Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

hahahahahaha!!! you so funny!!!

When I pointed out to you that the sealing of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Eph 1:13 occurs at regeneration, you replied "thats your statement not scripture".

When I point out to you that you have added the words " [by regeneration] " to Acts 15:7 and Ephesians 1:13, your reply is " Doesnt have to appear in the text "


View attachment 245794
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A scripture truth isnt invalid simply because certain words you demand or expect to be in a verse arent there, Scripture is mostly understood by comparing scripture with scripture. Now its plainly taught that one needs to be born of God to heard Gods words, Jesus set the precedence with His Words on who it is that specifically hears the words of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Thats a person born of God, regenerated, thats who spiritually hears the Gospel Eph 1:13

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The world spoken of in 2 Cor 5:19 is a world without sin/trespasses charged to it, making it a Justified world.

intentionally obtuse.

Thayer's includes 2 Corinthians 5:19 under definition #5:

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... 2 Corinthians 5:19​

​

So you deny that the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have sin imputed to it ?

The world of 2 Corinthians 5:19 is the world we currently live in.

We have a promise from God that He will create a new heavens and a new earth:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

That is the world which "doesn't have sin imputed to it".
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[reneweddaybyday]

Christ gives Israel Repentance and forgiveness of sins Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here isnt a ethnic jewish people, its Gods elect from all nations

nope ... Israel in Acts 5:31 is the nation of Israel. The nation God promised to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob. Here is the Word which God spoke to Jacob:

Genesis 35:

10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins


In John 11, we read about the high priest prophesying concerning the Lord Jesus Christ:

John 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation


Again, when you read Acts 5:31, instead of ripping the verse out of the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it, you need to include (at the very least) the next verse:

Acts 5:

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The those that do not obey Him" of Acts 5:32 are the same as those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness of Romans 1:18.


Your replacement theology bunk is unScriptural.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

World here in these verses are the saved from the nations

nope ... quit reading your erroneous dogma into Scripture. Just read Scripture as God wrote it and believe what He wrote without manipulating His Word to fit your preconceived notion.

"world" in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 2 Corinthians 5:19, 1 John 2:2 is clearly defined in Thayer's:

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2​

Everyone Christ died for is Justified by His blood Rom 5:9 and so they will be given Faith to believe it.

more manipulation of Scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world ... and whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.

Some folks believe the lie of the adversary and end up being cast into the lake of fire due to their own decision to reject that which God has so freely provided for them to be saved.

God's stated desire:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

They have been eternally delivered from the penalty of sin which is death. Now you deny this !

Quit ignoring the point, brightfame52.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

I do not deny that verse. The Lord Jesus Christ obtained eternal redemption. Period.

The words "for us" were added to the text. The verse reads as follows:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.

Now, you want to include the words "for us" in order to manipulate the text to mean something never intended by the Author of Scripture? That is on you and I do not have to go there with you.

I will read the verse as intended by the Author and I absolutely believe the Lord Jesus Christ entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. Period.


Here is the verse as it appears in various versions ...


New International Version:

Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.


English Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us] the words appear in italics in the KJV to alert the reader that the words were added by the translators.


New King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


New American Standard Bible:

Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.


American Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


English Revised Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


International Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Again the natural man, which is the unregenerate man, doesnt and cant spiritually understand the things of God, like the Gospel of God, its foolishness to him because these things must be spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14

1 Corinthians 2:14 relates to the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:6-7 ... Paul taught this wisdom to those who were perfect:

1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory

The word "perfect" is translated from the Greek word teleios which means mature, full grown.


Then we read in vs 9:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:14 relates to the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory ... things which God hath prepared for them that love Him ...

These things are yet future. We have not yet entered into our glory. We will be glorified when we stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and see Him face to face ... at that time we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Because some of the believers in the church at Corinth were carnal (1 Cor 3:1), the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom was not taught to them. Paul met separately with those who were more mature and taught them the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom. To include the gospel (which could be and was taught to the full congregation at Corinth) is your error. However, I have shared this fact with you in the past and you have rejected this truth ... to your own detriment.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Yes a person is a son of God before they are born again.

nope ... before a person is born again, he/she is not a child of God.

It was because they were already sons, that God sent the Spirit into their hearts to renew them, and give them spiritual life.

Read the verse again, brightfame52:

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Because ye are sons – already born again.

God sent forth the Spirit of His Son – this is in addition to Holy Spirit born within at the time a person is born again (regenerated).

