When Jesus died, what kind of saints were resurrected ?

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When Jesus died, what kind of persons were resurrected ?

  • OLD TESTEMENT SAINTS

    Votes: 9 52.9%
  • SAINTS THAT DIED IN JESUS TIME

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • NOT SURE

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • OTHER

    Votes: 3 17.6%

  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .
Sorry LT, if its any consolation I once was a Christian does count for something? :) Say, I have a old hard back book, found it on amazon awhile back. Unfortunately for me after I paid 25 cabbages for it I found it online. But fortunately for you it can be found online for the low low price of FREE. I double dog dare you to read the book by Isaac Ben Abraham of Troki Faith Strengthened by Isaac Troki . It, I think, will strengthen your faith, one way or the other.
 
so there are in heaven alraedy so Jesus will be coming back with them from heaven when He comes again ?
I didn't think scripture addresses this, am I missing something? I think there is much about the specifics of the return of Christ to judge the world that we are not plainly told, and when we don't take some things on faith, but guess about what God is telling us we take too much of a chance that we get it wrong. Just as parents don't always tell very young children everything, just what they need to know, in the same say our God tells us what we need to know and we must take the rest on faith. "Coming back with them from heaven" is simply something I don't know, do you have a scripture?
 
I didn't think scripture addresses this, am I missing something? I think there is much about the specifics of the return of Christ to judge the world that we are not plainly told, and when we don't take some things on faith, but guess about what God is telling us we take too much of a chance that we get it wrong. Just as parents don't always tell very young children everything, just what they need to know, in the same say our God tells us what we need to know and we must take the rest on faith. "Coming back with them from heaven" is simply something I don't know, do you have a scripture?


the bible does not say that this was the old testament nor new testament saints niether that they went to heaven .
 
I didn't think scripture addresses this, am I missing something? I think there is much about the specifics of the return of Christ to judge the world that we are not plainly told, and when we don't take some things on faith, but guess about what God is telling us we take too much of a chance that we get it wrong. Just as parents don't always tell very young children everything, just what they need to know, in the same say our God tells us what we need to know and we must take the rest on faith. "Coming back with them from heaven" is simply something I don't know, do you have a scripture?


i believe this was a vision of all saints from Genesis to when Jesus comes again for His sints who will enter the Holy city or Bew Jerusalem
 
I didn't think scripture addresses this, am I missing something? I think there is much about the specifics of the return of Christ to judge the world that we are not plainly told, and when we don't take some things on faith, but guess about what God is telling us we take too much of a chance that we get it wrong. Just as parents don't always tell very young children everything, just what they need to know, in the same say our God tells us what we need to know and we must take the rest on faith. "Coming back with them from heaven" is simply something I don't know, do you have a scripture?

The event was a vision of the future things to come there is a clue in the verse itself that says so
 
the bible does not say that this was the old testament nor new testament saints niether that they went to heaven .
You are right, it doesn't specify. And I don't think that God says this is NT and this is OT, that was done by men. But it is before Christ was crucified and after Christ was crucified. Even though the bible does not say that before Christ was crucified, man that belonged in God's family lived on in this way, and after Christ was crucified they lived in a different way. Yet every time scripture talks of physical death before Christ was crucified it spoke of it in one way, after it spoke of it in another way. And something profound happened to man at the time the curtain was ripped, and happened to the people who had physically died before.

We have only to determine what scripture means by the Holy City. Scripture talks of the mansions prepared for us.

Although there are symbols of spiritual things used in the bible to explain the spiritual, even so the bible is very specific. We are not to read into what it says more than what God meant. Because it is about the spiritual, we can not discount that it is also literal. There was a literal happening to the saints when the curtain split, and these were people who had physically gone on to another life.
 
Where are those saints now ?

These were saints that had recently died, and who could be easily recognized by many, hence proving that God can not only raise His Son from the dead, but anyone He wishes. These saints were resurrected back to mortal life (they were not "vivified" as is used in reference to life of immortality). They died again as did Lazarus and all others that were resurrected from the dead by Jesus and the apostles.

