Who Were The Jusaizers? Are You One? Do You Know Anybody That Is?

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I'll need some relevant examples of what you mean by the two in order to answer that question.

Living as Jews according to pharisee law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow pharisee law, with its traditions.

Living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow Yahweh's Law (all of them), not promoting a single thing outside of Scripture.

for context of what Yahweh's Law is:

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."
 
Living as Jews according to pharisee law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow pharisee law, with its traditions.

Living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow Yahweh's Law (all of them), not promoting a single thing outside of Scripture.

for context of what Yahweh's Law is:

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."
These are generalizations.

I need relevant examples of what you mean by the two for comparison with one another
in order to answer your question.
 
These are generalizations.

I need relevant examples of what you mean by the two for comparison with one another
in order to answer your question.

.....................

For someone who has so strongly spoken about judaizers over and over I would think they would be alble to explain what they are and could easily answer this question with me providing a multiple choice field....

also I dont see how these are general, they each contain an exact set of Laws/way to live....

Living as Jews according to pharisee law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow pharisee law, with its traditions.

or
​

Living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow Yahweh's Law (all of them), not promoting a single thing outside of Scripture.

are you going to continually my multiple choic is not descriptive enough and then it will end with you not answering the question because my multiple choice did not capture the exact traits of something you have been championing here for some time?
 
These are generalizations.

I need relevant examples of what you mean by the two for comparison with one another
in order to answer your question.

.....................

For someone who has so strongly spoken about judaizers over and over I would think they would be alble to explain what they are and could easily answer this question with me providing a multiple choice field....

also I dont see how these are general, they each contain an exact set of Laws/way to live....

Living as Jews according to pharisee law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow pharisee law, with its traditions.

or
​

Living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law: "gentile" who follows and tells others to follow Yahweh's Law (all of them), not promoting a single thing outside of Scripture.

are you going to continually my multiple choic is not descriptive enough and then it will end with you not answering the question because my multiple choice did not capture the exact traits of something you have been championing here for some time?

??????????

51u35S8huLL.jpg
 
Wow. Great article. I full enjoyed reading it. I learned something. I'm gonna be honest. I love that feeling!! :D I study a lot, and most of it is covering the same material over and over. I really appreciated this.

I am fully gratified to see so many Messianic Torah believers here. About 10 years ago-ish I was involved in an online discussion board. Probably this one, but I could not find my profile. That person really isn't me anymore, anyhow.

At that time, any mention I made of Sabbath, Feast Days, and Torah was not welcome. Although that is still happening, it's all being discussed!! The names of Yahweh and Yeshua are commonplace, and there are so many Sabbath keepers. I admit, I was starting to feel all alone in the world. Hallelujah! The truth is being heard. :D Keep it up; we can pull one more into the boat. There's still time. ;)

This article is going to be very helpful toward that effort, thank you. This explains something that I admit didn't exactly make sense to me. Ken Hovind said that sometimes you have to agree you'll believe the Bible, and accept that it's true. Eventually, what you don't understand will be revealed to you. That's how I have felt about Acts 15; like I didn't have the whole picture, but I knew it would make sense eventually. Now it does. :D Thanks.
 
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Elin said:
These are generalizations.

I need
relevant examples of what you mean by the two sets of laws for comparison with one another
in order to answer your question as to which group of Jews I think Paul was referring in Gal 2:14.
For someone who has so strongly spoken about judaizers over and over
I would think
they would be alble to explain what they are
Would that not also apply to someone who has so strongly spoken about Jews living
according to "Pharisee law" vs. Jews living according to "God's law"?


And to refresh your memory:

I did explain what Paul's word Judaizer is; i.e., Jewish Christian "who lives as do the Jews."

You assert there were two groups of Jews living by two sets of laws,
and asked to which one did I think Paul was referring.

I need a demonstration of your assertion of two different sets of laws that I may examine them.

So, without demonstration from you regarding your two sets of laws,
I can only respond that he was referring to the only group there was.

and could easily answer this question with me providing a multiple choice field....
Non-responsive as demonstration.

also I dont see how these are general, they each contain an exact set of Laws/way to live....
And it is relevant examples from those two "exact set of laws" that I need in order to
examine and compare the two sets, to see if your assertion regarding "Pharisee law" is correct.

And then I need to know which group you assert was practicing "God's law" rather than "Pharisee law,"
if I am going to give an informed answer to your question: to which group was Paul referring?