And it conforms to what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


First, born again of Holy Spirit ... then keep My Words and My Father will love him and we [Father and Son] will come unto him and make Our abode with him.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit dwell within the born again one ... magnificent truth to those who are born again.

It was because they were already sons, that God sent the Spirit into their hearts to renew them, and give them spiritual life. Its then they can call upon the name of Christ and believe in Him.

another statement of your erroneous dogma which conflicts with what is written in Scripture:

Romans 10:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


See that? Romans 10:13-15 tells us they cannot call upon the name of the Lord until they have heard and they cannot hear without a preacher speaking the truth of God's Word to them.

You have to manipulate what is written in Romans 10:13 to read "those who are saved shall call upon the name of the Lord" for your erroneous rendering to be true. But that is not how the Author of Scripture wrote the verse.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52, you have again botched your Post 2818:

brightfame52 said:

you criticize and judge
nope ... I address the point of your claim and submit a rebuttal to your claim.

I have never stated that you are not a believer as you did when you claimed in your Post 2329 that it was your "privilege to tell ya that they really don’t believe it at all !".

That you do not understand the difference between examination/scrutinization of your dogma and a personal attack does equal me personally "criticiz[ing] and judg[ing]" you. It means you do not comprehend that rebuttal to your claim ≠ personal attack.

you submitted the first sentence. The rest of what you submitted is my reply to your statement.

You really need to learn to submit your posts properly so that you do not include statements made by others as if you had made the statement.
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[reneweddaybyday]

hahahahahahahaha your inability to address the issue does not equal me denying my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You so silly!!!!!

you deny the testimony of Christs resurrection

another lie from the keyboard of brightfame52.

I would ask you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I "deny the testimony of Christs resurrection" but I know it would be useless. You would again deflect, finagle, and cast more aspersions on me.

btw ... it has not escaped the notice of all who read this thread that you have still not addressed the issue concerning the verb tense in Romans 4:5.

And you will not address it until you examine the veracity of your erroneous dogma ... which is something you are unwilling to do because it is the foundation upon which you stand at this point in your life. When you are ready to stand upon the firm foundation of the truth of God's Word, you will find it so much more stable than the shifting sands of TULIP.
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[reneweddaybyday]

whoever Christ died for, that Death for them Justified them

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Thayer's clearly states that the word kosmos as used in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 2 Cor 5:19, 1 John 2:2 refers to definition #5.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2​

Again, brightfame52, answer the question:

Do you really believe if not for mankind believing, the Lord Jesus Christ would have remained in the grave ... that the grave could hold Him???

I dont know what you talking about.

deliberately obtuse.

I will answer the question for you, brightfame52:

Even if no one believed, the Lord Jesus Christ would not have remained in the grave because, according to Acts 2:24, it was not possible that He should be holden of it.

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


If you disagree, please provide Scripture (chapter and verse) which indicates the Lord Jesus Christ would have remained in the grave.

Now you trying to agree with me and him

nope ... I merely pointed out that Gill stated "now to him that worketh not ... he does not do, that he might be justified by it; but exercises faith on God as justifying persons".

Gill states:

1) the one who believes "worketh not" (appears that Gill agrees faith ≠ works as stated in Rom 4:5)

2) the one who believes "exercises faith on God"

As I stated in Post 2802, you completely "ignored what Gill had to say about the one who "exercises faith on God" when you quoted from his commentary".

you flat out reject the testimony of Christs resurrection

another lie from the keyboard of brightfame52.

I would ask you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I "deny the testimony of Christs resurrection" but I know it would be useless. You would again deflect, finagle, and cast more aspersions on me.

human faith

In this thread, you first introduced your concept of "human faith" in Post 1715. And ever since then, you will not let go of your error. You cling to your error to the point where you claimed in Post 2618 that I am the one who "bring up human faith, the bible never does", even though I have been telling you that you are in error since you first introduced your "human faith" fallacy.

I have maintained throughout the pages of this thread that there is only one faith (Eph 4:5) and that unbelievers believe error with the same "faith" the believer believes truth.

Ephesians 4:6 states that there is one God yet atheists believe there is no God ... and pagans believe there are many gods ...

does that change the fact that there is onlyone God? ... or does that change God into some sort of "human God"? No! of course not. But you change one faith into something never intended by the Author of Scripture in order to support your erroneous dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, get rid of the error.