These people who arose out of the graves were resurrected to physical life (and not with spiritual bodies) — just like Lazarus. This was another of the spectacular events that the people of Jerusalem witnessed and would have talked about for years. It would have marked this moment in history in the minds of those who live in Jerusalem.

All the events of the crucifixion and resurrection had a profound impact on those in Jerusalem. The events of Lazarus physical resurrection, the earthquake at Jesus’ crucifixion, Jesus’ resurrection and the physical resurrection of those in Matthew 27:52–53 (which took place AFTER Jesus’ resurrection, verse 53), all together helped convince those in that city that something remarkable had happened and it attracted the attention of many to investigate further.
All of the miraculous events of those few days opened the minds of many to receive the Gospel of Peter and the other apostles after Pentecost.
“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
• Acts 2:41​
​
Later the total was up to 5,000 men (Acts 4:4), which means there were likely an equal number of women and even children. Many priests were likewise convinced:
“And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.”
• Acts 6:7​
​
Eventually tens of thousands were converted (Acts 21:20).
 
These were saints that had recently died, and who could be easily recognized by many, hence proving that God can not only raise His Son from the dead, but anyone He wishes. These saints were resurrected back to mortal life (they were not "vivified" as is used in reference to life of immortality). They died again as did Lazarus and all others that were resurrected from the dead by Jesus and the apostles. ).
Scripture does not say these saints recently died. It does not say they were easily recognized by many. God operates in exact ways and says what we are to know, how can you say they recently died?
 
Scripture does not say these saints recently died. It does not say they were easily recognized by many. God operates in exact ways and says what we are to know, how can you say they recently died?

there was a purpose for resurrecting these saints, and that was to make the people believe and be added to the church of God. How would have they recognized the old testament saints, when they have not seen any of them in their whole life??? the raised saints would have to go and tell everyone that they are the old testament saints. Do u think people would have believed them???

But you are right, scripture does not say whether they died recently or whether they are old testament saints.
 
In Acts 2:29-30 Peter says...

29"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30"And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE

David was a man after God's heart so I think he would've be considered a saint from ancient Israel...but I think Peter is talking as if David was still dead here after Christ's resurrection (at least that's what I get from the passage).

Also In Daniel 12:13, the angels tell him that he will rise with his lot at the end of days...and if anyone was a saint, Daniel had to be.

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

So I don't think it was these first saints...Christ DOES say "the last shall be first and the first shall be last", so maybe that saying applies in this instance too.
 
so there are in heaven alraedy so Jesus will be coming back with them from heaven when He comes again ?

Read revelation and there is written who will resurrect 1st and who last.At last Judgement,we are going to get our new bodies,the same one as Adam and Eve had before fall until they were in Paradise.And in next post i will explain u trough Divine Liturgy.
 
On the First and Second Resurrection

St. Epiphanios of Cyprus - Homily on Great and Holy Saturday

Every aspect of the Church’s liturgical life teaches us something about our own spiritual life. This is abundantly clear above all in the awesome services of Holy Week and Pascha, in which, while glorifying the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, we learn the meaning of our own resurrection: resurrection from spiritual death to Christian life in this world, and resurrection to eternal life with Christ after our death.

Why do we call the service on Holy Saturday morning the “First Resurrection” (i Proti Anastasis)? For two reasons:

1.At this Divine Liturgy, we read the first announcement of the Resurrection of Christ in the Holy Gospel, as recorded by St. Matthew (Matt. 28), in which the angels roll back the stone and tell the Myrrh-bearing Women that He is Risen.


2.On the day of Holy Saturday, we remember that, as He slept in the Tomb in the body, Our Lord went down to Hades in His human soul united to His divinity, and there he resurrected the souls of all the righteous from the beginning of the world, who had waited sorrowing for ages, looking forward in hope to the coming of the Christ.


This raising up of the souls in Hades preceding the resurrection of Christ’s Body from the Tomb is linked most intimately to the First and Second Resurrection which each one of us must experience in our own lives: We must receive the First Resurrection - the resurrection of the soul - in this life, so that we can receive the Second Resurrection - the resurrection of the body - at the end of the world unto eternal life and rejoicing and not unto eternal condemnation!

