Why have we quit standing up for whats right?

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superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
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#61
1) I was one in the past.
2) I know Christians.
3) You don't have to be a Christian to know the facts.
You say you were a Christian in the past. Are you sure you were a Christian? I am only asking out of curiosity because there are many in CC that claim that once you are in the body of Christ, that you can never be lost. Why did you deny Christ?
 
Oct 17, 2009
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#62
Sodum and Gomorrah is a nice little story about Gays and God>
Uh, no. In fact, the only sort of sex hinted at in the Sodom and Gomorrah story is when Lot offers to let the men rape his daughters. The word 'know' is used in a completely literal sense in that verse--the villagers of Sodom wanted to know who the heck these strange angel-men were, presumably because they didn't like outsiders. The wicked thing that Lot begged them not to do was being unkind to his guests. To read it as an inexplicable desire to rape strangers goes against common sense.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
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#63
Uh, no. In fact, the only sort of sex hinted at in the Sodom and Gomorrah story is when Lot offers to let the men rape his daughters. The word 'know' is used in a completely literal sense in that verse--the villagers of Sodom wanted to know who the heck these strange angel-men were, presumably because they didn't like outsiders. The wicked thing that Lot begged them not to do was being unkind to his guests. To read it as an inexplicable desire to rape strangers goes against common sense.
Your interpretation goes against all common sense. If the villagers had no evil intentions, there would have been no reason for Lot to not introduce them.

The Hebrew verb (yada', to know) is used in the same sense as Gen. 4:1, and clearly means to have sex with. That this is indeed the meaning is clear from Lot's warning that they not do so wickedly, and his willingness to let them have his daughters instead, (for sex).

There are bible passages where translations can be debated.

And then there is this one, where you really have to work hard to twist, (or spin), to come up with an alternate meaning from what is clear from the context.
 
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oopsies

Guest
#64
Uh, no. In fact, the only sort of sex hinted at in the Sodom and Gomorrah story is when Lot offers to let the men rape his daughters. The word 'know' is used in a completely literal sense in that verse--the villagers of Sodom wanted to know who the heck these strange angel-men were, presumably because they didn't like outsiders. The wicked thing that Lot begged them not to do was being unkind to his guests. To read it as an inexplicable desire to rape strangers goes against common sense.
Sorry, you are misinterpreting the word "know." It is far more proper to interpret it with a Bible dictionary or encyclopedia. Also, to fully understand a word, a verse, or a passage, you should have in hand at least 7 different Bible translations because our Bibles come from at least 7 different original manuscripts - not just one single scroll and each translation team will undoubtedly have their own interpretation of certain words and phrases.

NIV: 3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

KJV: 4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.



NASB: 5and they called to Lot and said to him, "(E)Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."



MSG: 4-5 Before they went to bed men from all over the city of Sodom, young and old, descended on the house from all sides and boxed them in. They yelled to Lot, "Where are the men who are staying with you for the night? Bring them out so we can have our sport with them!"


NKJV: 4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”



NLT: 3 But Lot insisted, so at last they went home with him. Lot prepared a feast for them, complete with fresh bread made without yeast, and they ate. 4 But before they retired for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. 5 They shouted to Lot, “Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!”


NCV: 4 Before bedtime, men both young and old and from every part of Sodom surrounded Lot's house.5 They called to Lot, "Where are the two men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sexual relations with them."
With 7 different readings, you now have a better translation of the word "know" that was used in this particular passage. Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed only because of the sex stuff - there were other things. These two cities were prominent areas of trade and commerce in ancient times. The people there were corrupt (i.e. as in corrupt government and society), they beat/killed the poor, the young, the children, their pagan temple rituals involved the murder of children for fertility rites, to Molech, temple prostitution, etc. It was a culmination of many things - homosexuality being just one item out of a list of many. Whoever said that it's a gross overstatement that the destruction of Sodom is only about God and gays is correct to an extent simply because there were so many other terrible things that they did - some worse than homosexuality.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#65
You say you were a Christian in the past. Are you sure you were a Christian? I am only asking out of curiosity because there are many in CC that claim that once you are in the body of Christ, that you can never be lost. Why did you deny Christ?
I didn't deny Yeshua, I denied the religion built around him by Paul that I believe is wrong.
 
Oct 17, 2009
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#66
Your interpretation goes against all common sense. If the villagers had no evil intentions, there would have been no reason for Lot to not introduce them.

The Hebrew verb (yada', to know) is used in the same sense as Gen. 4:1, and clearly means to have sex with. That this is indeed the meaning is clear from Lot's warning that they not do so wickedly, and his willingness to let them have his daughters instead, (for sex).
That explanation is what makes no sense. How is them raping Lot's daughters any less immoral than raping the angels? The only way this passage makes sense is in the context of the ancient societies, in which strangers were considered under the protection of God (or, in pagan cultures, the local gods). The strangers wished to know, (IE, interrogate, and possibly murder) the angels when they were supposed to be under Lot's protection. And as abhorrent as it is to us, in that culture, a father was legally allowed to 'give' his daughters as a bargaining tool, which Lot attempted.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
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#67
I didn't deny Yeshua, I denied the religion built around him by Paul that I believe is wrong.
So you don't believe in the conversion of Paul? In other words, you don't believe that Jesus appeared to Paul, and selected him as an apostle to the Gentiles?
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#68
So you don't believe in the conversion of Paul? In other words, you don't believe that Jesus appeared to Paul, and selected him as an apostle to the Gentiles?
I didn't say that. I've yet to form an opinion on that.

