Why Are Women Expected to be the Gatekeepers of Virginity?

[seoulsearch]

I know you're mad at me.

I'm actually not mad at you at all. I'm pretty used to these kinds of encounters.

After all, it started at the very beginning of this thread, just with another member.

I'm just sitting back and reading while you get it all out.

 

[Lynx]

Okay, now you're knowingly taking what I said out of context. I'm not calling you names here, but rather putting out that you don't understand (and seems like you don't want to). Not understanding something doesn't equate to stupidity and you know that, so don't go there with me. And Lynx is a troll because part of being a troll is to see what you're made of and get you to slip up. I'm making the adult decision to ignore him.

Where are you getting that I want a flock of women after me? I guess if there is, send them my way. You'll hear no arguments from me and pay you back later!

Anyway, I'm not demanding that women come after me. Honestly, I don't know if I have a woman interested in me right now or not (one in particular, but that's a story for another time). Would it be great to be in a relationship right now with a woman? Definitely, especially with someone that likes me for me and is a genuine person. Is it difficult right now, given the circumstances of today's world? Yes, and it's getting harder. Does that mean I'll give up entirely? No, I have no real reason to, other than I'll remain single. If God shows me that I'm to be that way the rest of my life, I'll gladly accept it. He's in control of destiny and would be for the better, if that is the case. I don't bend over backwards to these feminists that are running around telling everyone all men (that are not the Chads) are evil. Their position comes out of a place of hate, not of God.

You can believe what you want and choose not to accept what I say. That's fine by me. You can call me whatever you want as well. I don't care. But don't try to take things out of context of what I said, which you clearly did, and try to claim that I'm going out my way to insult you because I'm not. I know you're mad at me, but at least be truthful about what's said on here.

Wow! You are really going all in on this trolling thing. Maybe it's a persecution complex...

Even if I wanted to troll you, I wouldn't have to. You are doing a great job trolling yourself.

Right now it's fascinating to just sit back and watch how far you will go to try to get in the last word.

I need more popcorn. BRB.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hey Everyone,

This thread was inspired by a conversation with a friend about church culture, as well as reading through some posts here in a thread about The Purity Culture (though I haven't had a chance to watch the video that was shared.)

I grew up in WELS Lutheran schools, and while I can't remember the pastors or teachers ever explicitly saying this (because sex was never talked about except not to have anything to do with it unless you were married,) but my home church had a very strongly implied culture that although abstinence was preached, women in particular were shouldered with the responsibility of making sure nothing improper happened.

I can't remember anyone specifically saying this, but you could definitely feel the air of "GOOD girls put up walls and surround them with barbed wire, electric fences; BAD girls are loose and do all those horrible things that a GOOD girl would NEVER do."

How was this so strongly imprinted without every being specifically stated?

I have often talked about how if a girl became pregnant at my Lutheran high school, the mothers were kept from coming back. In the one case that happened while I was there, the mother could not come back, but the father finished out his time at the school. The mother was heavily condemned amongst the gossiping circles, but I never heard anything about the father.


In a similar fashion, other kids talked about other girls who were supposedly "doing things" with their boyfriends (you always heard about how "bad" the girls were -- never the boys,) and by listening to how the adults talked about single and divorced mothers (which was something very strongly condemned in the underground currents of my home church.) Any girl or woman who was suspected of "immoral behavior" was openly whispered about (I realize this phrase is an oxymoron but it's extremely fitting,) and there was absolutely no mention or judgment of the men involved.

Now, let me be clear in that I am NOT in any way, shape, or form trying to knock the men here.

But as I've said in many other threads, the popular boys at my Lutheran high school were known for bragging about going to the local strip club every weekend, and one openly showed off the condoms he kept in his wallet. But no one seemed to pay any mind to that or ever say anything derogatory about them -- other kids saw them as the cool rebels whom others aspired to be like and be with.

I've always found it to be an intriguing, albeit disturbing phenomenon within even the church culture that women are always seen as the ones to say no, stop anything from going to far, and being responsible for holding the key to the gates of sexual morality. Now I realize that this attitude has a very long social history and culture outside the church as well.

