Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

[Runningman]

they have eternal judgment and torment

" Eternal life " every believer has now while the flesh will die, the hope is the Resurrection. there is no LIFE in hell meaning it is a place where those in it desire death yet it will not come place hell is an eternal place with eternal consequences.

The only place I know of that speaks of people seeking death but not finding it is in Revelation 9:6 and the context is not about hell.

the punishment for sin is death that is why we die physically. God did not create us that way in the beginning. You can't have it both ways. if death was the end why did the blood of Abel cry out from the ground? And the Blood of Christ says a better thing than that of Abel's blood.

Bodily death is a consequence of original sin in the Garden of Eden. Everyone dies eventually, but not because they sinned. Christ was born sinless as a baby therefore babies are sinless yet babies still die a bodily death. Christ eventually died a bodily death when He was crucified.

The important thing to draw from this is that the punishment for sin is not a bodily death, but rather spiritual death.

1 John 5:12
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Jesus said it not me

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



Jesus said these will go to eternal punishment. That word eternal in Greek means a place without end, Forever Jesus said this makes any other scriptural reference you want to. Jesus when HE is speaking IS the supreme authority over ALL.

I don't think "eternal punishment" is a literal place, as in a geographical location, that someone can travel to or be placed in. Hell is a place, but Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't say anywhere that anyone is tormented forever. I believe the only eternal punishment is death.

Jesus taught on hell more than most topics. the argument is with the word Jesus said. and Matthew 25:31-46 is not the only paragraph Jesus has sid on the topic there are many parallel verses and other writers in both the Old and New Testament who speak of eternal judgment.

A judgment can be eternal if it is not subject to ever change, but the judgement is not the same thing as the sentence. A judgment can still exist long after someone has been sentenced to death, but someone can't exist after they're punished with death.

Really I think we are just reading the Bible entirely different. I still don't think eternal conscious torment is in the Bible or it would just plainly say so.

 

[CS1]

There are plenty of places in Holy Spirit breathed/inspired Scripture where eternal and forever do not mean without end but until God's purpose is accomplished. You can argue against this all day long until the cows come home but it will not change the facts... facts which are plainly laid out here, here, and here Those are links, btw They keep being presented and people keep ignoring them

not in the context of hell. When Jesus is speaking His word are authoritative. And when Jesu spoke about hell he said it was an eternal place which the scriptures say. I a know full well there are words and context that say word that speak of very long time,

yet the context is in that location. Jesus was not just a person with an opinion of the eternal place called Hell, he is the authority on the topic because BE defeated death, hell, and the grave. Laugh all you want and too.

 

[Magenta]

not in the context of hell. When Jesus is speaking His word are authoritative. And when Jesu spoke about hell he said it was an eternal place which the scriptures say. I a know full well there are words and context that say word that speak of very long time,

yet the context is in that location. Jesus was not just a person with an opinion of the eternal place called Hell, he is the authority on the topic because BE defeated death, hell, and the grave. Laugh all you want and too.

Why should I laugh when people profane God's Holy Name? Life is in Him alone and the dead know nothing. These things are unequivocally stated in Scripture. We read the same things and come to different conclusions based on line by line and precept by precept. I will not dishonor God by ascribing to Him things He sees as evil.

 

[CS1]

The only place I know of that speaks of people seeking death but not finding it is in Revelation 9:6 and the context is not about hell.



Bodily death is a consequence of original sin in the Garden of Eden. Everyone dies eventually, but not because they sinned. Christ was born sinless as a baby therefore babies are sinless yet babies still die a bodily death. Christ eventually died a bodily death when He was crucified.

The important thing to draw from this is that the punishment for sin is not a bodily death, but rather spiritual death.

1 John 5:12
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.



I don't think "eternal punishment" is a literal place, as in a geographical location, that someone can travel to or be placed in. Hell is a place, but Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't say anywhere that anyone is tormented forever. I believe the only eternal punishment is death.




A judgment can be eternal if it is not subject to ever change, but the judgement is not the same thing as the sentence. A judgment can still exist long after someone has been sentenced to death, but someone can't exist after they're punished with death.

Really I think we are just reading the Bible entirely different. I still don't think eternal conscious torment is in the Bible or it would just plainly say so.

that is your opinion but that is not what Jesus said.
Rev 20
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,( how did the dead stand?) and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works,(how are the dead judged) by the things which were written in the books.