You, on the other hand, manipulate Scripture to fit your dogma, you end up making stuff up, and then have the audacity to claim I am the one who has done what you first did and continue to do even though I have consistently maintained there is only one faith.

You actually deny Justification by Faith

more lies from the keyboard of brightfame52. You feel better now?
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[reneweddaybyday]

Scripture is mostly understood by comparing scripture with scripture.

You don't compare scripture with scripture. You compare Scripture with your dogma and where Scripture does not align with your dogma, you toss Scripture out the window.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, you are to let go of the error and believe Scripture.

Jesus set the precedence with His Words on who it is that specifically hears the words of God Jn 8:47

Read a couple of verses before John 8:47, brightfame52:

John 8:

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


vs 45-46 – Jesus spoke truth to them and they did not believe Him. In other words, they rejected the truth ... not because they could not hear but they heard and suppressed the truth in unrighteousness just like we read in Rom 1:18-32.

From Pulpit Commentary:

He is here contemplating this wide class, who are scattered through all time and places, with susceptible minds capable of hearing freely, and believing when they hear, the words of God. For this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God; i.e. seeing that ye do not hear the words of God, it is evident that ye are not of God. They are not excluded from becoming so by any irreversible fate, but their present obtuseness of spiritual perception, their refusal to accept truth on its clearest exposition, shows that they are not born of God​

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[brightfame52]

You have again botched your reply in Post 2783:





The first sentence is what you submitted. The rebuttal to your claim was submitted by me ... and there are additional botches in your post as well.

You really need to learn to submit your posts properly so that you do not include statements made by others.
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You need to be regenerated to hear and believe. Whenever scripture says anything about a person believing in the context of salvation, the one believing was regenerated, a new creature, else they cant hear nor believe spiritually unto a spiritual conversion.

 

[VARob]

You need to be regenerated to hear and believe. Whenever scripture says anything about a person believing in the context of salvation, the one believing was regenerated, a new creature, else they cant hear nor believe spiritually unto a spiritual conversion.

I know this will not get through to you, but the Bible says the opposite of what you believe. People do not become regenerated until they hear and decide to believe the Gospel (Eph 1:13).

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

According to Rom 5:1 we have been justified by faith and Rom 5:9 being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath.

Then continuing to read Romans 5:10, reconciliation from God toward mankind having been effected by the death of His son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I have already pointed out to you in the past, the word reconciled in Rom 5:10 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

Reconciliation on the part of God to mankind took place before the foundation of the world.

Reconciliation on the part of man to God takes place at the time a person turns to God in faith ... at that point we are no longer enemies.

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them remain enemies and are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.

A person who Christ died for, are by His death alone, reconciled to God, or Justified before God before they believe and while they are enemies and ungodly. Rom 5:8-10

God does not need you to explain what He wrote in Scripture. God needs you to believe what He wrote without turning to your erroneous dogma to understand what He wrote.

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

In order for your understanding to be correct, you have to rearrange the words to fit your stated belief. Just read Scripture as written by the Author of Scripture. If God had wanted the verse to read "And God counted Abraham righteous and Abraham believed", God would have written the verse in that order.

Abraham was righteous based upon Christ dying for His sins. He believed in the Lord Jesus Christ his righteousness. Abraham had heard the Gospel back in Gen 12 when God preached Christ to him Gen 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Thats when he heard spiritually the Gospel according to Paul in Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Abraham learned about his Justification in Christ, thats what was imputed to him as righteousness, Christ ! Abraham believed in the Lord, thats what was imputed.

I know you still dont understand these things because unfortunaetly you are blind, may God be pleased to give you spiritual eyes and ears.

 

[brightfame52]

More vitriol from the mind/keyboard of brightfame52.

That I do not agree with your erroneous dogma does not mean that I "don’t believe" God is the One Who justifies. Your accusation is just deflection on your part and an avoidance tactic because you are unable to refute the central point.

You really need to stop with the personal attacks, brightfame52.

Address the issues raised and stop your ad hominem fallacious attacks ... they do nothing to add to the discussion.
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You say you believe it, but you really dont, how could you when you believe sinners Christ died for and put away their sins, still die in their sins including unbelief? If Christs death didn't justify them, what does? If you say faith, then that's what you believe, faith justifies and not God, your faith and God are not one and the same. Now you can call it an attack if you want, but im playing the hand you showing me.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

nope ... you have provided no Scriptural support for your erroneous statement. All you have provided is your rearrangement/manipulation of the text of Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous dogma.

