Who is God... Really?!

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Well I do not belong to an orthodox trinity church.

And I have already showed you I do not follow their teachings in all aspects.


so, since I disagree with them, and disagree with you (as does everyone I know) we have a problem.

They say they performed exegesis right, and are given their words from the spirit. as do I , as do you. who is right?

It is up for everyone to study and decide for themselves. We will all find out one day.

I was pointing out that the logic you gave for your belief (spirit illuminated you) is practiced by all people no matter what they belief, so is a futile argument. Which I am amazed people still use, for it proves nothing. They can't all be right. so why use the argument.

This would include you and your church.

I simply meant Trinity and "o"rthodox, which it is, no matter what; while "O"rthodox is what you're thinking I mean. Trinity of any form is orthodox, even if not in an Orthodox liturgical fellowship.

Even wrong or incomplete exegesis is better than none + opinion.

I'm content to leave you alone. I need to post more Word on the actual topic. At least you'll have some valuable info for the Deity of Christ. Trinis can't ever support that, either. I'm glad to help.
 

I have already told you that people use the word "people" because they do not have a better word to explain in human terms who and what God is.

The fact the word "person" is not found in scripture does not mean anything. God are three distinct (insert whatever word you wish to use) which are God.

The father is not the spirit (nor is the spirit a part of the father) The father is not the son (nor is the son a part of the father) so on and so forth. This is what scripture teaches. The whole of the truth which scripture teaches is what I believe. Not a doctrine which some church came up with.


Scripture states God "repented" that he made man. To repent is to say God made a mistake. Can God make a mistake? No. But he used a human term to describe something he did in which we can't understand.

This is what I do when I say person. Like I said before, If you can come up with a better word. feel free, I am all ears. and willing to change the word I use if it better fits.

I don't have to come up with a term. The Word says God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son. The Spirit and Body are there, too. God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.

I'll show how that embodiment was substantial enough account for Jesus at the baptism and praying. His Word became flesh.
 
1 Corinthians 13

The Greatest Gift

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

YouTube - Here With Me - MercyMe

ok PPS are you gonna teach us some more Hebrew and Greek?
 
sigh ok i'll give it a shot....

Before it goes much farther can i point out something that seems to be overlooked????

PPS says
"There are only two words rendered person: prosopon, which I exegeted early in the thread (go read, please); and hupostasis, which means substance. Scripture doesn't use person to define the Father and Holy Spirit; only Jesus"

NOTE NOW two words: Prosopon and hupostasis.

basically the only difference between what you believe PPS and what the Trinitarians have said is based on those two words.

Hey guys if you didn't read between the lines "person" for PPS is defined as "prosopon" which is the fleshy embodiment of Jesus. The Holy Spirit and the Father are "hupostasis" which is substance (what substance hey go and ask God) anyway it is not of Flesh it is not "person"

thus PPS you agree that there are three distinct entities since the beginning of time: God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which are joined and act as ONE.

No. Entities is as discrete as persons. That's tritheism of plural gods.

(Kind of like how husband and wife are supposed to be joined and acting as ONE? hmmm maybe?)

No. That's two discrete people.

YOUR main contention and difference then is that they are not PERSONS or "prosopon" but instead "hupostasis" or substances and that everything proceeds out of the hupostasis of the Father (hey doesn't that explain why that part of God is called the FATHER for it BEGETS the other)

Sorta. The mind and will are the center of sentience and conscious volition. The mind and will are soul faculties. The bottom line is God only has one mind-will, not three; even if they're depicted as in unity of agreement. God is not three centers of consciousness. During the Incarnation, Jesus had a distinct complete human constitution with a mind-will of His soul. That spirit-soul of His humanity was obedient unto death. It was that human will that prayed and surrendered. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and doesn't have or need a separate mind, being conjoined to God's Soul, the Father.

If anybody had any understanding of man's spirit-soul-body, they might have a clue what all this means.

