Womb Water, Huh?

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Scripture couldn't be any clearer as to what Jesus meant by water and Spirit. Both water and Spirit are documented as essential in all detailed accounts of conversion. (Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7)
If Jesus was talking about baptism, why didn't he mention baptism?

We use the word "baptism" to indicate rebirth, portraying the baptized individual as having "died" and "reborn" to new life. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the only person to speak of Baptism in that way was Paul, in Romans chapter 6. When Jesus wanted to speak about dying and rebirth, he used the cross as a metaphor instead. He talked about taking up our cross and following him. He talked about dying to our old life and self-sacrifice.

The passages that associate baptism with conversion are not focused on rebirth; they are focused on discipleship. In that context, baptism is an agreement to follow the teacher who baptized them. {In modern times it would be like registering for college.} The disciple pledges his time and study to the teachings of the baptizer, in this case, Jesus Christ. Those who were baptized were already converted when they agreed to become one of Jesus' disciples.
 
No—“born of water” never refers to the Law. In Scripture, water can symbolize cleansing, renewal, childbirth, or prophetic restoration, but it is never used as a metaphor for the Mosaic Law.

The literal meaning of born of water is about the Law being written in the heart. That is what the Glorified Body is about. It is a permanent change.

Romans 2:15 - Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Hebrews 8:10 - For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

Hebrews 10:16 - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

Do you know what 'writing in the heart' even means?
 
Jesus said it.
Consider, John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Jesus is God. Unless God calls us,we cannot come to and drink of the living water that is Christ Jesus.

John 4:14"Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 7 Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink."
Verse 38
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

John 3:18"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Note, Jesus does not say anything about liquid water emersion being mandatory for Salvation.

The thief on the cross was not water baptized. But he was Saved through his faith in Christ.
 
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No—“born of water” never refers to the Law. In Scripture, water can symbolize cleansing, renewal, childbirth, or prophetic restoration, but it is never used as a metaphor for the Mosaic Law.
I gave detailed proof of why it is...
Your gratuitous statements are worthless and based entirely on "feelings"....maybe.
 
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Mark 16:16 is not in the better manuscripts and I doubt you handle asps or drink poison or your faith would be dead.
Please, lets not go there. Mark 16:16 is in all of our bibles.

Inquisitor is lurking and he will smell the "you cannot trust the gospels" blood in the water.
 
Note, Jesus does not say anything about liquid water emersion being mandatory for Salvation.
The Bible has many verses about obedience being part of salvation but no verses that say salvation by faith alone. Not one.

Jesus never said it nor did any of the apostles.

But Jesus did clearly say that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved".
The thief on the cross was not water baptized. But he was Saved through his faith in Christ.
The thief on the cross is not the gospel nor do we even know if he was baptized for the remission of sins or not.
 
The Bible has many verses about obedience being part of salvation but no verses that say salvation by faith alone. Not one.

Jesus never said it nor did any of the apostles.
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31


Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Galatians 2:16 "Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."

Romans 4:5"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."
But Jesus did clearly say that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved".

The thief on the cross is not the gospel nor do we even know if he was baptized for the remission of sins or not.
I don't believe we need to know those things. The chief believed in Jesus. And Jesus Saved him.
Luke 23

Acts 10:34
"To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The thief repented and believed Jesus was a king with a spiritual kingdom.
 
@Lifted_by_the_word . I absolutely loved your post. You may be the first person I have seen that understands what the Day of Atonement is all about. Seed/DNA/Word. You got it.

I just wanted to give my opinion on this quote:



You of all people may understand what 'waters' is actually symbolic of. Look up the word 'mayim'.


Look at definition number three. It is euphemism for male seed. That is what 'born of water' means in John 3:5.

In other words, we all must be born of Abraham's Seed in addition to the Spirit.

Look deeper at the clues:



Do you see it? The 'waters' is the Voice, Speech, Word of God.



You are so close!

Look:



Jesus came by the Seed of God. By the Word of God. He came by Water/Mayim definition #3. Get it?

The 'Waters', i.e., the Word was made flesh:



Keep exegeting how waters and word are associated with each other:



Rain and snow as the Word of God:



Yes, it's DNA:



You pretty much solved the riddle here...



Waters = Male Seed/DNA
Blood = Female Seed/DNA

Vine = DNA in the Blood...



It's all there.



Yep. And...

Serpent on a Pole = RNA.

The Crucifix = Chromosome.

The world has yet to wake up to all of this.

It's really mind blowing when God gives you these revelations,and how woven together his word can be.Discernment is a issue in the church.We need to also discern the word to search out a matter.It's not given to you on a platter.
 
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Consider, John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Jesus is God. Unless God calls us,we cannot come to and drink of the living water that is Christ Jesus.

John 4:14"Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 7 Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink."
Verse 38
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

John 3:18"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Note, Jesus does not say anything about liquid water emersion being mandatory for Salvation.

The thief on the cross was not water baptized. But he was Saved through his faith in Christ.

And God does call us and everyone per 1Tim. 2:3-4 & John 4:14, 7:38, 12:32,
but not everyone cooperates with His call (John 3:18).

And yes, it is SB that saved, not WB, which is merely an outward work manifesting love for Christ,
comparable to the rite of PC that OT Jewish believers performed to show faith in God.
 
If Jesus was talking about baptism, why didn't he mention baptism?
Yes, Jesus is clearly referring to baptism in water. In this saying, as in others, he is using a figure of speech known as a metonymy, as I already noted upthread (post #38).

