Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The problem with this is, how can one compare one horrible event with another, and say one is worse than other? By what measure? Is one war more bloody? Are there more deaths? Does it involve more of the earth's territories and nations? Does it last longer? It really matters what Jesus means by saying this is the "worst" tribulation, right?
Well, I've studied this out, and the best I can do is look specifically at the context of what Jesus was saying. If we compare all 3 synoptic Gospels of the Olivet Discourse, and find them all saying the same things in slightly different words, then let's look at Luke 21. There, this "great tribulation," or "great distress," is being described as a "Jewish punishment." And Jesus said it begins with the destruction of the temple, which was in 70 AD, and lasts until the end of the age.
This can be nothing other than the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age! It's amazing to me that so many are missing this. It is so transparent and clear! Jesus is here, still under the Law of Moses, still talking to Israel as the only "chosen people," telling them that their religion would be destroyed in their generation, their temple ruined, and their relationship with God destroyed until a much later time, following a great dispersion.
Seeing and accepting this plain reality we can see what Jesus meant by the worst tragedy in Israel's history, the "great tribulation." It was the longest period of judgment in Israel's history, and included the complete destruction of Judaism. Their covenant under the Law ended forever, and can only be salvaged under a new covenant, apart from the Law. That is what the greatest tribulation means. That is what the "Great Tribulation" refers to.
It's incredible that this simple reality is rejected, but it is--often! I think it's because people want to believe other things. They might want to see Israel done for all time, replaced by the Church. They may want to believe Antichrist will be the most awful thing in history, from which the Church can escape by a Pretrib Rapture. They may simply choose to see everything through the lens of futurism, and ignore historically-fulfilled prophecies. But it's something I fight against every day.
Well, I've studied this out, and the best I can do is look specifically at the context of what Jesus was saying. If we compare all 3 synoptic Gospels of the Olivet Discourse, and find them all saying the same things in slightly different words, then let's look at Luke 21. There, this "great tribulation," or "great distress," is being described as a "Jewish punishment." And Jesus said it begins with the destruction of the temple, which was in 70 AD, and lasts until the end of the age.
This can be nothing other than the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age! It's amazing to me that so many are missing this. It is so transparent and clear! Jesus is here, still under the Law of Moses, still talking to Israel as the only "chosen people," telling them that their religion would be destroyed in their generation, their temple ruined, and their relationship with God destroyed until a much later time, following a great dispersion.
Seeing and accepting this plain reality we can see what Jesus meant by the worst tragedy in Israel's history, the "great tribulation." It was the longest period of judgment in Israel's history, and included the complete destruction of Judaism. Their covenant under the Law ended forever, and can only be salvaged under a new covenant, apart from the Law. That is what the greatest tribulation means. That is what the "Great Tribulation" refers to.
It's incredible that this simple reality is rejected, but it is--often! I think it's because people want to believe other things. They might want to see Israel done for all time, replaced by the Church. They may want to believe Antichrist will be the most awful thing in history, from which the Church can escape by a Pretrib Rapture. They may simply choose to see everything through the lens of futurism, and ignore historically-fulfilled prophecies. But it's something I fight against every day.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
The only one who keeps bringing up Josephus with regard to the Great Tribulation is AandW. You're literally in a war of words with yourself right now. You're mauling a scarecrow.
This is why properly defining terms is important, as well as holding a proper reading of the text.
Tribulation isn't just about destruction of their home. Tribulation includes:
- Death of the people
- Destruction of their Home
- Others being in possession/control of their homeland
- Scattering of the people across the world, and
- Persecution/mistreatment of the people by the nations they were scattered to...
...and that this would happen for MANY, MANY, MANY days in fulfillment of what is WRITTEN in (OT) scripture, which necessitates reading ALL of the prophecies that the prophets wrote about the scattering of the people...and they are numerous.
Luke 21:22
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
So the stuff you mentioned in the quote just above my post here about the Jews ARE INCLUDED in the DAYS OF great tribulation that was prophesied (and MORE), which BEGAN with the 70 AD destruction of their home.
All one needs to do is take a walk through the history of the Jews after 70 AD to see just how much they were the "toilet paper" of humanity (no Josephus needed. Heck, use Wikipedia): inquisitions, theft of property, blamed for diseases like the black death, herded into quarters not allowed into other areas of town, kicked out of countries, mocked, etc...along with the stuff you mentioned about them.
YES, ALL of it was/is under the umbrella of "the DAYS/TIME of great tribulation." Their fall EQUALS the Nations' blessing. Their diminishing EQUALS the nations' riches (Romans 11).
This is why properly defining terms is important, as well as holding a proper reading of the text.
