E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
lol, who says taking it literally is not biblical? come on now bro, I know you can do better than this.
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lol, who says taking it literally is not biblical? come on now bro, I know you can do better than this.
A
Abiding
Guest
EG God calls them Jacob or Israel. It has meaning. They are not synonyms
What if Israel was where they appeared not to be?
If the elect are to be gathered from the four winds?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
What? that God does not know where they are? I do not understand.
and who did the prophet ezekial say would be gathered from the 4 winds? And what did he say would happen after he gathered them?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
yes it does have meaning.
the context is isreal the nation. not spiritual isreal. the context of spiritual isreal was taken care of in chapter 9.
in chapter 11:
Isreal.
1. Pauls nation God has not cast away (vs 1-2)
2. Not gained what it wanted (vs 7-10)
3. They fell. so salvation could come to gentiles. which hopefully would provoke them to jealosy (vs 11)
4. Ther fall riches to the world. and salvation to the gentiles (vs 12)
5. Paul spoke to gentiles, hoping to cause jelosy to save some of his people (vs 14)
6. They wer cast away, so salvation could come to the world (vs 15)
7. They are the natural branches (vs 17)]
8. We (gentiles) are warned not to boast against them (vs 18)
9. They were cut off due to unbelief (vs 20)
10. They are blind in part (vs 25)
11. All of them will be saved (vs 26)
12. God will deliver them and turn them from their ungodliness (vs 27)
13. They are my enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved concerning the election (vs 28)
14. They are disobedient, and just like you were were chown mercy, they will be shown mercy also (vs 31)
15. God has committed them to disobedience (vs 32)
The WHOLE chapter separates Isreal from gentile. saved or unsaved. Completely different from chapter 9. where it is all concerning salvation. there is neither jew or greek..
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
This is speaking of God punishing gentiles for treating Isreal badly while under their care for sin. God restoring all the people to her land, removing their ungodliness, and having them in peace.. No longer fearing their neighbor..
This is speaking of the end of time. AFTER the kingdom
yes we have, and nothing has changed.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
A
Abiding
Guest
Actually 9 seperates Israel from Israel, but you always ignore that.
Jacob is never talking about spiritual Israel to my knowledge.
which helps with 11:26-27
Tell me why you think 11:26-27 shifts from Israel to Jacob in one sentance and how does that make sense
with 9:6-8 and beyond?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
ez 37:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’
Do you think you are cut off?? why would Isreal say they are cut off?? see romans 11, this is the jealosy Paul spoke of.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— [SUP]19 [/SUP]say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’
Speaks of the divided kingdoms of the north and south being reunited again.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
This is not the new jerusalem. this is the whole land of Canaan, the land promised Abraham
and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
Only Isreal was ever devided into two kingdoms. Gods true children (saved people) have been one unit since adam was first saved.They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
1. Only Isreal was scattered because of her sin. so it can;t be all saved people. I was never scattered becdause of sin, no gentile was
2. Isreal is still in idolotry, still playing with detestable things and still in all kinds of uncleanness.. Zone shows us this every day. so this should not be in question
they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children,
1. This is the land where abraham dwelt. not a land which is a new land in the future
2. Childrens children. there will be people born in this time. Not so in rev 21.. there will be no births, and abraham did not live in the new jerusalem.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”
The nations are us..
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’
Do you think you are cut off?? why would Isreal say they are cut off?? see romans 11, this is the jealosy Paul spoke of.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— [SUP]19 [/SUP]say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’
Speaks of the divided kingdoms of the north and south being reunited again.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
This is not the new jerusalem. this is the whole land of Canaan, the land promised Abraham
and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
Only Isreal was ever devided into two kingdoms. Gods true children (saved people) have been one unit since adam was first saved.They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
1. Only Isreal was scattered because of her sin. so it can;t be all saved people. I was never scattered becdause of sin, no gentile was
2. Isreal is still in idolotry, still playing with detestable things and still in all kinds of uncleanness.. Zone shows us this every day. so this should not be in question
they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children,
1. This is the land where abraham dwelt. not a land which is a new land in the future
2. Childrens children. there will be people born in this time. Not so in rev 21.. there will be no births, and abraham did not live in the new jerusalem.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”
The nations are us..
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
S
stek
Guest
[h=2]e·lect[/h] /ɪˈlɛkt/ Show Spelled [ih-lekt] Show IPA verb (used with object) 1. to choose or select by vote, as for an office: to elect a mayor. Antonyms: reject.
2. to determine in favor of (a method, course of action, etc.). Antonyms: reject.
3. to pick out; choose: First-year students may elect French, Spanish, or German.
4. Theology . (of God) to select for divine mercy or favor, especially for salvation.
Paul clearly states that salvation is now available to the gentiles. What I am saying that you keep arguing is after the cross the jews were not the elect. The elect would include the gentiles.
