Which laws are and are not valid?

[Biblelogic01]

IMO that is a matter of conscience and I see no problem with it. My problem is with those who try to impose their personal convictions on others.

Which I agree with you on this. I guess I need to re-word my posts, because sometimes it comes across as my trying to enforce something when I'm not.

During one of my rabbi's sermons he called people out who try to force Torah on others and straight up told them they are wrong and need to go back and read scripture.

 

[JesusIsAll]

oh yes...that helped

Cool image! Looks like I need to take that one home. Dis iz a stickup!

Ay, ay, ay, ay!
Oh, I am dee image bandito...

 

[MarcR]

Mercy. . .dat bees dem Messianic Jews. . .whut jes adds Jesus ta der Judaism.

What they are trying to add Jesus to is NOT Judaism; whether or not they think it is! What they are trying to add Jesus to is their own confusion.


I am a Jew who believes that Jesus (Yeshua / Salvation) is the fulfillment of Messianic prophesy.

Every Jewish believer, I have ever met, has a conservative theology similar to my own. Most attend mainstream churches on Sunday; whether or not they observe Sabbath with a Messianic congregation.

There are two types of assemblies which call themselves Messianic:

1) Jewish believers who band together to preserve their ethnic heritage. While these tend to observe the appointed times of Leviticus 23; most attend mainstream churches; and have no interest in putting anyone under the Law.

2) Gentiles masquerading as Jews without understanding. These try to put themselves and all around them under the Law; and are fixated on mispronouncing the Father's name.

 

[prayforsaving]

When Jesus came and died for us he took away the old testament laws!!! And that is the simple truth! But that does not mean that the laws that Jesus took away are okay to do. The old testament laws delivered by Moses were for the Israelite's to please God. But some of the laws such as what you should eat and wear were to differ the Israelite's from different nations. God said if you follow these laws and keep them, then you will be my chosen nation. But back to the question! The New Testament laws are what we should follow. That is what Jesus ordered and Jesus would not give laws for us, for them to be ignored!

 

[BS]

Okay, now I am confused.

Do not - it is simple!!!! In Brief :
1. When the Apostles were teaching people there was not any new testimony written yet - they wrote the books of it to make their job easier
2. All of the words which Jesus has said are from and old testimony - example Deuteronomy 6:5 and 4 Kings 24:25 and Mat 22:37 OR Lev 19:18 and Mathew 19:19
3. The main law was and is -see Revel.12:17.

And my advise is: LET the God be your teacher - have only Him for your teacher, because " thou shalt find Him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." How to let Him be your teacher? - there is the only one way - read the Bible and think with your own head and do not hurry - read and ask Him - you will see how the words will explain the words ... and you will see also how He will teach you! It is unique

 

[Biblelogic01]

When Jesus came and died for us he took away the old testament laws!!! And that is the simple truth! But that does not mean that the laws that Jesus took away are okay to do. The old testament laws delivered by Moses were for the Israelite's to please God. But some of the laws such as what you should eat and wear were to differ the Israelite's from different nations. God said if you follow these laws and keep them, then you will be my chosen nation. But back to the question! The New Testament laws are what we should follow. That is what Jesus ordered and Jesus would not give laws for us, for them to be ignored!

It's not wrong to follow Torah though.
I follow Torah, and I see Yeshua as the Messiah and I see Yeshua throughout all of Torah; the blessings, the grace, and the love. I see all of that. I do not follow it as a means of salvation, because Yeshua is the only way to salvation.
Before I even start walking in Torah, my personal trainer in high school told me to eat "Kosher", because it's a healthier diet for athletes, and my personal trainer didn't do any Torah observance. He told me that because he has a degree in nutrition and he knows what's healthy and whats not. So technically I was eating "Kosher" before I started following Torah. So am I wrong because I chose to eat "Kosher" as a healthier lifestyle? Along with that am I wrong and condemned because I choose to observe sabbath on the 7th day, and the feasts in Leviticus? Yeshua and the apostles observed this, so why can't I?