The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct and only have the power and knowledge given to them from the Father. However they are joined in heart, mind and soul and agree and act as ONE.

They ARE one. Three parts of One, not three joined as one. A tripartite person compared to conjoined triplets. That's a huge difference.

We worship the ONE, which we call God which is the unity of all three "hupostasis" of the Father, the Word, and the Spirit.

No. God only has one hupostasis. Jesus is the singular Incarnate image OF that singular substance. This is the error of Trinity formulation.

does that make anymore sense are is it just more words added to the tangle mess?

See above. :-)

AHHH NOW ask how do we test this? if their teachings are GOD"S truth there will be spiritual fruit in their lives and healing and the casting out of demons. the church will be acting as a united mind and whole for a testimony to the world of God's light.

Odd you should mention this. In our ministry we've seen miraculous healings and other works of God. AIDS, cancer, blind eyes, deaf ears, withered limbs. I've never experienced or observed any such power in Trinity churches. Well... unless we count the power of gossip and social cliques, etc.

Souls being won and established in a spiritual walk, too. We see several baptized each week, with a vibrant loving ministry that reaches hurting people in the community.

It certainly testified to me of truth 13 years ago.
 
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I don't have to come up with a term. The Word says God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son. The Spirit and Body are there, too. God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.

I'll show how that embodiment was substantial enough account for Jesus at the baptism and praying. His Word became flesh.


No the word does not say that. That is your interpretation. Which I have not seen enough evidence yet to prove to myself is true. In fact, all you have is more questions than answers.

Again, I would not tell my soul to protect those my soul has promised to me. It makes no sense. This is just one example of many things which can not allow me to see it your way.

But as I have said before. This is not worth arguing over.We are not going to change each others minds.
 
This would include you and your church.

I simply meant Trinity and "o"rthodox, which it is, no matter what; while "O"rthodox is what you're thinking I mean. Trinity of any form is orthodox, even if not in an Orthodox liturgical fellowship.

Even wrong or incomplete exegesis is better than none + opinion.

I'm content to leave you alone. I need to post more Word on the actual topic. At least you'll have some valuable info for the Deity of Christ. Trinis can't ever support that, either. I'm glad to help.

You have not helped with anything but to show me that my belief is not in error.

But if you wish to continue to validate my belief, feel free
 
OK PPS before we can deconstruct the concept of the Godhead perhaps you should explain in more detail your understanding of HUMAN make up. Explain the "tripartite person". Tell us more about the unity of the spirit-soul-body found inside humanity and how it relates.

so you say the mind and the will is aspects of the soul how does that connect with the human brain and neurological functions for example?

how do the interconnections between the three aspects of a person work and coordinate with one another?

Do we have a spirit independent of God's spirit or do we receive the HOLY Spirit and were we spiritless before then?

How does Spirit link with breath? Have you heard of the concept of "atman" it is the sanskrit word for "spirit" or "breath"? Is there any similarities to your biblical reference?

Logos is Greek for WORD and Jesus is Logos or the WORD of God.

I don't think God has separate Souls or will's or whatever. everything should be done in unity of Mind(soul, will whatever you want to call it) and Spirit.

i think i understand some of the Body of God that is the material world and Earthly manifestations. science covers that one extensively. but the other two are harder to understand.

so meaning of human "soul" and "spirit" is?
 
You have not helped with anything but to show me that my belief is not in error.

But if you wish to continue to validate my belief, feel free

What belief? You've provided opinion with no substantial scripture that shows the F-S-HS as persons. There isn't another substitute term, since scripture tells us.

The Father and Spirit are inseparable except by the Word. God as Soul-Spirit does everything. The Word came to divide*asunder for giving (Him) and receiving (us).

Trinity has made the understanding too discrete. It's God, His OWN Spirit, and His OWN Word made flesh. You don't know what fullness (pleroma) of the Godhead bodily is.

You don't understand because you caricature it to Trinity pre-conception. You likely don't have any understanding of man as spirit-soul-body, either.