Our First Resurrection takes place in Holy Baptism, when the grace of God transforms us from corruptible and mortal creatures to members of the Immortal Body of Christ. We must constantly, throughout our lifetimes on earth, preserve and re-live this First Resurrection - of the soul - through lives of repentance and obedience to Christ’s Gospel. We must constantly receive this Resurrection through the Holy Mysteries and the sanctifying life of the Church’s Liturgy and Her entire praxis.

If we retain the grace of this First Resurrection - that of the soul - until the death of our bodies, then death itself becomes the passage to eternal life. The Christian experiences “a Christian ending to our life, painless, blameless, and peaceful,” and the soul is placed in Paradise to await the Great and General Resurrection of the body on the Last Day.

At this Second Resurrection, the bodies of all who have ever lived will be raised and re-united to their souls. For those who received and preserved the First Resurrection, this Second Resurrection will be unto perfect happiness in union with Christ for all eternity. For those who did not receive the First Resurrection, or who did receive it but rejected it, this Second Resurrection will be unto eternal torment of body and soul.

Let us so live that we can rejoice to hear the sweet voice of Christ: “ Come ye blessed of My Father; inherit theKingdom prepared for you from all eternity!” Here is how St. Epiphanios describes His greeting to Adam and Eve, as He raised them from Hades on that first Great and Holy Saturday:
Rise, let us leave this place. The enemy led you of the earthly Paradise. I will not restore you to that Paradise, but I will enthrone you in Heaven. I forbade you the tree that was only a symbol of life, but see, I who am Life itself am now one with you. The Bridal Chamber is adorned, the banquet is ready, the eternal dwelling places are prepared, the treasure houses of all good things lie open.

 
Are you a Jew ? they were scattered all over the world


Sorry, but I can only trace my family from early 1800's back to Prussia, Finland, Norway and France. My aunt I think was Jewish by marriage, or so I've been told. I remember her speaking on the phone with friends from where she called the 'old country" what I was told by others was Finn, but today I think it was yiddish, I could be wrong though. But outside of that I'm just a cheesehead. No Isdaniel, I'm what the bible would call a sojourner who sojourns with Israel.

And when a stranger shall sojourn with you, and will keep the Passover to Yehovah, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land; for no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One law shall be for him who is native born, and for the stranger who sojourns among you.

Also the sons of the stranger, who join themselves to Yehovah, to serve him, and to love the name of Yehovah, to be his servants, every one who keeps the sabbath and does not profane it, and all who hold fast to my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

Thus says Yehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men from the nations of every language, shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, We will go with you; for we have heard that God is with you.



 
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Sorry, but I can only trace my family from early 1800's back to Prussia, Finland, Norway and France. My aunt I think was Jewish by marriage, or so I've been told. I remember her speaking on the phone with friends from where she called the 'old country" what I was told by others was Finn, but today I think it was yiddish, I could be wrong though. But outside of that I'm just a cheesehead. No Isdaniel, I'm what the bible would call a sojourner who sojourns with Israel.

And when a stranger shall sojourn with you, and will keep the Passover to Yehovah, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land; for no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One law shall be for him who is native born, and for the stranger who sojourns among you.

Also the sons of the stranger, who join themselves to Yehovah, to serve him, and to love the name of Yehovah, to be his servants, every one who keeps the sabbath and does not profane it, and all who hold fast to my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

Thus says Yehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men from the nations of every language, shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, We will go with you; for we have heard that God is with you.





So do you believe all Paul writtings ?
 
No sir, I don't. After reading it I think it's uninspired writing by someone caught twisting words to suit his own religion. But hey thats just me.

Let me clarify something too. When I said there are some things Jesus said I agree with and some I don't. I base my decision on what I can verify in Torah. Take divorce for instance.

Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

That is something I can agree with. It's in Torah.

But then in the next verse (Matthew 5:3)2 he is purported to have said something I can't find in Torah.