I'm not going to force this on someone, but I'm also not going to tell someone they are wrong for not doing it, and I'm not going to accept someone telling me I'm wrong because I do these things.

 

[Elin]

The way I see it is that the new cannot be put into the old to make the old better,

The new wine cannot be put into old wineskins because the old wineskins are not able to contain the new wine.

but the contents of the old can be incorporated into the new to make it complete (fulfilled).

Nope. . .the new is the fulfillment. . .the new isn't fulfilled by the old, the old is fulfilled by the new.

Slippin' an' a slidin'. . .

 

[JesusIsAll]

It's not wrong to follow Torah though.
I follow Torah, and I see Yeshua as the Messiah and I see Yeshua throughout all of Torah; the blessings, the grace, and the love. I see all of that. I do not follow it as a means of salvation, because Yeshua is the only way to salvation.
Before I even start walking in Torah, my personal trainer in high school told me to eat "Kosher", because it's a healthier diet for athletes, and my personal trainer didn't do any Torah observance. He told me that because he has a degree in nutrition and he knows what's healthy and whats not. So technically I was eating "Kosher" before I started following Torah. So am I wrong because I chose to eat "Kosher" as a healthier lifestyle? Along with that am I wrong and condemned because I choose to observe sabbath on the 7th day, and the feasts in Leviticus? Yeshua and the apostles observed this, so why can't I?

I'm not going to force this on someone, but I'm also not going to tell someone they are wrong for not doing it, and I'm not going to accept someone telling me I'm wrong because I do these things.

I've never seen people stating such observances are wrong, and at least I've never had issues with most Messianic Jews. You do get a few here and there that do the Gentile heathen diatribe, curse those who aren't doing Torah, but, in my experience, these are very few. Whatever you do in faith is simply exercising your faith, and at least Messianic Jews actually have that heritage, to know of what they speak. It's these Gentile, fake Jewish, Hebrew roots cults that start with Christianity, then pervert it with selective backwardation of legal bondage, sacred names hocus pocus, buy a yarmulke and yad on eBay, then play Jew, that irk me. It's a false, manufactured faith, claiming the Lord Jesus came to get people back to the Torah, at the heart of their cult claims. There is a war against the cross, and grace by faith, and this is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Elin]

likewise, almost (i really do not understand , i don't even know, you're background , and
what you post often appears to me not at all clear

I must own that I am not always easy to understand.

and right with Scripture.... )

That has to be shown, not alleged, to have merit.

i.e. for later pursuit, yahweh willing, the 'origin' of some beliefs. definitely not today, unless ...... (yahweh might make it so)....

so, to keep it simple>>>

"scripture, for yahweh's people, yahweh's son (yahshua), is TORAH, OT (OLD Testament)."

((p.s. i haven't structured a sentence or pickled a participle or declined a verb in over 30 years ! ))

scripture,
...... for yahweh's people, (('and')) yahweh's son(yahshua) , <<< and us. plus we have NT >>>

.............. is TORAH.

scripture is TORAH. yeshua and all yahweh's people honor TORAH as SCRIPTURE, unchanged.

the apostles all taught and proved((the GOSPEL:GOOD NEWS)) yahshua IS THE MESSIAH, from TORAH.

Are you sure you have the right group for denying Scripture?

I know of no NT believer who denies the OT is Scripture. . .if that is your point,
however, I do know believers of the OT who deny all of the NT is Scripture.

 

[JesusIsAll]

The new wine cannot be put into old wineskins because the old wineskins are not able to contain the new wine.


Nope. . .the new is the fulfillment. . .the new isn't fulfilled by the old, the old is fulfilled by the new.

Slippin' an' a slidin'. . .