But why is it still like this within the church?

* Why isn't there more emphasis on the equal role of both men and women to remain morally sound and keep things that way? Why does even the church hold on to old-fashioned beliefs that it's mostly the woman's fault if something happens?

Or maybe that's just the church culture I'VE been raised in. If yours has been different, please tell us about it! I would actually be very relieved to hear that I'm in the minority and that everyone else's churches hold both men and women equally responsible.

* In your experience, how much emphasis is put on boys saying "No," "Stop," and "I Won't Do That"?

* Why are women more seriously punished for sexual sins?

Again, I would love to hear examples that counter my own experiences. I grew up listening to church people wagging their tongues about, for example, a divorced mother whose daughter I went to school with, and the women I heard talking about her claimed that the mother had "a revolving door for men." (I was so young at the time that I thought this mean an actual revolving door that was installed into the side of their house.)

I have no idea if this was true or not about the woman's personal life or not, and I'm not sure that the people who talked about her really knew, either.

But I can't recall that I have ever heard anyone in my church environments talk about a single father having a revolving door for women, whether or not it was true.

* Why is this, and what have your experiences been?

* Did God really intend for sexual morality to rest more heavily upon women's shoulders?

* This is NOT meant to be a He Vs. She thread at all -- to me, it's not so much about gender, but rather, what we're taught about the different genders, is it Biblically sound, and how can this be changed if needed?

Wow sister, I see some sparks have been raised in this thread. Starting to look like the BDF, oh my! To answer your question, from my view, I think unfortunately even inside the church there still may be that "atta boy" attitude in the church. He got himself a woman. He shoots he scores ideal. Not everyone raises their sons that way. I have been open with my nephews and told my sister I will never lie to them if they come to me about these issues. The oldest one has and I was very direct with him.

We had an " open secret" when I was in youth group. I was a shy kid and I never really fit it with the youth no matter how hard my parents tried to encourage me. I disliked the youth pastor who seemed to like embarrassing me around the youth. He had a sidekick, a guy in his 30s in the church that hung out with him and the youth. The girls in the church loved this guy and followed him like little sheep. My grandmother who had a lot of discernment always asked me why the girls followed him so much. Maybe she was trying to alert me, IDK. As I got a little older I found the secret out. This guy had a business and in the upstairs he had a private tanning salon. He was bringing the young girls up to his business and getting his jollies watching them. He was never charged with anything, I don't know how he wasn't. But the fact that so many people in the church knew this shocked me. The thing is he was married and his wife looked the other way. smh

So yes, I believe there is still a stigma where men can slide past where a woman couldn't. If men could get pregnant I guess it would be different. All I know is my father always told me "If you have sex before marriage the man gets off scott free. You'll be the one with the bad name. It's not fair, but it's true."

 

[herkamer63]

I'm actually not mad at you at all. I'm pretty used to these kinds of encounters.

After all, it started at the very beginning of this thread, just with another member.

I'm just sitting back and reading while you get it all out.

No, you're angry. The way you worded your responses and the way you took what I said way out of context (like that was the intent) says it all. The way you presented the question of this thread indicates you are. The only thing I'm getting out is the other side of the argument and you don't like it. Otherwise, you would have setup the thread differently. So I'll leave with this: do your research on the stuff I brought up and take time to understand the situation of each man that may have been in bad relationships. Most of those men are good people and need some guidance on what to watch out for so they don't get hurt again. I want both men AND women living happily, but if there's one side having more problems than the other and the stories are very similar, start asking questions and look at both sides. You don't know until you take the time to buckle down and study it. I hope you have a better day.

 

[Lynx]

MGTOW much?

If you think men have more problems than women, you sure don't know much about women.

 

[JohnDB]

Wow sister, I see some sparks have been raised in this thread. Starting to look like the BDF, oh my! To answer your question, from my view, I think unfortunately even inside the church there still may be that "atta boy" attitude in the church. He got himself a woman. He shoots he scores ideal. Not everyone raises their sons that way. I have been open with my nephews and told my sister I will never lie to them if they come to me about these issues. The oldest one has and I was very direct with him.