I don't care what you or others believe. I stand on the Word, and against the tyrannous reign of erroneous Trinity indoctrination. Trinitarianism has the blood of countless lost souls on its hands, just like other religions.
 
No the word does not say that. That is your interpretation. Which I have not seen enough evidence yet to prove to myself is true. In fact, all you have is more questions than answers.

Again, I would not tell my soul to protect those my soul has promised to me. It makes no sense. This is just one example of many things which can not allow me to see it your way.

But as I have said before. This is not worth arguing over.We are not going to change each others minds. [/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

So... You choose a conjoined-triplet Divinity rather than a tripartite Divinity.

That's what it comes down to.
 
So... You choose a conjoined-triplet Divinity rather than a tripartite Divinity.

That's what it comes down to.

I choose a Father, who is in supreme control, who made a plan to save mankind.

I choose a son, who has his own mind and soul, Who chose to show his love by following the plan of the father, and set aside his diety to become man, live a life free of sin, and sacrifice himself in my place.

I choose a Spirit, who is the teacher of the plan, and empowered mankind to do the things of God.

So, Yeah I choose a 3 diety God who is unified in purpose and plan, an author, a doer, and a teacher.

And I am happy with this :) And grateful to Christ for what he did (thus my nic)
 
I choose a Father, who is in supreme control, who made a plan to save mankind.

I choose a son, who has his own mind and soul, Who chose to show his love by following the plan of the father, and set aside his diety to become man, live a life free of sin, and sacrifice himself in my place.

I choose a Spirit, who is the teacher of the plan, and empowered mankind to do the things of God.

So, Yeah I choose a 3 diety God who is unified in purpose and plan, an author, a doer, and a teacher.

And I am happy with this :) And grateful to Christ for what he did (thus my nic)

A 3 Deity God is tritheism. It's idolatry.
 
lol hey PPS just think of it this way if it helps you deal with Trinitarians: GOD IS ONE but sometimes He likes to dress up as three different people/aspects/manifestations. they just haven't seen beyond the disguises.

Does that help? Let them play pretend, Our Heavenly Father doesn't mind so why do you take offense?
 
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As background, I was raised as a Trinitarian by loving godly parents and went on to get a Trinitarian college education and then into Trinitarian Pastoral ministry. I believed Trinity, taught Trinity, and declared anything non-Trinity as anathema just like the majority of Trinitarians do. Then I heard the basics of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and received salvation and was scripturally baptized.

After being grounded in the truth of the Word, I've spent the intervening 13 years in deep prayer and study of the Word while fasting many months at a time. My one prevailing prayer has been for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him (Ephesians 1:17). I've exhaustively studied Church history, and have read every Ante-Nicene writing extant. I've researched the lives and beliefs of every early church father and every permutation of Christian doctrine, as well as the philosophical and gnostic beliefs of all the influential men of renown.

I say all this simply as an introduction and an overview of the means of my leading of the Spirit. This is not eisegesis of my own view or a personal opinion; it is a thorough and prayerful long-term exegesis that I have very nearly given my physical life for in fasting nigh unto death. That process may or may not mean anything to readers, but I want to clarify that this isn't just some academic intellectual opinion from my own mind.

I affirm the following:
There is One Deity.
The Father is Deity.
The Holy Spirit is Deity.
The Word (Son) is Deity.
These Three are One Deity.
The Father is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Holy Spirit is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Word is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Father is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Holy Spirit is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Son is Uncreated and the Only Begotten.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit nor the Son (Word).
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son (Word).
The Word (Son) is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
The Son proceeded forth and came from God, Sent by the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father, Sent by the Father and the Son.
(The Holy Spirit proceedeth NOT from both the Father and Son, though Sent by Both.)
Jesus is the Son of God and is Fully Divine, Begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the son of man and is fully human with a rational soul, born of the Virgin by the Holy Spirit.
The Virgin Birth of Jesus was a Supernatural Procreative Act of God, not a Creative Act.
God hath made Jesus both Lord and Christ. He is the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm not any forumulation of Trinitarian, Binitarian, Unitarian, Arian, Sabellian, Tritheist, or Ditheist. I'm not Gnostic, JW, SDA, LDS, or any World Religion of any kind. If I had to describe the truth in theoligcal terms, I'd refer to it as Merismos Monotheism. It is the pure understanding of God as One Divinity, untainted by the doctrines and traditions of men.