The stumbling block of the legalist is what it means that Christ came to fulfill the law. They don't understand this means He was sinless and kept all the requirements of the law for us, to be our propitiation for sin, by His blood, as the spotless Lamb of God. In turn, we are imputed His righteousness, by the grace of God, through faith in Him. Christ fulfilled the law, and nobody else has, ever. They don't see they only have filthy rags, in terms of holiness. Some overblown egos have never been shattered, at the foot of the cross. Jesus Christ is always the stumbling stone, to those who see it as, "about me, not Thee."

 

[Biblelogic01]

I've never seen people stating such observances are wrong, and at least I've never had issues with most Messianic Jews. You do get a few here and there that do the Gentile heathen diatribe, curse those who aren't doing Torah, but, in my experience, these are very few. Whatever you do in faith is simply exercising your faith, and at least Messianic Jews actually have that heritage, to know of what they speak. It's these Gentile, fake Jewish, Hebrew roots cults that start with Christianity, then pervert it with selective backwardation of legal bondage, sacred names hocus pocus, buy a yarmulke and yad on eBay, then play Jew, that irk me. It's a false, manufactured faith, claiming the Lord Jesus came to get people back to the Torah, at the heart of their cult claims. There is a war against the cross, and grace by faith, and this is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you here, and I'm not accusing you of this. But there are also people who are non-Torah observant that do tell Torah observant people that they are wrong. The post I was responding to, I responded that way because his post comes across as "If someone follows Torah, they are in wrong and should not do that." Which is the same as what you are talking about, but coming from the otherside (if that makes any sense).

 

[JesusIsAll]

I agree with you here, and I'm not accusing you of this. But there are also people who are non-Torah observant that do tell Torah observant people that they are wrong. The post I was responding to, I responded that way because his post comes across as "If someone follows Torah, they are in wrong and should not do that." Which is the same as what you are talking about, but coming from the otherside (if that makes any sense).

This is what the Bible teaches, the concept put forth in such as Romans 14, that whether you eat or don't eat isn't at issue, it's what you do or don't do in faith, and these are to be personal matters. It is also indicated that it's stronger faith, to not need props, as it were. It seems the chronic factor missing from most discussions is that the faith is not a checklist, in the first place, but the power of the Holy Spirit in the individual guiding sanctification. It somehow seems His presence, that gives us eyes to see and ears to hear, is seldom mentioned, this living faith, as opposed to doctrines of letters, piled upon doctrines of letters, comparing lists of dos and don'ts. One can be a Christian without the Torah, without a whole Bible, as many saved, in ages past, had to live, even being illiterate, but hearing the gospel and believing. The Holy Spirit doesn't need any new religious inventions or gadgets.

 

[Elin]

What they are trying to add Jesus to is NOT Judaism; whether or not they think it is! What they are trying to add Jesus to is their own confusion.


I am a Jew who believes that Jesus (Yeshua / Salvation) is the fulfillment of Messianic prophesy.

Every Jewish believer, I have ever met, has a conservative theology similar to my own. Most attend mainstream churches on Sunday; whether or not they observe Sabbath with a Messianic congregation.

There are two types of assemblies which call themselves Messianic:

1) Jewish believers who band together to preserve their ethnic heritage. While these tend to observe the appointed times of Leviticus 23; most attend mainstream churches; and have no interest in putting anyone under the Law.

2) Gentiles masquerading as Jews without understanding. These try to put themselves and all around them under the Law; and are fixated on mispronouncing the Father's name.

As Yahweh?
So where are they coming from?

Is there a difference between the Jewish Christian and the Messianic Jew?
(Note which is the noun in each.)

I see you as a Jewish Christian.

Those who subject the NT to the OT, or reject part of the NT, I view as Messianic Jew.

Could you give me some clarity on what I am trying to describe?

 

[Elin]

Do not - it is simple!!!! In Brief :
1. When the Apostles were teaching people there was not any new testimony written yet - they wrote the books of it to make their job easier
2. All of the words which Jesus has said are from and old testimony - example Deuteronomy 6:5 and 4 Kings 24:25 and Mat 22:37 OR Lev 19:18 and Mathew 19:19
3. The main law was and is -see Revel.12:17.