In the absence of demonstration of your assertion, it is without merit.

So I've given the only answer I can give with the incomplete information I have regarding
the two sets of laws which you assert.

And your response to request for demonstration of your assertion is still

Non-responsive.
 
These are generalizations.

I need relevant examples of what you mean by the two for comparison with one another
in order to answer your question.

Hizikyah, you know better, you didn't give her the answer she wanted to hear.
 
Wow. Great article. I full enjoyed reading it. I learned something. I'm gonna be honest. I love that feeling!! :D I study a lot, and most of it is covering the same material over and over. I really appreciated this.

I am fully gratified to see so many Messianic Torah believers here. About 10 years ago-ish I was involved in an online discussion board. Probably this one, but I could not find my profile. That person really isn't me anymore, anyhow.

At that time, any mention I made of Sabbath, Feast Days, and Torah was not welcome. Although that is still happening, it's all being discussed!! The names of Yahweh and Yeshua are commonplace, and there are so many Sabbath keepers. I admit, I was starting to feel all alone in the world. Hallelujah! The truth is being heard. :D Keep it up; we can pull one more into the boat. There's still time. ;)

This article is going to be very helpful toward that effort, thank you. This explains something that I admit didn't exactly make sense to me. Ken Hovind said that sometimes you have to agree you'll believe the Bible, and accept that it's true. Eventually, what you don't understand will be revealed to you. That's how I have felt about Acts 15; like I didn't have the whole picture, but I knew it would make sense eventually. Now it does. :D Thanks.

Thank you, beautiful testimony!

Believing in Jesus as the Son of the one true God most my life, yet I could not understand the bulk of the Bible. Recently God gave me a strong desire to know Him, as I read this verse:
[h=3]Romans 10:13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Though I'd read that verse many times, I cried out "What is the Name?" Since that time many truths have been revealed, and has been life changing. There is discrepancy over 1 letter of His Name YaHoVaH/YaHWeY, but we are trying to know, and some day we will all know. The Name, just like the Feasts and Laws, times and seasons, the Creator's Calendar, all have been far removed from this generation. I support all who diligently seek to know these things, and to educate us who want to know the Truth.

Many men women and children have given their lives to preserve YaH's Word. It may not be in the form of purest, as in first delivered to the Prophets, but it is sufficient for anyone who diligently seek His will. It behooves us in this day, this day of increased knowledge and running to and fro, to shout from the rooftops what we have been entrusted with. To preach the Gospel of YaHshua, which is the will, and not contrary, to the will of our Father. For YaHshua said Himself:

"The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]he [/FONT] (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]their [/FONT]reforms ([FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]takanot[/FONT]) and [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]their[/FONT] precedents ([FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]ma‘asim[/FONT]) do not do, because they talk but do not do."
 
Thank you, beautiful testimony!

Believing in Jesus as the Son of the one true God most my life, yet I could not understand the bulk of the Bible. Recently God gave me a strong desire to know Him, as I read this verse:
Romans 10:13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Though I'd read that verse many times, I cried out "What is the Name?" Since that time many truths have been revealed, and has been life changing. There is discrepancy over 1 letter of His Name YaHoVaH/YaHWeY, but we are trying to know, and some day we will all know. The Name, just like the Feasts and Laws, times and seasons, the Creator's Calendar, all have been far removed from this generation. I support all who diligently seek to know these things, and to educate us who want to know the Truth.

Many men women and children have given their lives to preserve YaH's Word. It may not be in the form of purest, as in first delivered to the Prophets, but it is sufficient for anyone who diligently seek His will. It behooves us in this day, this day of increased knowledge and running to and fro, to shout from the rooftops what we have been entrusted with. To preach the Gospel of YaHshua, which is the will, and not contrary, to the will of our Father. For YaHshua said Himself:

"The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (ma‘asim) do not do, because they talk but do not do."

His name is His character, and His person. When we converse with others by mentioning a certain name, we make sure that the person hearing will know who we are talking about because of character. The reason I know this is because my 2 daughter-in laws are the same name as my own daughter, and my daughter married a man with the same name as I have. We need to distinguish the person rather than just the name that is spelled a certain way. Therefore Exodus 20:7 takes on a whole new meaning.

Exodus 20:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Improper representation is taking the "Lords name in vain."
 
generally put I would think "one would have noting to do with the rabble of the Jews."

SO which do you think this is talking about?

