted it.

I will have to tell you what Jesus told me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

He might well have been talking to you. You can't answer one question, and worse yet deny that He asked them. All you have come up with for arguments is Non Sequitur or red herrings. It is for sure you don't understand this part of John's vision. My guess is, you probably think the first seal is the Antichrist. If so, you would be wrong.

 

[lamad]

Ok
He had to become the God man.
It was not necessarily hanging on " worthy" so much as what the redeemers requirements were.

You guys are thinking in terms of Jesus being diminished.

Not the case.

The answer or illumination is in Ruth.
The kinsman redeemer.

Remove the worthy/ unworthy concept for a moment and see that Jesus HAD TO BECOME A MAN (Boaz) to redeem the land.

The issue with lamad is that he thinks time went back to before the cross then fast forwarded to the throne and Jesus BECAME worthy at that moment.

I have illustrated time did not go back.

But the worthy/ unworthy dynamic lamad is mostly correct.

If you are not aware that Jesus BECAME MAN ( SOMETHING HE WAS NOT PREINCARNATE) Then it is you guys that are in error.
You are stumbling over " worthy vs unworthy"
In reality the component was God vs God man.
Jesus BECAME the God man (worthy). Just not as lamad says "time reversed"

Finally! A breath of fresh air!

I have never used the term "reversed." A vision can be of the past, present or future, all all of them mixed. All I am saying is, God started this vision while Jesus was on the earth or under the earth. He wanted to show John the book, but He wanted to show it while the book was still in the hand of the Father. Since Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended, God had to start this vision BEFORE Jesus ascended for context. He started by showing a throne room with Jesus not seen, the Holy Spirit still there and not yet sent down, a search for someone who could legally open the seals that ended in failure, then later we read that Jesus had "prevailed" as someone who could take the book and open the seals. What did Jesus prevail over so He could open the seals? I think it is telling us He prevailed over death. After all, He did rise from the dead some little time before He sent Mary away and ascended. Him prevailing over death FITS.

Thanks for a good post!

 

[lamad]

IMHO this is total BS

God did not say this to you

So a brother in Christ tells you Jesus spoke to Him, and even writes down the words spoken, and you can't believe it. Brother, that is on you, not on me. Just as Jesus said, until you can answer His questions correctly, you are never going to understand this part of John's vision. Again, that is on you.

 

[lamad]

@lamad have respect for Him!!!

posthuman: UNDERSTAND HIM!!!

 

[lamad]

time is a created thing

God is not subject to time

we have to understand that to comprehend scripture that talks about Him. in John 17, praying in Gethsemane, He says "i am no longer in the world" -- wait, what???

we will never comprehend things like this when we imagine God is subject to His own creation! Revelation 5 has past, present and future in it -- The Lamb is in the midst of the throne - we're not talking about a creation; we're talking about The Creator

So you imagine while Jesus was on the earth walking as a man, He was not subject to time? You probably think He never slept! The truth is, around 32 years OF TIME passed while the second person of the Godhood was on earth as a man. Three days and three nights of prophesied time passed. Jesus COULD NOT Have risen in the first day or the second day: He was subject to the prophecy!

No longer? Jesus is pulling a God thing: "calling those things that be not as though they already were." Very soon after this prayer He was was no longer in the world.

 

[lamad]

YES! Even before he was incarnated:

Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

God "calling those things that be not as though they were." He became the redeemer through shedding His blood, His obedience to death, and His resurrection. I think you know this.