13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.(a whole lot of dead people) And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


IF you read the context the place called the Lake of FIRE is what? Oh, and ETERNAL Place when you go there as verse 10 says.

This is not just any Book I might remind you it is not just any Revelation. This is the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. and all the Gospel where Christ is speaking tell us Hell is an eternal place with torment forever and ever as The final book says.

I need not prove anything I just accept what Jesus said when HE is speaking as the Supreme Authority when HE is speaking.

 

[Runningman]

I need not prove anything I just accept what Jesus said when HE is speaking as the Supreme Authority when HE is speaking.

Ditto.

 

[CS1]

Ditto.

how profund LOL

 

[1ofthem]

Pease excuse me for editing your post to just these points, as they are what I wish to address/focus on. I can certainly appreciate that you are open minded enough to re-examine your beliefs and maybe even assumptions, particularly since you are doing it line by line and precept by precept which is a Biblically prescribed manner

I have bolded a couple of statements you made above and in the spirit of being consistent I would like to see where this first one is stated in Scripture. Likewise for the second statement I bolded above. The fact is the dead know nothing (explicitly stated in Scripture), so saying the second death is like the first and the consciousness man is retained actually contradicts what Scripture explicitly states.

Here is the bolded point:

If 2nd death follows along the same lines of the first death then the consciousness of man will still exist, but separated from God forever... eternal damnation and punishment. They will have no rest day or night because Jesus is our only rest and they rejected him. So they will live on forever with the knowledge of this.

The 1st Death, as recorded in scripture was "spiritual death". Gen. 2:17
“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

God gave the commandment and when Adam sinned his "spirit" died that day. His body and soul was still in existence but his "spirit" died (separated from God because of sin) that same day. The body and soul still existed but were separated from God.

As mentioned in my previous post, Physical Death is only the decaying of the body. The soul is still in existence and awaiting judgment. The spirit goes back to God. Physical death is not the 1st or 2nd death this is only one of the results of the 1st death.

Jesus died to defeat/destroy the first death for any that will believe in HIM. Faith in Jesus causes regeneration in which the spirit is born again and comes back to life. It is Born again.

If the spirit is born again before death...it will have no part in the 2nd death (separation from God forever) in the Lake of Fire.

If the spirit is not born again prior to death...it will die again 2nd death, eternally separated from God forever in the Lake of Fire.

 

[JohnDB]

Why should I laugh when people profane God's Holy Name? Life is in Him alone and the dead know nothing. These things are unequivocally stated in Scripture. We read the same things and come to different conclusions based on line by line and precept by precept. I will not dishonor God by ascribing to Him things He sees as evil.

WOW....
Didn't know that you had it in ya!

Of course Hebrew and Aramaic are highly metaphoric languages. Not always are the metaphors translated out but left intact and explicit.

The number 1,000 (or is it 10,000?) is actually synonymous with "forever" only a tiny "jot" is usually the difference...aka a drop of ink and an overzealous transcriber makes all the difference.

So trying to see a metaphor for when there is not one or not seeing a metaphor when there is one... well it's going to be very very difficult for anyone but someone who actually lived it. And even then it's not going to work.
The Sadducees actually would know...but they were such arrogant jerks that they weren't going to tell anyone and when the Temple burned in 70AD they, and the written records that could have explained things definitively were lost.
BUT
Wescott (as in Wescott and Hort) was a ANE extra-biblical writing scholar. His work on Hebrews and Jude are without equal. He knew all Sifre, midrash, and Talmud. But on this subject he was rather silent as he was already considered to be a heretic for going against the establishment with his scholarship.
Just like you are being branded.
(Not that I disagree with you or are accusing you of such)

But I will remind you...
God places veils and removes ears that hear. Does it intentionally too. He also hardens hearts after when people harden their own hearts. God doesn't heal the healthy but only those who need healing.
I need his healing. No doubt about that. I'm sick...I've needed/longed for his final healing that comes as a reward...
Not everyone feels the same. They are all as uncountable as
Stars of the sky
Or
Sand of the shore.

Which one of the two do you want to be?

 

[PaulChristensen]

How many times must one enter the narrow gate? Well, I entered once. I was born again, and sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

God promised that that He would never forsake me, that Jesus would allow no one to snatch me out of His hand.

John 10:27-28
Scripture also states that those who leave, never belonged in the first place.