32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Frankly the 'church' should do a study and find out why verse 32 of the Greek manuscripts and translation got inserted into the text and give some serious thought about how is it they can actually teach this. Because to be honest I doubt Jesus, being a Jewish man who had knowledge of and taught Torah would have ever said taught such a thing. That being said even after having read the Hebrew/English translation of Matthew I am unsure of what is being said concerning adultery as it appears fragmented as if some text is missing. However even though the Hebrew/English text is hard to understand one thing is certainly clear it in no way accuses a divorced woman or her new husband of adultery.


But when I read this Greek/English New Testement teaching. I found it contrary to God's torah, general human decency, as well as a crushing burden placed upon the shoulders of a divorced woman or a potential new husband. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me this teaching (v. 32) states a women is guilty of adultery simply because she was divorced by her husband for reasons other than fornication. Additionally, should she marry another man then they are both considered by your christian church guilty of adultery. That is utter nonsense, am I really expected to believe a divorced woman can be accused of adultery and expected to remain alone the rest of her life because any man fearing the same accusation would steer clear of such condemnation? On top of that all of this is because of the action of a former husband? I think not!

So, allow me to retort. The source for divorce is in Deuteronomy 24:1 which states: When a man has taken a wife, and married her, and it comes to pass that she finds no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her; then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. It goes on further and states in the very next verse this woman is now permitted to be another man's wife. Nothing makes any mention of repercussion, accusations, guilt, adultery or stoning.

According to Torah the woman is permitted to marry another man. Because the action and document of divorce dissolves the marriage covenant and relationship absolving both parties of any and all responsibilities to each other. She is, for lack of better words a 'free agent'. On a side note according to God's torah Deuteronomy 24:4 the man and woman if they reconcile their differences may marry again provided the woman had not since the divorce married or divorced another man.

It is my understanding of God's torah that adultery is when a man, married or not, takes another mans wife and lies with her. And it's very clear according to God's ways if a woman is not married whether it be from lack of opportunity, a desire not to be or has been given a bill of divorcement, she cannot in anyway shape or form be considered any man's wife. How then can someone say the woman who has been divorced or the man who might later marry her should be guilty of adultery? Furthermore Ezekiel 18 makes it very clear to me each individual is responsible for their own actions or inactions. Which brings me to another question? How can a former husband who no longer has any marital ties or responsibilities towards the woman be the cause of her sin?

Is it right to expect a women of spousal abuse to stay firm and take it throughout such a relationship? If she is divorced from her abuser for reasons other than fornication is the only other alternative now to live life accused of being an adulteress? Absolutely not! Some interpret Devarim 24:1 teaching that sexual immorality is merely an example of what could go wrong in a marriage. The operative part being the first part of the verse, “she does not find grace in his eyes.” Which is considered by some to mean that even though the couple may be faithful to each other, a marriage as a whole can sometimes become intolerable to both parties because of the hardness of their stoney little hearts. Well, thankfully those evil Rabbis, Pharisees and children of the devil and whatever other anti-semetic crap christians love spewing blah blah blah etc etc... in these instances did the decent thing and permitted divorce as long as both husband and wife agreed to it. However according to Torah it is still the husband who must give the divorce papers to the wife. But all is not lost, even though the wife can not hand her husband a bill of divorce she has the right to initiate divorce proceedings if it became intolerable for her. If the rabbis felt the wife's divorce request was warranted, especially under extreme circumstances they would even go so far as to have the husband beaten until he agreed to give his wife the divorce. Now hows that for justice! Blessed be the peacemakers!
 
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No sir, I don't. After reading it I think it's uninspired writing by someone caught twisting words to suit his own religion. But hey thats just me.

Let me clarify something too. When I said there are some things Jesus said I agree with and some I don't. I base my decision on what I can verify in Torah. Take divorce for instance.

Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

That is something I can agree with. It's in Torah.

But then in the next verse (Matthew 5:3)2 he is purported to have said something I can't find in Torah.