We had an " open secret" when I was in youth group. I was a shy kid and I never really fit it with the youth no matter how hard my parents tried to encourage me. I disliked the youth pastor who seemed to like embarrassing me around the youth. He had a sidekick, a guy in his 30s in the church that hung out with him and the youth. The girls in the church loved this guy and followed him like little sheep. My grandmother who had a lot of discernment always asked me why the girls followed him so much. Maybe she was trying to alert me, IDK. As I got a little older I found the secret out. This guy had a business and in the upstairs he had a private tanning salon. He was bringing the young girls up to his business and getting his jollies watching them. He was never charged with anything, I don't know how he wasn't. But the fact that so many people in the church knew this shocked me. The thing is he was married and his wife looked the other way. smh

So yes, I believe there is still a stigma where men can slide past where a woman couldn't. If men could get pregnant I guess it would be different. All I know is my father always told me "If you have sex before marriage the man gets off scott free. You'll be the one with the bad name. It's not fair, but it's true."

I'm thinking that it has something to do with the whole conquering hero thingy.

Men are very different than women in that we don't bond over sharing our most emotional moments in the past year...
Men bond over sharing in battles and in constructing things together.
So as we tell stories about victories...guys get to be the conqueror but women get the unfortunate distinction of being the conquered.

It's not really true...but it's the fashion that men relate to one another with.

We can fuss about it all day long but it's partly because of the hardwiring that also gives men the ability to lead more effectively and fearlessly.

 

[seoulsearch]

No, you're angry. The way you worded your responses and the way you took what I said way out of context (like that was the intent) says it all. The way you presented the question of this thread indicates you are. The only thing I'm getting out is the other side of the argument and you don't like it. Otherwise, you would have setup the thread differently. So I'll leave with this: do your research on the stuff I brought up and take time to understand the situation of each man that may have been in bad relationships. Most of those men are good people and need some guidance on what to watch out for so they don't get hurt again. I want both men AND women living happily, but if there's one side having more problems than the other and the stories are very similar, start asking questions and look at both sides. You don't know until you take the time to buckle down and study it. I hope you have a better day.

You sure are an interesting one, Herk.

To sum up your posts, you've tried to tell me: what question I should have asked in my thread, how I think, and now, how I feel.

Do you do this to other people as well?

Well, if it makes you feel better, Herk, keep on going.

I'm not here to stop you.

 

[seoulsearch]

All I know is my father always told me "If you have sex before marriage the man gets off scott free. You'll be the one with the bad name. It's not fair, but it's true."

This is one of the many question I want to ask God someday. He designed human reproduction the way it is obviously knowing what would happen and the attitudes that it would result in.

Actually, I've always wondered why He designed sex the way that it is. I mean, He could have made reproduction could have been something bland and generic. He didn't have to put a drive in human beings that lures them into seeking sex out.

I do understand wanted to give married couples what would He hoped they would see as a binding, sacred gift.

But God also knew humanity would twist it into things like fetishes, sexual crimes, pedophilia, adultery, etc. He knew that eventually, more people would be using it for evil rather than for good.

But for some reason, He still chose what He did for it, and I have always wondered why (not as a criticism of course, but I am fascinated by God's thought processes and wish I knew more about them.)

 

[JohnDB]

This is one of the many question I want to ask God someday. He designed human reproduction the way it is obviously knowing what would happen and the attitudes that it would result in.

Actually, I've always wondered why He designed sex the way that it is. I mean, He could have made reproduction could have been something bland and generic. He didn't have to put a drive in human beings that lures them into seeking sex out.

I do understand wanted to give married couples what would He hoped they would see as a binding, sacred gift.

But God also knew humanity would twist it into things like fetishes, sexual crimes, pedophilia, adultery, etc. He knew that eventually, more people would be using it for evil rather than for good.

But for some reason, He still chose what He did for it, and I have always wondered why (not as a criticism of course, but I am fascinated by God's thought processes and wish I knew more about them.)

It's because girls are icky...
And if it weren't for that whole sex drive thing I'd rather hang out with the guys.

 

[seoulsearch]

It's because girls are icky...
And if it weren't for that whole sex drive thing I'd rather hang out with the guys.

Well, I guess I at least have to give you 3 points for honesty, Sir!

 

[kaylagrl]

I'm thinking that it has something to do with the whole conquering hero thingy.

Men are very different than women in that we don't bond over sharing our most emotional moments in the past year...
Men bond over sharing in battles and in constructing things together.
So as we tell stories about victories...guys get to be the conqueror but women get the unfortunate distinction of being the conquered.

It's not really true...but it's the fashion that men relate to one another with.

We can fuss about it all day long but it's partly because of the hardwiring that also gives men the ability to lead more effectively and fearlessly.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I saw they did a study once where they put two little girls in a room together and in no time they were talking about ponies and princesses. They did the same thing to two little boys and they said nothing to each other. lol Perhaps if they had some play tools a conversation would have happened. We're different, the more we try to deny it, the more it's true. God had different roles for us to play.

 

[Lynx]

This is one of the many question I want to ask God someday. He designed human reproduction the way it is obviously knowing what would happen and the attitudes that it would result in.

Actually, I've always wondered why He designed sex the way that it is. I mean, He could have made reproduction could have been something bland and generic. He didn't have to put a drive in human beings that lures them into seeking sex out.

I do understand wanted to give married couples what would He hoped they would see as a binding, sacred gift.

But God also knew humanity would twist it into things like fetishes, sexual crimes, pedophilia, adultery, etc. He knew that eventually, more people would be using it for evil rather than for good.

But for some reason, He still chose what He did for it, and I have always wondered why (not as a criticism of course, but I am fascinated by God's thought processes and wish I knew more about them.)

Humans have a genius for taking good things and making them bad for selfish reasons.

God put sweet in sugar cane and sugar beets, foods loaded with vitamins and minerals. Man took the sweet out, concentrated it and used it to make other things sweet, making something good into something that is causing a bad health problem for a lot of people.

God made skin that reacts to sunlight by altering its own composition to defend against damage. Humans decided they liked the way the defense mechanism looked, so they intentionally damage themselves to get the color they want.

No way are we not going to leave sex alone. We're going to do anything and twist anything to get what we want.

 

[kaylagrl]

This is one of the many question I want to ask God someday. He designed human reproduction the way it is obviously knowing what would happen and the attitudes that it would result in.

Actually, I've always wondered why He designed sex the way that it is. I mean, He could have made reproduction could have been something bland and generic. He didn't have to put a drive in human beings that lures them into seeking sex out.

I do understand wanted to give married couples what would He hoped they would see as a binding, sacred gift.

But God also knew humanity would twist it into things like fetishes, sexual crimes, pedophilia, adultery, etc. He knew that eventually, more people would be using it for evil rather than for good.
t h
But for some reason, He still chose what He did for it, and I have always wondered why (not as a criticism of course, but I am fascinated by God's thought processes and wish I knew more about them.)

I think we really are stubborn as people. Perhaps in the garden it was different. Everything was perfect. It was after the fall where that drive kicked in. When God said be fruitful and multiply, He meant it. If we were all gay how would society survive. I think that is way God had to dangle a carrot in front of us to do what He wanted us to do. We aren't known for being good listeners.

 

[kaylagrl]

You sure are an interesting one, Herk.

To sum up your posts, you've tried to tell me: what question I should have asked in my thread, how I think, and now, how I feel.

Do you do this to other people as well?

Well, if it makes you feel better, Herk, keep on going.

I'm not here to stop you.

Don't worry sister, we all know you well around here. We know you're heart and you intent. No one would question your faithfulness to the Lord, you're sincerity or honesty. Don't let one gnat bother you. <3

 

[Lynx]

No, you're angry. The way you worded your responses and the way you took what I said way out of context (like that was the intent) says it all. The way you presented the question of this thread indicates you are. The only thing I'm getting out is the other side of the argument and you don't like it. Otherwise, you would have setup the thread differently. So I'll leave with this: do your research on the stuff I brought up and take time to understand the situation of each man that may have been in bad relationships. Most of those men are good people and need some guidance on what to watch out for so they don't get hurt again. I want both men AND women living happily, but if there's one side having more problems than the other and the stories are very similar, start asking questions and look at both sides. You don't know until you take the time to buckle down and study it. I hope you have a better day.

So let's review:

You can play three notes. The first note is, "Women have stacked the deck against men." The second note is played if somebody disagrees with you, "you have no idea what you are talking about because you need to do more research." And if nothing else avails, you play the "you're trolling me!" note.

And you play them over and over.

Do you have any other notes you can play or is this just a three-note song?

 

[JohnDB]

God put sweet in sugar cane and sugar beets

Sugar beets aren't sweet. They need processing to turn their starch into sugar. But it changes really easily...which is why these football sized beets are used.

 

[JohnDB]

Humans have a genius for taking good things and making them bad for selfish reasons.

God put sweet in sugar cane and sugar beets, foods loaded with vitamins and minerals. Man took the sweet out, concentrated it and used it to make other things sweet, making something good into something that is causing a bad health problem for a lot of people.

God made skin that reacts to sunlight by altering its own composition to defend against damage. Humans decided they liked the way the defense mechanism looked, so they intentionally damage themselves to get the color they want.

No way are we not going to leave sex alone. We're going to do anything and twist anything to get what we want.

The heart is always deceitfully wicked.

 

[kaylagrl]

Sugar beets aren't sweet. They need processing to turn their starch into sugar. But it changes really easily...which is why these football sized beets are used.

Ugh at every holiday table my father wanted beets. I tried them as a kid and hated them. So much so that I haven't tasted them again to see if my taste changed. I don't even like the look of them. Don't know why I had to add that information...

 

[seoulsearch]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I saw they did a study once where they put two little girls in a room together and in no time they were talking about ponies and princesses. They did the same thing to two little boys and they said nothing to each other. lol Perhaps if they had some play tools a conversation would have happened. We're different, the more we try to deny it, the more it's true. God had different roles for us to play.

I always wonder how much social conditioning has to do with it.

I mean, little girls are bombarded with advertising for princess and pony merchandise and anything made for girls is pink and sparkly. Every kids show or move reinforces the notion that "princesses are for girls, trucks are for boys."

If they did a study with kids who had grown up on a farm with both expecting to do farm work and had never seen commercial entertainment or advertisements, would the kids react differently?

I think they just might. Granted, the boys probably still wouldn't have anything to say to each other, lol.

My grandparents were fruit farmers and they were out every day from before sunrise to after sunset. I can still remember seeing my Grandma as a kid, up on the top of an old-fashioned cherry shaker, and she took hold of that tree and shook the bazookas out of it. After God called her home, my Grandpa emotionally described the days when the two of them were young and had just gotten the farm, and how they had measured out all the lines of where to plant to crops together.

My Grandma was beautiful and no doubt feminine, as well as being the only girl out of about 8 boys on both sides of the family. Her biggest fashion splurge was a collection of round plastic earrings she wore every day.

The only things my grandparents watched on TV (they preferred the newspaper) was the news and Lawrence Welk.

My Grandma had absolutely no interest in shopping, jewelry, or makeup, and certainly wasn't into princesses or ponies -- there was too much work to do.

But she also did all the cooking, and when she died, my Grandpa refused to even learn how to use a microwave because that was "woman's work."

One of the biggest concerns we had was that he would starve to death, because he knew everything about growing his own food, but absolutely nothing about how to prepare it.

 

[Lynx]

Sugar beets aren't sweet. They need processing to turn their starch into sugar. But it changes really easily...which is why these football sized beets are used.

Eh? I've never tried them plain myself. All I get is the bag of sugar from the store, sugar that was made from beets.

Now I'm wondering how one bakes a sugar beet... If you bake a sweet potato at low heat for a long time it jumpstarts the conversion from starch to sugar, resulting in a very sweet potato indeed. Wonder if that would work the same for sugar beets... assuming one ever wanted to bake a sugar beet.