Living as Jews according to pharisee law

or

living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law

one? the other? both?
Hey Hizikyah,

Question about your question; in Paul's usage, how do you live as a Jew according to God's law when those calling themselves Jews adhered to Pharisee law? (unless I totally missed something)
 
His name is His character, and His person. When we converse with others by mentioning a certain name, we make sure that the person hearing will know who we are talking about because of character. The reason I know this is because my 2 daughter-in laws are the same name as my own daughter, and my daughter married a man with the same name as I have. We need to distinguish the person rather than just the name that is spelled a certain way. Therefore Exodus 20:7 takes on a whole new meaning.

Exodus 20:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Improper representation is taking the "Lords name in vain."

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. What I advocate is a restoration of the Word, and although the KJV has great importance, they have removed the Name of the Creator! Languages change, certainly, with every generation, and we are far removed from Messiah's day in speech. However, history shows it was persecution and superstition among some motives to remove the Name in scripture. As new discoveries are made concerning the Name, understanding becomes more clear.

KJV Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


LORD, is a substitution for the Name, it is a title, not a Name. To me, that looks like taking the Name in vain, for it is casting away the Name.
 
Would that not also apply to someone who has so strongly spoken about Jews living
according to "Pharisee law" vs. Jews living according to "God's law"?
If I may return to how I think your concept of many thing scripture tells us is taking things to extreme so much it becomes as untruth, lets look at what you say about law.

All of the instructions God gives about law are instructions from God, and God is eternal. You say there are differences in law that comes from God, but there really aren't. You know that what happened on the cross made changes, even to law, but none of those changes are fundamental to the basic law.

New Testament scripture talks a lot about what Amos, Isaiah, etc. teaches. It Isaiah, God is even saying that God hated the sacrifices that God ordered in the first place. God ordered them as atonement through blood that represented Christ, and they were sacrificing in the same way idol worshippers were, in order to gain God's favor so God would send good crops. When the gospel was taken to the gentiles they were to be taught in the same way Isaiah teaches.

When these things are taken to the extremes you insist are right, it becomes wrong. We are told not to judge, for instance, those who honor the feasts. You can even learn the spiritual truths behind the feasts, we are told, and allowed to not use them to express our understanding. But we are never told to ignore what God is saying, even about the feasts.
 
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. What I advocate is a restoration of the Word, and although the KJV has great importance, they have removed the Name of the Creator! Languages change, certainly, with every generation, and we are far removed from Messiah's day in speech. However, history shows it was persecution and superstition among some motives to remove the Name in scripture. As new discoveries are made concerning the Name, understanding becomes more clear.

KJV Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


LORD, is a substitution for the Name, it is a title, not a Name. To me, that looks like taking the Name in vain, for it is casting away the Name.

I speak not of languages, or interpretations, but the Spiritual meaning of God's personage.
It's the same mindset as understanding that the Feast of Tabernacles is actually the journey started after being born again.
 
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I speak not of languages, or interpretations, but the Spiritual meaning of God's personage.
It's the same mindset as understanding that the Feast of Tabernacles is actually the journey started after being born again.

Yes, of course, thank you for explaining. I agree wholeheartedly!:)
 
Elin said:
Would that not also apply to someone who over and over has so strongly spoken about Jews living according to "Pharisee law" vs. Jews
living according to "God's law"?
If I may return to how I think
your concept of many thing scripture tells us is taking things to extreme so much it becomes as untruth,
lets look at what you say about law.

All of the instructions God gives about law are instructions from God, and God is eternal.
Are we keeping in mind that what the Son says is always instructions from God (Jn 12:49-50, 14:10,
7:16), and that the Son is God?

You say there are differences in law that comes from God, but there really aren't. You know that what happened on the cross made changes, even to law, but none of those changes are fundamental to the basic law.
Are we keeping in mind the radical difference regarding law which occurred with the New Covenant,
where salvation is by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9), no law involved (Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, Gal 2:16;
Php 3:9; Heb 11:7)?
And where sanctification is through the obedience of faith to the NT commands by the power of grace?

New Testament scripture talks a lot about what Amos, Isaiah, etc. teaches. It Isaiah, God is even saying that
God hated the sacrifices that God ordered in the first place. God ordered them as atonement through blood that represented Christ, and they were sacrificing in the same way idol worshippers were, in order to gain God's favor so God would send good crops. When the gospel was taken to the gentiles they were to be taught in the same way Isaiah teaches.
We need to revisit that. . .for offering sacrifices to get good crops was not the issue.