Tribulation isn't just about destruction of their home. Tribulation includes:
- Death of the people
- Destruction of their Home
- Others being in possession/control of their homeland
- Scattering of the people across the world, and
- Persecution/mistreatment of the people by the nations they were scattered to...
...and that this would happen for MANY, MANY, MANY days in fulfillment of what is WRITTEN in (OT) scripture, which necessitates reading ALL of the prophecies that the prophets wrote about the scattering of the people...and they are numerous.
Luke 21:22
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
So the stuff you mentioned in the quote just above my post here about the Jews ARE INCLUDED in the DAYS OF great tribulation that was prophesied (and MORE), which BEGAN with the 70 AD destruction of their home.
All one needs to do is take a walk through the history of the Jews after 70 AD to see just how much they were the "toilet paper" of humanity (no Josephus needed. Heck, use Wikipedia): inquisitions, theft of property, blamed for diseases like the black death, herded into quarters not allowed into other areas of town, kicked out of countries, mocked, etc...along with the stuff you mentioned about them.
YES, ALL of it was/is under the umbrella of "the DAYS/TIME of great tribulation." Their fall EQUALS the Nations' blessing. Their diminishing EQUALS the nations' riches (Romans 11).
-
1
- Show all
< Well this historicist claims the Jews are more likely just at the end of their time of great tribulation (if not just past it), while all historicist will agree that we're definitely not in the Mill Reign yet.
The following point I'm about to make is where many historicists can differ, however from my POV verse 29 is it's own separate event that can span an indeterminate amount of time. In other words...
Immediately after the time of great tribulation will come astronomical signs & earthly upheaval (including series of solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, falling meteors, and the natural order of nature being disturbed)...which is LITERALLY what the world has been experiencing in the last few decades or so. Notice what Luke 21:25-26 says just after the verses about the Jews' time of punishment...
Luke 21:25-26
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
So here again we have a description of the earth falling into disorder immediately after the Jews' time of punishment:
- Signs in the Sun
- Signs in the moon
- Signs in the stars
- the nations enter their OWN distress, questioning what's going on
- Seas acting weird
- People afraid about what's happening to the earth
- Nature falling out of order
..."and then" comes the verse about the Son of Man appearing.
The same order of events is also detailed in Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
...and then the appearance of the Son of Man after those events.
----
So I believe we're right at the cusp of the Messiah's return as we continue to experience all of these heavenly and earthly signs occurring.
The following point I'm about to make is where many historicists can differ, however from my POV verse 29 is it's own separate event that can span an indeterminate amount of time. In other words...
Immediately after the time of great tribulation will come astronomical signs & earthly upheaval (including series of solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, falling meteors, and the natural order of nature being disturbed)...which is LITERALLY what the world has been experiencing in the last few decades or so. Notice what Luke 21:25-26 says just after the verses about the Jews' time of punishment...
Luke 21:25-26
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
So here again we have a description of the earth falling into disorder immediately after the Jews' time of punishment:
- Signs in the Sun
- Signs in the moon
- Signs in the stars
- the nations enter their OWN distress, questioning what's going on
- Seas acting weird
- People afraid about what's happening to the earth
- Nature falling out of order
..."and then" comes the verse about the Son of Man appearing.
The same order of events is also detailed in Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
...and then the appearance of the Son of Man after those events.
----
So I believe we're right at the cusp of the Messiah's return as we continue to experience all of these heavenly and earthly signs occurring.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
But you're still ignoring the point that if we just read [history] about the 70 A.D. Event, there's no connection to Tribulation. The only way to connect Tribulation to 70 A.D. is through the notes of Josephus. So, without Josephus, one does not consider 70 A.D. to be a Tribulation Event. But with Josephus, one connects the dots.
So whether you skirt it or not, YOU are still using JOSEPHUS to make your claim!
Exactly!
But to believe 70 A.D. was a Tribulation Event, it takes not historians that can properly account this was not a big deal, but it takes the writings of Josephus the Traitor.
So you are either aligning yourself here with actual historians or the writings of Josephus.
There's no other way around it.
Interesting!
I will actually take this into consideration.
Many who conclude as you have went as far to claim we are now in the Mill Reign and all prophecy is complete.
But your Views are new and worth looking into
I will actually take this into consideration.
Many who conclude as you have went as far to claim we are now in the Mill Reign and all prophecy is complete.
But your Views are new and worth looking into
-
1
- Show all
I do realize and it's been proven based upon every year Jews had to register so a proper count was known. And the fact is that Josephus exaggerated roughly 970,000 deaths that factually [never] took place and the majority of the Jews were able to move back to their homes after Rome left because the destruction was once again exaggerated by Josephus. This is where my issue lies at by using his numbers as fact when they are historically proven to not be factual.