32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Frankly the 'church' should do a study and find out why verse 32 of the Greek manuscripts and translation got inserted into the text and give some serious thought about how is it they can actually teach this. Because to be honest I doubt Jesus, being a Jewish man who had knowledge of and taught Torah would have ever said taught such a thing. That being said even after having read the Hebrew/English translation of Matthew I am unsure of what is being said concerning adultery as it appears fragmented as if some text is missing. However even though the Hebrew/English text is hard to understand one thing is certainly clear it in no way accuses a divorced woman or her new husband of adultery.


But when I read this Greek/English New Testement teaching. I found it contrary to God's torah, general human decency, as well as a crushing burden placed upon the shoulders of a divorced woman or a potential new husband. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me this teaching (v. 32) states a women is guilty of adultery simply because she was divorced by her husband for reasons other than fornication. Additionally, should she marry another man then they are both considered by your christian church guilty of adultery. That is utter nonsense, am I really expected to believe a divorced woman can be accused of adultery and expected to remain alone the rest of her life because any man fearing the same accusation would steer clear of such condemnation? On top of that all of this is because of the action of a former husband? I think not!

So, allow me to retort. The source for divorce is in Deuteronomy 24:1 which states: When a man has taken a wife, and married her, and it comes to pass that she finds no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her; then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. It goes on further and states in the very next verse this woman is now permitted to be another man's wife. Nothing makes any mention of repercussion, accusations, guilt, adultery or stoning.

According to Torah the woman is permitted to marry another man. Because the action and document of divorce dissolves the marriage covenant and relationship absolving both parties of any and all responsibilities to each other. She is, for lack of better words a 'free agent'. On a side note according to God's torah Deuteronomy 24:4 the man and woman if they reconcile their differences may marry again provided the woman had not since the divorce married or divorced another man.

It is my understanding of God's torah that adultery is when a man, married or not, takes another mans wife and lies with her. And it's very clear according to God's ways if a woman is not married whether it be from lack of opportunity, a desire not to be or has been given a bill of divorcement, she cannot in anyway shape or form be considered any man's wife. How then can someone say the woman who has been divorced or the man who might later marry her should be guilty of adultery? Furthermore Ezekiel 18 makes it very clear to me each individual is responsible for their own actions or inactions. Which brings me to another question? How can a former husband who no longer has any marital ties or responsibilities towards the woman be the cause of her sin?

Is it right to expect a women of spousal abuse to stay firm and take it throughout such a relationship? If she is divorced from her abuser for reasons other than fornication is the only other alternative now to live life accused of being an adulteress? Absolutely not! Some interpret Devarim 24:1 teaching that sexual immorality is merely an example of what could go wrong in a marriage. The operative part being the first part of the verse, “she does not find grace in his eyes.” Which is considered by some to mean that even though the couple may be faithful to each other, a marriage as a whole can sometimes become intolerable to both parties because of the hardness of their stoney little hearts. Well, thankfully those evil Rabbis, Pharisees and children of the devil and whatever other anti-semetic crap christians love spewing blah blah blah etc etc... in these instances did the decent thing and permitted divorce as long as both husband and wife agreed to it. However according to Torah it is still the husband who must give the divorce papers to the wife. But all is not lost, even though the wife can not hand her husband a bill of divorce she has the right to initiate divorce proceedings if it became intolerable for her. If the rabbis felt the wife's divorce request was warranted, especially under extreme circumstances they would even go so far as to have the husband beaten until he agreed to give his wife the divorce. Now hows that for justice! Blessed be the peacemakers!
How did no one answer this yet?
Jesus was not speaking about legality, but was speaking about how God keeps His promises.
God always keeps His promises perfectly, and anyone who does not keep their promises is guilty of not being perfect, which is the standard of godliness, because God is perfect. Jesus redefines adultery to be anything that is twisted away from God's perfection.
Remember, Jesus does not condemn the adulteress, but forgives her. A person will only be forgiven if they accept that they have sinned. Jesus just further explains how pervasive sin truly is in our lives, and how unobtainable God's perfection is for us without God's grace.
Jesus was not teaching the Law (Torah), but was teaching about God directly, beyond what was revealed of God in the Torah.

Jesus shows us that sin is not just failing to fulfill all the Law, but sin is failing to fulfill the spirit of the Law (which is love). The spirit of the Law produces absolute perfection, which are the ways of God. Jesus was the only human to ever obtain this.
 