1 John 2:19

So, if you, like Demas, who was also born again of the Spirit of God, decide to drop out and go back to the world through the deceitfulness of sin, wouldn't you find that you will be shut out when the day of judgment comes. Isn't that what Hebrews says about those who have tasted the good things of God, turning away and treading the blood of Christ underfoot? Demas was as born again as you and me, otherwise Paul would not have had him on his ministry team, but for some reason he was drawn away from Christ by the world's attractions. So, if Demas might not make it because he gave up the race, wouldn't you be shut out of the kingdom of God if you gave up the race as well?

Problem is that we tend to ignore the bits of the Bible that are not attractive to us, such as, "Those who persevere to the end will be saved". So, if we don't persevere to the end, we might not end up being saved.

 

[Magenta]

So, if you, like Demas, who was also born again of the Spirit of God, decide to drop out and go back to the world through the deceitfulness of sin, wouldn't you find that you will be shut out when the day of judgment comes. Isn't that what Hebrews says about those who have tasted the good things of God, turning away and treading the blood of Christ underfoot? Demas was as born again as you and me, otherwise Paul would not have had him on his ministry team, but for some reason he was drawn away from Christ by the world's attractions. So, if Demas might not make it because he gave up the race, wouldn't you be shut out of the kingdom of God if you gave up the race as well?

Problem is that we tend to ignore the bits of the Bible that are not attractive to us, such as, "Those who persevere to the end will be saved". So, if we don't persevere to the end, we might not end up being saved.

1 John 5:11-13

1 John 2:19

 

[Hakawaka]

that is your opinion but that is not what Jesus said.
Rev 20
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,( how did the dead stand?) and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works,(how are the dead judged) by the things which were written in the books.

13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.(a whole lot of dead people) And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


IF you read the context the place called the Lake of FIRE is what? Oh, and ETERNAL Place when you go there as verse 10 says.

This is not just any Book I might remind you it is not just any Revelation. This is the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. and all the Gospel where Christ is speaking tell us Hell is an eternal place with torment forever and ever as The final book says.

I need not prove anything I just accept what Jesus said when HE is speaking as the Supreme Authority when HE is speaking.

Hey good point! I will add this to my list of verses I will use to defend the doctrine set out in the bible.

You make an excellet point in Verse 12 where you add "How did the dead stand?" indeed. That doesnt work in the annihilationist version of the word they like to put forth!

 

[CS1]

Hey good point! I will add this to my list of verses I will use to defend the doctrine set out in the bible.

You make an excellet point in Verse 12 where you add "How did the dead stand?" indeed. That doesn't work in the annihilationist version of the word they like to put forth!

Pray and read for yourself I could be wrong Jesus is never wrong

 

[ewq1938]

Hey good point! I will add this to my list of verses I will use to defend the doctrine set out in the bible.

You make an excellet point in Verse 12 where you add "How did the dead stand?" indeed.

The unsaved dead are physically resurrected to be judged so they can stand quite easily.

 

[tourist]

how profund LOL

Ditto.

 

[Omegatime]

I believe Hades and Sheol is a temporary place for all the dead, both righteous and unrighteous. Both Sheol and Hades has the same meaning but one comes from the Hebrew and the other from the Greek. Jacob ( Israel), when he found out his son Joseph was dead he said: I shall go down to Sheol morning for my son. Many bibles replaced the word Sheol for the word grave. Now Jacob had no expectation to be buried with his son in a grave as he was told his son was torn to pieces by wild animals. One needs to do a real study on these two words. Problems even go deeper than the few words I have written. Hades contain both a place of torment and Paradise.

 

[brighthouse98]

Sakia, ok, without scripture,Let us just go with common sense. Everything created also has a place. Cup has a place on a saucer for example. In THE PLACE, meaning an ever ending,never changing resting place, lies the head of the place,and he being Jesus or the devil have one thing in common,both will never change there place. Neither will those who place themselves with either! Ans will endure forever there resting place. How's that?? lol

 

[Duckybill]

I read this somewhere: "Belief in the eternal Hell fire is not required for residency therein."

 

[BibleStudent60]

God prescribes death for willful non-compliance. Death is the opposite of life. Torture is NOT the opposite of life as the person has to still be "alive" to feel torture. There are definitely logical disconnects with the hellfire doctrine.

 

[Duckybill]

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Couldn't be much clearer.

 

[ewq1938]

I read this somewhere: "Belief in the eternal Hell fire is not required for residency therein."

"Belief in the Annihilation fire is not required for destruction therein."