And my advise is: LET the God be your teacher - have only Him for your teacher, because " thou shalt find Him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." How to let Him be your teacher? - there is the only one way - read the Bible and think with your own head and do not hurry - read and ask Him - you will see how the words will explain the words ... and you will see also how He will teach you! It is unique

Does that include all the NT as the word of God?

 

[Elin]

I've never seen people stating such observances are wrong, and at least I've never had issues with most Messianic Jews. You do get a few here and there that do the Gentile heathen diatribe, curse those who aren't doing Torah, but, in my experience, these are very few. Whatever you do in faith is simply exercising your faith, and at least Messianic Jews actually have that heritage, to know of what they speak.
It's these Gentile, fake Jewish, Hebrew roots cults that start with Christianity, then pervert it with selective backwardation of legal bondage, sacred names hocus pocus, buy a yarmulke and yad on eBay, then play Jew, that irk me.

Is Jesus not enough for them that they need more?

It's a false, manufactured faith, claiming the Lord Jesus came to get people back to the Torah, at the heart of their cult claims. There is a war against the cross, and grace by faith, and this is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MarcR]

As Yahweh?
So where are they coming from?

Is there a difference between the Jewish Christian and the Messianic Jew?
(Note which is the noun in each.)

I see you as a Jewish Christian.

Those who subject the NT to the OT, or reject part of the NT, I view as Messianic Jew.

Could you give me some clarity on what I am trying to describe?

Elin,

What I am trying to say is that IMO the 'Jewish Roots Movement' has, for the most part , NO CONNECTION WITH JUDAISM either ethnically or doctrinally. They are Gentiles who are masquerading as Jews with no understanding; and putting themselves and all who they can seduce under Law.

I have never met a person of Jewish upbringing who, after coming to faith in Christ, puts himself/herself back under Law.

Though many, including myself, see value in continuing to observe elements of the law without being under compulsion of law.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Is Jesus not enough for them that they need more?

It wouldn't seem Jesus is not enough, as it would be plain moronic to claim God is not enough. It comes down to the need to be God, in the sense they're doing something to save themselves, that God needs their help, and, like the Pharisees, a need to feel preeminent among men, pride of life. Some haven't come to the foot of the cross, that strips away all pretense as to just how big we really are. Unregenerate man is a control freak, a vain creature, who needs to feel extra special.

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[Elin]

This is what the Bible teaches, the concept put forth in such as Romans 14, that whether you eat or don't eat isn't at issue, it's what you do or don't do in faith, and these are to be personal matters. It is also indicated that
it's stronger faith, to not need props, as it were.

Yes, we forget that Paul said it was a weak faith that did not allow certain foods, or regarded one day more sacred than another.

However, these folks view themselves as stronger in faith, not weaker as Paul says, for doing such things, and they regard the non-observers of such things as not having a full faith.

So much for man's view of faith and godliness. . .

God's truth is good at standing man's wisdom on its head. . .and some of us keep trying to return the favor.

 

[Sirk]

The stumbling block of the legalist is what it means that Christ came to fulfill the law. They don't understand this means He was sinless and kept all the requirements of the law for us, to be our propitiation for sin, by His blood, as the spotless Lamb of God. In turn, we are imputed His righteousness, by the grace of God, through faith in Him. Christ fulfilled the law, and nobody else has, ever. They don't see they only have filthy rags, in terms of holiness. Some overblown egos have never been shattered, at the foot of the cross. Jesus Christ is always the stumbling stone, to those who see it as, "about me, not Thee."

It just can't be stated any more true than this!

 

[BS]

One can be a Christian without the Torah, without a whole Bible, as many saved, in ages past, had to live, even being illiterate, but hearing the gospel and believing. The Holy Spirit doesn't need any new religious inventions or gadgets.

Mathew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

That is about learning and love between parts of the Christ or I am mistaken? Let see what is written in the Bible, ok? If the kids are playing with the knifes they may harm themselves, but sometimes we must warn each other and now I am doing it.