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How did no one answer this yet?
Jesus was not speaking about legality, but was speaking about how God keeps His promises.
God always keeps His promises perfectly, and anyone who does not keep their promises is guilty of not being perfect, which is the standard of godliness, because God is perfect. Jesus redefines adultery to be anything that is twisted away from God's perfection.
Remember, Jesus does not condemn the adulteress, but forgives her. A person will only be forgiven if they accept that they have sinned. Jesus just further explains how pervasive sin truly is in our lives, and how unobtainable God's perfection is for us without God's grace.
Jesus was not teaching the Law (Torah), but was teaching about God directly, beyond what was revealed of God in the Torah.

Jesus shows us that sin is not just failing to fulfill all the Law, but sin is failing to fulfill the spirit of the Law (which is love). The spirit of the Law produces absolute perfection, which are the ways of God. Jesus was the only human to ever obtain this.

LT keeping vows and promises is an entirely different subject. This is a teaching where Jesus says a husband who divorces his wife except for grounds of fornication causes her to be an adultress and goes further on to say that the man who might marry her later is adulterer too! But according to the Torah a divorced women is not considered an adultress and neither is the man who marries her. Im not saying divorce is good or should be taken lightly. But why Jesus would teach something which conflicts with Torah baffles me therefore its something I cannot agree with. But you will only find this witten in the Greek versions. In the Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew Jesus does not teach it.

Ever ask a christian couple husband and or wife if they have been married before, watch their reaction carefully, they have been caught! Ever wonder why the church gets its panties in a wad when a divorced women wants to marry again? Its because of this teaching LT, the church would perceived as condoning an adulteress relationship. According to Torah when a woman is divorced she is 'free agent' and is able remarry without whispering and gossip about being a hussy. Not saying it happens all the time but it does happen. As I said used to be a christian so I speak fro experience
 
How did no one answer this yet?
Jesus was not speaking about legality, but was speaking about how God keeps His promises.
God always keeps His promises perfectly, and anyone who does not keep their promises is guilty of not being perfect, which is the standard of godliness, because God is perfect. Jesus redefines adultery to be anything that is twisted away from God's perfection.
Remember, Jesus does not condemn the adulteress, but forgives her. A person will only be forgiven if they accept that they have sinned. Jesus just further explains how pervasive sin truly is in our lives, and how unobtainable God's perfection is for us without God's grace.
Jesus was not teaching the Law (Torah), but was teaching about God directly, beyond what was revealed of God in the Torah.

Jesus shows us that sin is not just failing to fulfill all the Law, but sin is failing to fulfill the spirit of the Law (which is love). The spirit of the Law produces absolute perfection, which are the ways of God. Jesus was the only human to ever obtain this.
Every time someone repeats these truths from scripture, I sort of cringe. It is truth, every bit of it. Yet time after time I read that these truths mean that we must ditch the written law, the written law is ONLY legalistic law, or that Christ did not tell us to obey the law in all ways, even with our love and spirit, but somehow, when they get done explaining it, we can break the written law and put in love instead. So when you add that Jesus was not teaching the Torah, it is going too far. Christ taught the Torah, Christ just went beyond the Torah to explain it as Law that must include love.
 
Every time someone repeats these truths from scripture, I sort of cringe. It is truth, every bit of it. Yet time after time I read that these truths mean that we must ditch the written law, the written law is ONLY legalistic law, or that Christ did not tell us to obey the law in all ways, even with our love and spirit, but somehow, when they get done explaining it, we can break the written law and put in love instead. So when you add that Jesus was not teaching the Torah, it is going too far. Christ taught the Torah, Christ just went beyond the Torah to explain it as Law that must include love.

I don't like hearing that the truth makes you cringe. XD but I know what you were saying.
I didn't say that Jesus contradicted the Torah; I said He was teaching about God directly. I think you read "licence" into my post, when it wasn't actually there lol.
Jesus proved that no man was sinless, because all men fall short of God's glory. That is all I was trying to explain.