Yes a person Christ died for is born into the world justified before God. Scripture is Rom 5:9 they were Justified by His Blood. What you think that Christ didnt shed His Blood for an individual and their sins until they were born ? Thats dumb

 

[brightfame52]

I know this will not get through to you, but the Bible says the opposite of what you believe. People do not become regenerated until they hear and decide to believe the Gospel (Eph 1:13).

No it doesnt. That verse says the heard the word of Truth right ? They had to be regenerated to do that.

 

[VARob]

No it doesnt. That verse says the heard the word of Truth right ? They had to be regenerated to do that.

The Pharisees heard the word of truth from Jesus Himself. Most of them decided not to believe him, and hence, were not saved.

 

[brightfame52]

God having worked out His purpose in the Lord Jesus Christ in eternity past does not mean you do not have to believe what God has written in His Word.

Romans 3:24, which you ripped from its context, has been utilized by you to support a dogma never intended by the Author of Scripture.

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


If you (or anyone else for that matter) do not believe what God promises in His Word, you will not receive the promise.

In other words, a person can hear the Word of God and reject what God has provided. In that case, the person does not receive ... not because God did not provide the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, but because the person rejected that which God has provided for all mankind (the world, the whole world).
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You are wasting up time and resources, forgiveness of sins comes before faith, before believing. A person who Christ died for, they are totally forgiven of their sins by His Blood Matt 26:28

28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Eph 1:7

in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

If a sinner born today, or yesterday, or 10 years ago happens to be a sinner Christ shed His Blood for, their sins are forgiven, and they dont even know it yet.

However, in due time God will send them the Gospel message that their sins are forgiven and they will receive a knowledge of it then. Thats why its written Acts 13:38

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

When God sends a preacher to someone whose sins are forgiven by the blood of Jesus, he causes them to receive the knowledge of it Acts 26:18

to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

God opens their eyes, spiritual eyes so they can begin to see, then thy receive the light of the Gospel, the knowledge of their forgiveness, they are given Faith in Christ whose blood shed provided for and merited their forgiveness.

 

[brightfame52]

The world of 2 Corinthians 5:19 is the world we currently live in.

We have a promise from God that He will create a new heavens and a new earth:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

That is the world which "doesn't have sin imputed to it".
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Again, does the world of 2 Cor 5:19 Paul identifies there, does it have any sins charged to it ? Yes or No ?

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

nope ... Israel in Acts 5:31 is the nation of Israel. The nation God promised to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob. Here is the Word which God spoke to Jacob

False, the ethnic nation of Israel isnt forgiven of their sins, nor has it been given repentance.

Israel there in Acts 5:31 is a Spiritual Israel comprised of jew and gentile, their forgivenss of sins comes through Christs Blood Matt 26:28

28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

nope ... quit reading your erroneous dogma into Scripture. Just read Scripture as God wrote it and believe what He wrote without manipulating His Word to fit your preconceived notion.

"world" in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 2 Corinthians 5:19, 1 John 2:2 is clearly defined in Thayer's:

World here is the saved world of jew and gentile

Everyone Christ died for is Justified by His blood Rom 5:9 and so they will be given Faith to believe it.
more manipulation of Scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world ... and whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.

Some folks believe the lie of the adversary and end up being cast into the lake of fire due to their own decision to reject that which God has so freely provided for them to be saved.

God's stated desire:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

Again everyone Jesus Christ died for is Justified, and will be given Faith to believe it.

brightfame52 said:
They have been eternally delivered from the penalty of sin which is death. Now you deny this !
Quit ignoring the point, brightfame52.


Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

I do not deny that verse. The Lord Jesus Christ obtained eternal redemption. Period.

The words "for us" were added to the text. The verse reads as follows:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.

Now, you want to include the words "for us" in order to manipulate the text to mean something never intended by the Author of Scripture? That is on you and I do not have to go there with you.

I will read the verse as intended by the Author and I absolutely believe the Lord Jesus Christ entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. Period.


Here is the verse as it appears in various versions ...


New International Version:

Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.


English Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us] the words appear in italics in the KJV to alert the reader that the words were added by the translators.


New King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


New American Standard Bible:

Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.


American Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


English Revised Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


International Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.
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Heb 9:12 is a testification that everyone Christ died for, by His Own Blood He has obtained for them eternal redemption, they have forever been redeemed from the penalty of sin. The word redemption means:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin