Who is God... Really?!

[Loloy]

Why would I define person? It's not my definition of God, it's yours.

This statement will lead into two directions:
1. Maybe your defining God. that He is not a person

or

2. You have no specific accurate exact definition of the word "person", if so, then how can you conclude then with your perfect knowledge about the personhood of God?

It's not being personal, not you being personal claiming that we're lost and damned, i'm just an ordinary man who believed in God of the bible, who wants the truth. If you claim to be a Pastor - do you have the fruit of the Spirit?

 

[Ramon]

More self-righteous rhetoric from another Trinitarian.

I didn't come to this truth by words and definitions; it was by prayer and fasting nigh unto death.

You keep calling me a trinitarian and I have no idea what that is. Anyhow, anyone who comes to the Truth does not come on his own terms. You cannot save yourself with deeds. Prayer and fasting saves no one. Anyone who wants to be saved must OBEY THE TRUTH, even till death. May Jesus bless you.

 

[Loloy]

It's the Gospel, and it sure matters to Trinitarians who have anathematized and judged the rest of the world from their indoctrinated error.

How can you believe in whom you have not heard?

Yep. You'll skate with no exegesis or apologetic, just like every other indoctrinated Trini.

Three "persons" is a false Gospel.

You say false gospel.... Do you know the meaning of the word Gospel? hmmm.... make it sure you know how to use your terms

Wait if you want some exegesis of the trinity... I will give you... Hope you will be there...

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You keep calling me a trinitarian and I have no idea what that is. Anyhow, anyone who comes to the Truth does not come on his own terms. You cannot save yourself with deeds. Prayer and fasting saves no one. Anyone who wants to be saved must OBEY THE TRUTH, even till death. May Jesus bless you.

I didn't say prayer and fasting saved me or anyone else. Nor any other works. I didn't come to anything on my own terms.

 

[Loloy]

It was for me, and others testify the same.

Seriously... do you think the UPC Oneness folks have salvation? Most Trinis call them a cult. Trinis think everything and everyone else is lost and it's a salvific issue.

I also know some Trinis that have received this truth and said it was a deeper understanding of salvation they were sure of.

I think it CAN be salvific, and is for many.

This sounds some religious thing. Then your loyal to your tag. If you wan't to understand God, it sounds like your making measures on God. You bringing God into finite understanding.

Upon looking to the Title of this thread - your making of standards upon knowing God - bringing His infinity into a common and finite understanding of God which is in great error for u cannot subtract or add infinity to infinity... It is like shrinking the whole ocean putting into the bottle. No can really fathom the mystery of God. We only know what he reveal to us. We cannot judge other that they are damned and lost because they have different view about God. Don't you know God reveal himself in different perspective - even you put it together you still your mind cannot afford to do it since your finite. Being judgmental about the belief and their view is not good for you, since it is been written (Matt. 7:1 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.).

If I ask you Pneuma - with your so called knowledge about God - can you claim now that your saved?

 

[Loloy]

Amazing that this only happens when non-Trinitarians stand against the steamroller of loveless, truthless Trinitarianism that has squashed all else in its path for 1.7 millennia., and left Christendom in powerless divisive shambles.

I'm not being hateful and rude. I'm standing against men's tradition that has choked out truth for many.

Oh man... it's getting personal... lol

This is a great deal for me too... you judged people to be loveless and truthles, then the one has brought you up since your trinitarian before - is loveless and truthless... take head of your words - your accountable for that...

Some piece of advice (even your elderly than me) - we should not be personal here, show your love to people - even to those you called trinitarians - it doesn't mean that they have not yet responded to your post it means their loveless and truthless. i do admire you for your passion for the truth - but let it be love cover you.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This statement will lead into two directions:
1. Maybe your defining God. that He is not a person

or

2. You have no specific accurate exact definition of the word "person", if so, then how can you conclude then with your perfect knowledge about the personhood of God?

It's not being personal, not you being personal claiming that we're lost and damned, i'm just an ordinary man who believed in God of the bible, who wants the truth. If you claim to be a Pastor - do you have the fruit of the Spirit?

There are only two words rendered person: prosopon, which I exegeted early in the thread (go read, please); and hupostasis, which means substance. Scripture doesn't use person to define the Father and Holy Spirit; only Jesus.

I wouldn't commend myself. Others testify I have much fruit, but I will not declare it myself.

Just because I firmly stand for truth and don't tolerate silly ignorance about such a serious matter doesn't mean I'm fruitless. The Word teaches how young men should respond to those who are their elders, and C4GW has always reduced grown men to being his peers or subordinates.

I started the thread and extensively began dealing with scripture. It's you and others who've come on-thread with no scriptural support while challenging what I've posted. I think the question might be if you have the fruit of the spirit.

In your perfect knowledge, can you support Trinity? Not conceptually, but specifically? No. It's not in scripture. It's inferred.

 

[Ramon]

I didn't say prayer and fasting saved me or anyone else. Nor any other works. I didn't come to anything on my own terms.

Then tell me my friend, how did you come to the Truth? I don't want you to think I am trying to trap you or debate you. Lets share. May Jesus bless you.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This sounds some religious thing. Then your loyal to your tag. If you wan't to understand God, it sounds like your making measures on God. You bringing God into finite understanding.

Upon looking to the Title of this thread - your making of standards upon knowing God - bringing His infinity into a common and finite understanding of God which is in great error for u cannot subtract or add infinity to infinity... It is like shrinking the whole ocean putting into the bottle. No can really fathom the mystery of God. We only know what he reveal to us. We cannot judge other that they are damned and lost because they have different view about God. Don't you know God reveal himself in different perspective - even you put it together you still your mind cannot afford to do it since your finite. Being judgmental about the belief and their view is not good for you, since it is been written (Matt. 7:1 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.).

If I ask you Pneuma - with your so called knowledge about God - can you claim now that your saved?

And yet... You insist to absolutely, finitely know that God is a Trinity of three "persons". Double standards are common for Trinis. Same for unknown mystery of God. Then why do you insist He's a knowable Trinity? And your application of Matthew 7:1 isn't correct, either.

Oh man... it's getting personal... lol

This is a great deal for me too... you judged people to be loveless and truthles, then the one has brought you up since your trinitarian before - is loveless and truthless... take head of your words - your accountable for that...

Some piece of advice (even your elderly than me) - we should not be personal here, show your love to people - even to those you called trinitarians - it doesn't mean that they have not yet responded to your post it means their loveless and truthless. i do admire you for your passion for the truth - but let it be love cover you.

It wasn't personal. I said TrinitarianISM, and it's true.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Then tell me my friend, how did you come to the Truth? I don't want you to think I am trying to trap you or debate you. Lets share. May Jesus bless you.

A precious Brother came to me and shared the true Gospel of Jesus Christ with me. I was cut to the heart as the Spirit began to reveal Himself to me. I trusted and believed, and learned to pray and be led of the Spirit and know His voice.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

i just hope people realise this has been going on for centuries and still no break thru

You have to be able to recognize the "breakthrough" by the Spirit when it's revealed from the Word.

 

[AnandaHya]

sigh ok i'll give it a shot....


Before it goes much farther can i point out something that seems to be overlooked????

PPS says

"There are only two words rendered person: prosopon, which I exegeted early in the thread (go read, please); and hupostasis, which means substance. Scripture doesn't use person to define the Father and Holy Spirit; only Jesus"


NOTE NOW two words: Prosopon and hupostasis.


basically the only difference between what you believe PPS and what the Trinitarians have said is based on those two words.

Hey guys if you didn't read between the lines "person" for PPS is defined as "prosopon" which is the fleshy embodiment of Jesus. The Holy Spirit and the Father are "hupostasis" which is substance (what substance hey go and ask God) anyway it is not of Flesh it is not "person"

thus PPS you agree that there are three distinct entities since the beginning of time: God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which are joined and act as ONE.

(Kind of like how husband and wife are supposed to be joined and acting as ONE? hmmm maybe?)

YOUR main contention and difference then is that they are not PERSONS or "prosopon" but instead "hupostasis" or substances and that everything proceeds out of the hupostasis of the Father (hey doesn't that explain why that part of God is called the FATHER for it BEGETS the other)

The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct and only have the power and knowledge given to them from the Father. However they are joined in heart, mind and soul and agree and act as ONE.

We worship the ONE, which we call God which is the unity of all three "hupostasis" of the Father, the Word, and the Spirit.

does that make anymore sense are is it just more words added to the tangle mess?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have to be able to recognize the "breakthrough" by the Spirit when it's revealed from the Word.

Yet every church organization will say if we do not believe as they do, we are not allowing the Spirit to reveal truth to us.

 

[AnandaHya]

Yet every church organization will say if we do not believe as they do, we are not allowing the Spirit to reveal truth to us.

AHHH NOW ask how do we test this? if their teachings are GOD"S truth there will be spiritual fruit in their lives and healing and the casting out of demons. the church will be acting as a united mind and whole for a testimony to the world of God's light.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

AHHH NOW ask how do we test this? if their teachings are GOD"S truth there will be spiritual fruit in their lives and healing and the casting out of demons. the church will be acting as a united mind and whole for a testimony to the world of God's light.