I do not believe Christianity is the correct path, however. That, in my opinion, is Judaism.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#69
That explanation is what makes no sense. How is them raping Lot's daughters any less immoral than raping the angels? The only way this passage makes sense is in the context of the ancient societies, in which strangers were considered under the protection of God (or, in pagan cultures, the local gods). The strangers wished to know, (IE, interrogate, and possibly murder) the angels when they were supposed to be under Lot's protection. And as abhorrent as it is to us, in that culture, a father was legally allowed to 'give' his daughters as a bargaining tool, which Lot attempted.
In Genesis 19: 5 the term "knowing" is translated as "having sex with" in the following translations:

NIV, CJB, GWD, GNT, HNV, CSB, NIRV, NKJ, NLT, TNIV, WEB,

Do you know something that the biblical scholars who translated these versions of the bible didn't know?

Furthermore, in all of the versions, like KJV, that use "knowing", it is understood by most bible scholars and students that this is a euphemism for the sexual act in many languages, deriving from the biblical Hebrew usage. You'll notice above that the New King James version improves on the KJV translation by changing "knowing" to "having sex with".

I think I'll go with the biblical scholars on this one.
 
Oct 17, 2009
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#70
I think I'll go with the biblical scholars on this one.
The Biblical scholars don't all agree, you know. From Wikipedia:

Those who favor the non-sexual interpretation argue against a denotation of sexual behavior in this context, noting that while the Hebrew word for know appears over 900 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, only approximately 1% (13-14 times[2][13]) of those references is it clearly used as a euphemism for realizing sexual intimacy.[14] Instead, those who hold to this interpretation usually see the demand to know as demanding the right to interrogate the strangers.[15]




 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
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#71
The Biblical scholars don't all agree, you know. From Wikipedia:

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Wikipedia. Ah yes, thats where I want to go to get information about biblical translations.

That answers my question about whether you knew something the translators didn't. They probably never considered Wikipedia!!
 
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Elijah3

Guest
#72
jesus, why don't you be that voice. Give it a try. God be with you.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#73
Your interpretation goes against all common sense. If the villagers had no evil intentions, there would have been no reason for Lot to not introduce them.

The Hebrew verb (yada', to know) is used in the same sense as Gen. 4:1, and clearly means to have sex with. That this is indeed the meaning is clear from Lot's warning that they not do so wickedly, and his willingness to let them have his daughters instead, (for sex).

There are bible passages where translations can be debated.

And then there is this one, where you really have to work hard to twist, (or spin), to come up with an alternate meaning from what is clear from the context.
I find it interesting that even after they were struck blind by the angels, the men of Sodom continued to try to get to them.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#74
In Genesis 19: 5 the term "knowing" is translated as "having sex with" in the following translations:

NIV, CJB, GWD, GNT, HNV, CSB, NIRV, NKJ, NLT, TNIV, WEB,

Do you know something that the biblical scholars who translated these versions of the bible didn't know?

Furthermore, in all of the versions, like KJV, that use "knowing", it is understood by most bible scholars and students that this is a euphemism for the sexual act in many languages, deriving from the biblical Hebrew usage. You'll notice above that the New King James version improves on the KJV translation by changing "knowing" to "having sex with".

I think I'll go with the biblical scholars on this one.
The same expression is used of Joseph and Mary, that Joseph took her as his wife, but did not "know" her....
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#75
That explanation is what makes no sense. How is them raping Lot's daughters any less immoral than raping the angels? The only way this passage makes sense is in the context of the ancient societies, in which strangers were considered under the protection of God (or, in pagan cultures, the local gods). The strangers wished to know, (IE, interrogate, and possibly murder) the angels when they were supposed to be under Lot's protection. And as abhorrent as it is to us, in that culture, a father was legally allowed to 'give' his daughters as a bargaining tool, which Lot attempted.
The offering of the daughters was intended to shock them into realizing what they were doing. Look at the story of the priest and the Danites.
 
Oct 17, 2009
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#76
The same expression is used of Joseph and Mary, that Joseph took her as his wife, but did not "know" her....

Not sure that's relevant, since the New Testament was written in Koine, not Hebrew.
Different words, different connotations.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#77
Not sure that's relevant, since the New Testament was written in Koine, not Hebrew. Different words, different connotations.
Just a common euphemism that transcends cultural boundaries...
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#78
I didn't say that. I've yet to form an opinion on that.

I do not believe Christianity is the correct path, however. That, in my opinion, is Judaism.
So where does Jesus fit in? You said you do not deny him. Who do you think He is?
 
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oopsies

Guest
#79
I didn't say that. I've yet to form an opinion on that.

I do not believe Christianity is the correct path, however. That, in my opinion, is Judaism.
The Bible is God-breathed. If you are a true Christian, then what Paul says/built up was in fact what God wanted done and what the Holy Spirit divinely inspired Paul to write and to do.

Honestly, based on your 3 points in your response to me, I felt that you were not a true Christian. If you were, you wouldn't respond in such a manner. You basically said to me "I know what I'm talking about" with an underlying tone of insult because I questioned you. If you're a Christian, you wouldn't feel that way - your relationship with God has nothing to do with another person.

What I believe is really going on is that there is a confusion of the definition of "Christian." For you, a Christian does not necessarily mean one who believes in Jesus Christ and follows His teachings. But even Webster's lists that as a definition for one to be a Christian (and we are using a secular, non-biblical dictionary).
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#80
So where does Jesus fit in? You said you do not deny him. Who do you think He is?
I believe he is the messiah, the Deliverer, sent by G-d to serve as the last and perfect sacrifice for the atonement of sins.