Will Israel be Saved?
Rom
11:25-27 I do not want you to be
ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has
experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come
in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn
godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away
their sins." (Is 59:20,21; 27:9)
People who become
very religious characteristically tend towards a proud elitist attitude. Who did
Jesus most commonly characterize as proud but the religious elite. And who were
the primary individuals planning Jesus' death but the religious elite. So also
throughout the history of post-Biblical institutional Christianity. The very
religious tend to be very conceited. And just as the Eleven and other Jewish
Christians had been prejudice against Gentiles, so also Christianity having been
established among the Gentiles, the Gentiles tend to disregard the Jews.
There will come a time when all Israel at that given time will be saved
- not all of Israel of all times, but the Israel which exists at the end. Can
Jews be saved apart from faith in Christ? Does God at some point lift His
requirement of faith? No. It should be obvious from this and other chapters in
Romans that to be saved under the New Covenant a person must believe in Jesus.
Rather what Paul is saying that there will come a time when the Jews as a nation
will come to believe in Christ. "On that day I
will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour
out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and
supplication. They
will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for
a firstborn son." Zec 12:9,10 And
so it also says of Christ's return, "Look, he
is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced
him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be!
Amen." Rev 1:7
And as with
all who put their faith in Christ, the Lord covenants, "I will forgive their wickedness and will remember
their sins no more." Heb
8:12
Chapter 11 The thesis of chapter 11 is that God did not cast away his people.
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
cast
That Israel has not been forever set aside is the theme of this chapter.
(1) The salvation of Paul proves that there is still a remnant ( Romans 11:1 )
(2) The doctrine of the remnant proves it ( Romans 11:2-6 ).
(3) The present national unbelief was foreseen ( Romans 11:7-10 ).
(4) Israel's unbelief is the Gentile opportunity ( Romans 11:11-25 ).
(5) Israel is judicially broken off from the good olive tree, Christ ( Romans 11:17-22 ).
(6) They are to be grafted in again ( Romans 11:23Romans 11:24 ).
(7) The promised Deliverer will come out of Zion and the nation will be saved ( Romans 11:25-29 ). That the Christian now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture. The Christian is of the heavenly seed of Abraham ; Genesis 15:5Genesis 15:6 ; Galatians 3:29 and partakes of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant. (See Scofield "Genesis 15:18") but Israel as a nation always has it own place, and is yet to have its greatest exaltation as the earthly people of God. See "Israel" Genesis 12:2 ; Romans 11:26 "Kingdom" ; Genesis 1:26-28 ; Zechariah 12:8 .
2. to determine in favor of (a method, course of action, etc.). Antonyms: reject.
3. to pick out; choose: First-year students may elect French, Spanish, or German.
4. Theology . (of God) to select for divine mercy or favor, especially for salvation.
Paul clearly states that salvation is now available to the gentiles. What I am saying that you keep arguing is after the cross the jews were not the elect. The elect would include the gentiles.
Will Israel be Saved?
Rom
11:25-27 I do not want you to be
ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has
experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come
in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn
godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away
their sins." (Is 59:20,21; 27:9)
People who become
very religious characteristically tend towards a proud elitist attitude. Who did
Jesus most commonly characterize as proud but the religious elite. And who were
the primary individuals planning Jesus' death but the religious elite. So also
throughout the history of post-Biblical institutional Christianity. The very
religious tend to be very conceited. And just as the Eleven and other Jewish
Christians had been prejudice against Gentiles, so also Christianity having been
established among the Gentiles, the Gentiles tend to disregard the Jews.
There will come a time when all Israel at that given time will be saved
- not all of Israel of all times, but the Israel which exists at the end. Can
Jews be saved apart from faith in Christ? Does God at some point lift His
requirement of faith? No. It should be obvious from this and other chapters in
Romans that to be saved under the New Covenant a person must believe in Jesus.
Rather what Paul is saying that there will come a time when the Jews as a nation
will come to believe in Christ. "On that day I
will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour
out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and
supplication. They
will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for
a firstborn son." Zec 12:9,10 And
so it also says of Christ's return, "Look, he
is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced
him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be!
Amen." Rev 1:7
And as with
all who put their faith in Christ, the Lord covenants, "I will forgive their wickedness and will remember
their sins no more." Heb
8:12
Chapter 11 The thesis of chapter 11 is that God did not cast away his people.
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
cast
That Israel has not been forever set aside is the theme of this chapter.
(1) The salvation of Paul proves that there is still a remnant ( Romans 11:1 )
(2) The doctrine of the remnant proves it ( Romans 11:2-6 ).
(3) The present national unbelief was foreseen ( Romans 11:7-10 ).