A better way to test would be to use the word itself.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, (truth) for reproof (rebuke, or censor), for correction , for instruction in righteousness (knowing how one is to act),

Again, It is true not everyone interprets Gods word correctly. The thing to remember, God will hold us accountable to what we believe, not what others teach us, We should never blindly follow anyone.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Yet every church organization will say if we do not believe as they do, we are not allowing the Spirit to reveal truth to us.

Like all the Trinitarian churches who declare a creedal faith without usually even reading a creed. Then not one of them, including Pastors, can really support their doctrine from scripture.

Your statement actually makes my whole point. That's how the orthodox Trinity churches have done business for 1.7 millennia.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like all the Trinitarian churches who declare a creedal faith without usually even reading a creed. Then not one of them, including Pastors, can really support their doctrine from scripture.

Your statement actually makes my whole point. That's how the orthodox Trinity churches have done business for 1.7 millennia.

Well I do not belong to an orthodox trinity church.

And I have already showed you I do not follow their teachings in all aspects.


so, since I disagree with them, and disagree with you (as does everyone I know) we have a problem.

They say they performed exegesis right, and are given their words from the spirit. as do I , as do you. who is right?

It is up for everyone to study and decide for themselves. We will all find out one day.

I was pointing out that the logic you gave for your belief (spirit illuminated you) is practiced by all people no matter what they belief, so is a futile argument. Which I am amazed people still use, for it proves nothing. They can't all be right. so why use the argument.

 

[resurrection33]

God is the fellow who created us and looks out after us.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

A better way to test would be to use the word itself.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, (truth) for reproof (rebuke, or censor), for correction , for instruction in righteousness (knowing how one is to act),

Again, It is true not everyone interprets Gods word correctly. The thing to remember, God will hold us accountable to what we believe, not what others teach us, We should never blindly follow anyone.

Okay... Then why have Trinitarians blindly followed such teaching? Persons isn't in scripture to define the Father and Holy Spirit. Prosopon and hupostasis are both singular, and aren't used in the sense of Trinity at all.

How did you learn Trinity? Nobody ever sat down with scripture and said, "Hey, look! Three hupostases of one ousua as a trinitas! God is three different persons! I will call Him... Holy Trinity." Good grief... It took 300+ Bishops and other fathers a looooooong time to formulate Trinity, and many left Nicea uncomfortable with the content and motive of the Council.

I've studied every writing and every early father. I don't just toss out random unfounded opinions. I know what the landscape of history looked like during the Ante-Nicene period.

The Word says God's Soul was well pleased in the Son. Peter confirmed the Father is well pleased in the Son. The Holy Spirit is referred to as God's Spirit or the Spirit of God. The Word was made flesh.

Understanding timelessness of eternity versus time-space-matter would help. In eternity, God has always been Incarnate by His Word. God is every-when. Think about it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay... Then why have Trinitarians blindly followed such teaching? Persons isn't in scripture to define the Father and Holy Spirit. Prosopon and hupostasis are both singular, and aren't used in the sense of Trinity at all.

How did you learn Trinity? Nobody ever sat down with scripture and said, "Hey, look! Three hupostases of one ousua as a trinitas! God is three different persons! I will call Him... Holy Trinity." Good grief... It took 300+ Bishops and other fathers a looooooong time to formulate Trinity, and many left Nicea uncomfortable with the content and motive of the Council.

I've studied every writing and every early father. I don't just toss out random unfounded opinions. I know what the landscape of history looked like during the Ante-Nicene period.

The Word says God's Soul was well pleased in the Son. Peter confirmed the Father is well pleased in the Son. The Holy Spirit is referred to as God's Spirit or the Spirit of God. The Word was made flesh.

Understanding timelessness of eternity versus time-space-matter would help. In eternity, God has always been Incarnate by His Word. God is every-when. Think about it.

I have already told you that people use the word "people" because they do not have a better word to explain in human terms who and what God is.

The fact the word "person" is not found in scripture does not mean anything. God are three distinct (insert whatever word you wish to use) which are God.

The father is not the spirit (nor is the spirit a part of the father) The father is not the son (nor is the son a part of the father) so on and so forth. This is what scripture teaches. The whole of the truth which scripture teaches is what I believe. Not a doctrine which some church came up with.

Scripture states God "repented" that he made man. To repent is to say God made a mistake. Can God make a mistake? No. But he used a human term to describe something he did in which we can't understand.

This is what I do when I say person. Like I said before, If you can come up with a better word. feel free, I am all ears. and willing to change the word I use if it better fits.