There are many understandings involved in knowing the whole truth:
The Rhema-Logos Word
The rhema-logos word
The Constitution of God
The Constitution of Man
The Creation of Adam
The Creation of Eve
The Life in the Blood
The Inward Progression of Sin
The Outward Progression of Sanctification
The Composition of the Tabernacle
The Composition of the Temple
The Temple Not Made with Hands
The Propagation of Human Souls-Spirits
The Virgin Birth
The Transcendence of Jesus
The Transcendence of Man
Uncreated Life vs. Created Life
The Earnest of Our Inheritance
The Redemption of the Purchased Possession
In My Father's House Are Many Mansions
...ad infinitum...

I'll begin with the basics and build a framework for understanding the truth. There is substantial exegesis of Scripture beyond what I initially present, but I'm trying to keep it scaled down for simplicity and general understanding.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14

Logos and Rhema are inseparable, though distinct. They both comprise the spoken word, but are two parts of that spoken word. There can be no Logos without Rhema.

Rhema is the substance content that is the subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that subject matter. Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. Both the Rhema and Logos precede the utterance. To be spoken, the Rhema-Logos is borne forth from the internal depths of one's essence, containing the very substance of that essence in the external speaking forth from the internal. It is borne by the breath (pneuma: spirit).

Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed*forth and come from God.

Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself in and to His creation. It is his thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.

That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter of Divine Content. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self.

The Rhema-Logos precedes the act of the utterance. God silently planned and arranged within Himself everything that He was afterwards about to utter through His Word; while He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His own essence to become Word, borne forth by His breath after it was initiated by His will (thelema).

He thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Hismelf upon His breath, which was the Word. His mind and will and emotion thought and chose and felt to utter the Word, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.

God's OWN Rhema-Logos spoke forth Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately become the person (prosopon) of Jesus Christ.

The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible intangible Self to mankind who were made in His image and likeness.

Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but the person (prosopon) of God.

(More coming. Next post imminent.)
You say Jesus is "NOT another "person", but the person (prospon) of God." Then it is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and they are all fused together and they all are each other. Thus is it is difficult to avoid the inescapable conclusion that there are three bodies in God: the body of the Father, the body of the Son, and the body of the Holy Spirit. This is all a mess. Something the Trinity doctrine knows nothing of. Only God the Son has a human body. The Father is a Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit. The Son is an incarnate Spirit. God manifest in the Flesh. In Erie PA PS Your teaching fuses and merges the persons of the Trinity so that they must be each other, if Jesus is not "another person", they are all one person: Father, Son, and Spirit together one person. But then this person must have three bodies, because they are all fused together. You can't see the logical implications (tri-soma) of your no Trinity doctrine.

 
No. Entities is as discrete as persons. That's tritheism of plural gods.



No. That's two discrete people.



Sorta. The mind and will are the center of sentience and conscious volition. The mind and will are soul faculties. The bottom line is God only has one mind-will, not three; even if they're depicted as in unity of agreement. God is not three centers of consciousness. During the Incarnation, Jesus had a distinct complete human constitution with a mind-will of His soul. That spirit-soul of His humanity was obedient unto death. It was that human will that prayed and surrendered. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and doesn't have or need a separate mind, being conjoined to God's Soul, the Father.

If anybody had any understanding of man's spirit-soul-body, they might have a clue what all this means.



They ARE one. Three parts of One, not three joined as one. A tripartite person compared to conjoined triplets. That's a huge difference.