(4) Israel's unbelief is the Gentile opportunity ( Romans 11:11-25 ).
(5) Israel is judicially broken off from the good olive tree, Christ ( Romans 11:17-22 ).
(6) They are to be grafted in again ( Romans 11:23Romans 11:24 ).
(7) The promised Deliverer will come out of Zion and the nation will be saved ( Romans 11:25-29 ). That the Christian now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture. The Christian is of the heavenly seed of Abraham ; Genesis 15:5Genesis 15:6 ; Galatians 3:29 and partakes of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant. (See Scofield "Genesis 15:18") but Israel as a nation always has it own place, and is yet to have its greatest exaltation as the earthly people of God. See "Israel" Genesis 12:2 ; Romans 11:26 "Kingdom" ; Genesis 1:26-28 ; Zechariah 12:8 .
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Ignore what? I did not ignore it, I agree.
Rom 11 is not separating them, you ignore this
Jacob and Isreal are the same.
Because Paul is talking to gentiles who probably have never heard jacob used as a term to denote Isreal.
Yet Paul quoted an OT passage, in which the nation was called Jacob. Paul did not change the OT passage and call it isreal, he would have been seen as changing scripture.
so those 15 points which prove who the isreal Paul spoke of in romans 11 is national isreal and not spiritual isreal means nothing?
Where are you when Israel are gathered and the Gentiles punished?
If it be during your journey.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
where am I? I can't know. If I am still alive, I will be where ever God has me at the time (and as Jesus said, since I am his child, if I endure to the end, i will be saved and not killed with the gentiles who are not saved) . But most likely I will be in paradise awaiting my ressurection.
Last edited by a moderator:
he's not following me
though i agree with most of what he wrote - so? LOL.(i disagree that God didn't elect SOME from israel). they wrote the NT.
you're not following God, EG.
you're dishonoring Him.
denying Christ fulfilled and accomplished Israel's salvation (He never lost One that was His).
you got some other christ and some other gospel going on.
ya just do. ya just don't seem to care.
"What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation... If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation that the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion that claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation."
-John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Brentwood TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 150.
.........................
If the church is fulfilling Israel's promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned.
Promise to Israel -
"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be
measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You
are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' -Hosea 1:10
Fulfillment the church -
"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the
riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even
us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" As He says also in Hosea:
"I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There
they shall be called sons of the living God." -Romans :22-26
Promise to Israel -
"Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained
mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say,
'You are my God!'" -Hosea 2:23
Fulfillment in the church -
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that
you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now
have obtained mercy." - 1 Peter 2:9-10
Promise to Israel -
"On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its
damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old;" -Amos 9:11
Fulfillment in the church -
Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His
name. "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I
will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are
called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.' "Known to God from eternity are
all His works. -Acts 15:14-18 In the same manner there are many Old Testament passages
referring to Israel that are in the New Testament applied directly to the church.
Spoken to Israel -
"And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and
your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see
visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those
days. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of
smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the
great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name
of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As
the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls." -Joel 2:28-32
Applied to the church -
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place..."But this
is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your
young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on
My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show
wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The
sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and
awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the
LORD Shall be saved.' -Acts 2:1,16-21
Spoken to Israel -
'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you
shall speak to the children of Israel." -Exodus 19:6
Applied to the church -
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that
you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;"
-1 Peter 2:9
Spoken to Israel -
"My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
-Ezekiel 37:27
Applied to the church -
"And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God.
As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall
be My people." -2 Cor 6:16
Spoken to Israel -
"Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for
I the LORD your God am holy." -Lev 19:2
Applied to the church -
"but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be
holy, for I am holy." -1 Peter 1:15-16
Spoken to Israel -
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house
of Israel and with the house of Judah--" -Jer 31:31
Applied to the church -
"Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood,
which is shed for you." -Luke 22:20
The New Covenant
The New Covenant is particularly problematic for the dispensationalist, as Jeremiah 31 is undeniably addressed to Israel. The New Covenant is the very heart of the Gospel, yet if the church is fulfilling the promise given to Israel under the New Covenant, dispensationalism is dead.
Ryrie, in his early writings, makes this significant statement:
If the church does not have a new covenant, then she is fulfilling Israel's promises, for it has been clearly shown that the Old Testament teaching on the new covenant is that it is for Israel. If the church is fulfilling Israel's promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere else in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned. One might well ask why there are not two aspects to the one new covenant. This is the position held by many premillennialists, but we agree that the amillennialist has every right to say of this view that it is a practical admission that the new covenant is fulfilled in and to the church.19
Dispensationalism has used various arguments to get around this insurmountable problem. Perhaps the boldest was
the concept of two New Covenants.
Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or A Pseudo-Christian Cult < click
yadayada.