God did not hate his own ordinance of sacrifices,
he hated the sacrifices which they offered because they were offered in hypocrisy,
with no repentance for their sin.

When these things are taken to the extremes you insist are right, it becomes wrong
The issue in Isa was not about going to extremes and offering sacrifices for the wrong purposes,
the issue was offering sacrifices with no repentance.

In Isa there was no going to extremes and making right things into wrong things.
There was only hypocrisy and no repentance.

We are told not to judge, for instance, those who honor the feasts.
Well, actually, Paul is writing to Christians in Colosse, who were a mixture of Gentiles and Jews.

The Christian Judaizers were judging the Christian Gentiles because they did not observe the
Jewish practices of the feasts and Sabbaths.
Paul reminds them to pay no attention to the Judaizers, because those practices were only shadows,
not the reality themselves, which are found only in Christ (Col 2:16-17), and they had the reality
in Christ.

If Paul were speaking to those observing the feasts, rather than about those observing the feasts,
his comments about the feasts being only shadows and not realities themselves is out of context.

No, Paul was speaking about the Judaizers judging the Gentiles because the Gentiles did not
observe the Jewish feasts and Sabbaths.

You can even learn the spiritual truths behind the feasts, we are told, and allowed
to not use them to express our understanding. But we are never told to ignore what God is saying,
even about the feasts.
Keeping in mind that the Son is also God, and whatever he says is what God says.

You are free to observe the shadows if you choose.

However, it is not something the NT recommends:

"How is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles?
Do you wish to be enslaved to them all over again?
You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
I fear for you, that I might have wasted my efforts on you."
(Gal 4:9-11)

It's hard to understand why anyone would need the shadows when they possess the realities.
And it opens the door for the shadow to become more important than the reality itself. (Gal 4:9)

Just sayin'.
 
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Please keep in mind ,when Jesus says, "the Kingdom of God is like.." He is not prophesying about the New Testament changes in the Kingdom but the reality of what God's kingdom has always been and always will be in the N.T. age. The Kingdom of God is the SAME in all ages; I am talking of the real SPIRITUAL kingdom of being :BORN of GOD and living a life of faith and good deeds, in and for God. The false prophets in the O. & the N. T.s have always been around doing their dirt word of denying and changing and adding to the laws of God , thid is still going on today. On the one hand the changes are call: LEGALISM (adding to the laws of God, mans laws)and on the other hand the changes are called ANTINOMINISM (no law keeping, doing what ever YOUR heart dictates). Love to all, Hoffco
 
I try not to get entangled in an argument with any one, a debate is different, more civil,yet the debate can get so deep, I loose track of where we are going, especially with three or more in on it. I like to just share the scriptures and historical facts. The fact is: At first the Gospel spread by word of mouth and 1,000's were converted. the Gospels were written within about 20plus yrs.?? after Jesus left earth. I think the only book to be written after 70ad, after the temple was destroyed, was Rev., about 96ad.. therefore it was the original disciples plus Paul and James, Jesus' half brother, and Luke, BUT all these were alive in Jesus day. The disciples of the first disciples put the Book, The Bible, together , canonized the Bible,early after the original disciples died. This is very good proof, we have a trustworthy Bible. And, today, we have 1,000s of copies of the original books.The commentaries on ,about, the Bible, are not as trustworthy as the Bible itself. We know Jesus hated the laws of the scripts and Pharisees and Saducees, and Horodians and we have to be careful of who we read on the Bible. We can understand must of the Bible by itself. the idea that the Hebrew O.T. is more trustworthy than the Greek N.T. is a bunch of boloney. And the English "The Lord Jesus Christ is as authoritative as the Hebrew counter part. And Jesus called Himself the "I AM" which is the name of God in ENG.. We can not be sure of the Heb. name YAHWEH, we don't know the original vowels. And Jehovah is Latin. All are OK, WE KNOW WHO WE MEAN. Love to all Hoffco
 
My cents worth. People love to keep law because it something that they can do or try to do. In essence it glorifies self and negates the work of the cross. Its saying I don't need Jesus I can keep this law when effect you cannot.

It scratches itching ears and makes us feel good.
 
My cents worth. People love to keep law because it something that they can do or try to do. In essence it glorifies self and negates the work of the cross. Its saying I don't need Jesus I can keep this law when effect you cannot.

It scratches itching ears and makes us feel good.

Approximately 40,000 new laws are set to take effect this year. From pets to tanning beds, you name it, there's a law for it.

I'll take God's Law over man's law every day of the week.