No. God only has one hupostasis. Jesus is the singular Incarnate image OF that singular substance. This is the error of Trinity formulation.



See above. :-)



Odd you should mention this. In our ministry we've seen miraculous healings and other works of God. AIDS, cancer, blind eyes, deaf ears, withered limbs. I've never experienced or observed any such power in Trinity churches. Well... unless we count the power of gossip and social cliques, etc.

Souls being won and established in a spiritual walk, too. We see several baptized each week, with a vibrant loving ministry that reaches hurting people in the community.

It certainly testified to me of truth 13 years ago.
If God is only one person, is the body of Christ the Father, and is the body of Christ the Holy Spirit? In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
OK PPS before we can deconstruct the concept of the Godhead perhaps you should explain in more detail your understanding of HUMAN make up. Explain the "tripartite person". Tell us more about the unity of the spirit-soul-body found inside humanity and how it relates.

so you say the mind and the will is aspects of the soul how does that connect with the human brain and neurological functions for example?

how do the interconnections between the three aspects of a person work and coordinate with one another?

Do we have a spirit independent of God's spirit or do we receive the HOLY Spirit and were we spiritless before then?

How does Spirit link with breath? Have you heard of the concept of "atman" it is the sanskrit word for "spirit" or "breath"? Is there any similarities to your biblical reference?

Logos is Greek for WORD and Jesus is Logos or the WORD of God.

I don't think God has separate Souls or will's or whatever. everything should be done in unity of Mind(soul, will whatever you want to call it) and Spirit.

i think i understand some of the Body of God that is the material world and Earthly manifestations. science covers that one extensively. but the other two are harder to understand.

so meaning of human "soul" and "spirit" is?

hey PPS what about my questions?

lol hey PPS just think of it this way if it helps you deal with Trinitarians: GOD IS ONE but sometimes He likes to dress up as three different people/aspects/manifestations. they just haven't seen beyond the disguises.

Does that help? Let them play pretend, Our Heavenly Father doesn't mind so why do you take offense?


Hi, Ananda-

I'll get to these this evening. I've been mobile and trying to stay caught up. Even being brief will take some time and effort.
 
You say Jesus is "NOT another "person", but the person (prospon) of God." Then it is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and they are all fused together and they all are each other. Thus is it is difficult to avoid the inescapable conclusion that there are three bodies in God: the body of the Father, the body of the Son, and the body of the Holy Spirit. This is all a mess. Something the Trinity doctrine knows nothing of. Only God the Son has a human body. The Father is a Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit. The Son is an incarnate Spirit. God manifest in the Flesh. In Erie PA PS Your teaching fuses and merges the persons of the Trinity so that they must be each other, if Jesus is not "another person", they are all one person: Father, Son, and Spirit together one person. But then this person must have three bodies, because they are all fused together. You can't see the logical implications (tri-soma) of your no Trinity doctrine.


Scott, this is the most absurd misunderstandings and inane arguments I've ever encountered. You have a spirit and soul. Does that require you to have a body for each of them? No.

You're so indoctrinated, you can't even realistically see anything beyond a caricature of Trinity. A soul and spirit are not persons. A spirit is not a soul is not a body. The HS is not the Father is not the Son.

And I told you I wouldn't converse with you unless you deal with the scripture and exegesis of the actual Greek words. I can't help that you can't comprehend beyond an erroneous creedal statement of faith.

Trinity persons has made this mess, not me; and not the truth. God's Soul-Spirit isn't discrete like Trinity persons. That's what you're looking for... three separate centers of sentient consciousness.

Now... get to scripture and exegesis.
 
[quote=PneumaPsucheSoma;411989]So... You choose a conjoined-triplet Divinity rather than a tripartite Divinity.

That's what it comes down to.[/quote]

You're trying to understand God in human terms using human analogies. That is where your perception of the goodness of the Trinity falters. In Erie PA Scott H.
PS Your argument is emotion-laden and sarcastic, not Scriptural.