Other examples:

“This cup is the new covenant in my blood” (Luke 22:20) He is not telling the Twelve to break the cup into pieces and swallow them. He is telling them to drink the wine that is in the cup.

“I did not come to bring peace, but a sword” (Matt 10:34). Not a sword made of steel. Jesus means he will be the cause of discord, conflict, quarreling, fighting.
 
Keep going with your exegesis.

Do you really want to understand 'waters'? Listen to the Word of God:



Why is 'waters' synonymous with 'peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues'???

It's not amniotic fluid!

Mayim... definition #3 male seed. There is Abraham's Seed, then there is the other...

John 3:5-6 obviously refers to physical birth and spiritual rebirth.
Don't overthink the obvious and become oblivious!
 
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IOW, you do NOT agree with Scripture teaching that faith in Christ is God's condition for salvation,
including Matt. 3:11, 4:17, 7:7, 16:15-16, John 3:16, 16:13, Acts 16:31, Gal. 5:6, Phil. 3:1-9, Rom. 3:21-5:10, 1Cor. 1:21, etc.

That's on you, no matter how many baths you take.
Stop focusing on the flesh/physical!
I do agree that faith is essential. In fact, nothing in the Christian life begins apart from faith. But biblical faith is more than mental agreement—it moves a person to accept what God's Word reveals and to obey what God commands.

Paul describes the Christian life as "from faith to faith" (Rom. 1:17), one step of faith after another. He also says, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel" (Rom. 10:16), showing that responding to the gospel involves obedience as well as belief.

This is why Paul repeatedly speaks of "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; 16:26).
Genuine faith produces obedience because it trusts God's Word enough to act upon it.

The writer of Hebrews makes the same point, saying that Jesus "became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9, KJV). That does not teach salvation by human merit; rather, it teaches that saving faith responds to Christ by obeying what He has commanded.

James also addresses this: "faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17), and "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). James is not saying we earn salvation by works. He is saying that living faith is demonstrated by obedience. A faith that never acts is not the kind of faith Scripture commends.

So I fully agree that faith is crucial. My point is simply that the New Testament never separates faith from obedience. Faith is the root, and obedience is its fruit. We do not obey to earn God's grace; we obey because we believe His Word. Whether it is repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, or receiving the Holy Ghost, each step is an act of faith in response to what God has revealed.
 
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If Jesus was talking about baptism, why didn't he mention baptism?

We use the word "baptism" to indicate rebirth, portraying the baptized individual as having "died" and "reborn" to new life. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the only person to speak of Baptism in that way was Paul, in Romans chapter 6. When Jesus wanted to speak about dying and rebirth, he used the cross as a metaphor instead. He talked about taking up our cross and following him. He talked about dying to our old life and self-sacrifice.

The passages that associate baptism with conversion are not focused on rebirth; they are focused on discipleship. In that context, baptism is an agreement to follow the teacher who baptized them. {In modern times it would be like registering for college.} The disciple pledges his time and study to the teachings of the baptizer, in this case, Jesus Christ. Those who were baptized were already converted when they agreed to become one of Jesus' disciples.
We are to approach Scripture the way Proverbs tells us to approach wisdom—by seeking it "as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures" (Prov. 2:4). Truth is often discovered by comparing Scripture with Scripture rather than expecting every passage to explain every detail.

Jesus frequently taught in ways that required His hearers to search deeper. For example, He never plainly said, "I am God," yet He revealed His deity throughout His words and actions. Likewise, He did not always explain every implication of the new birth in a single conversation.

In John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that a man must be "born of water and of the Spirit." He did not stop to define those terms because the fuller revelation would come after His death, burial, resurrection, and the giving of the Holy Ghost. The apostles later explained and applied Jesus' teaching. On the Day of Pentecost, when people asked, "What shall we do?" Peter answered, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). That answer corresponds remarkably with Jesus' words about being born of water and Spirit.

There is another observation in John 3 that is often overlooked. Immediately after Jesus speaks of being "born of water and of the Spirit," the remainder of the chapter turns to the subject of water baptism. John 3:22 says, "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized." Then John 3:23 adds that John also "was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there." Rather than leaving the subject of water behind, the chapter immediately records both Jesus' disciples and John administering water baptism. While the passage does not explicitly state that "water" in verse 5 means baptism, the immediate context certainly makes water baptism a significant part of the discussion rather than an unrelated topic.

You mentioned that Paul alone connects baptism with death and resurrection in Romans 6. Paul certainly develops that truth there, but he is not inventing a new doctrine. He is explaining what the apostles had already been practicing from the beginning. Peter was commanding water baptism decades (AD 30-33) before Romans was written (AD 56-58), and people were already being baptized into Christ throughout Acts.

It is also worth noting that Jesus did speak directly about baptism in connection with salvation. In Mark 16:16 He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Before His ascension He commanded the apostles to baptize (Matthew 28:19). Those same apostles consistently obeyed that command in Acts by water baptizing believers in the name of Jesus Christ.

The comparison of baptism to "registering for college" does not fit the biblical evidence. Throughout Acts, baptism is consistently connected with the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), washing away sins (Acts 22:16), being buried with Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27), and the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21). Those descriptions go far beyond a public declaration of discipleship.

Finally, the New Testament does not separate conversion from baptism the way many do today. When people believed the gospel, they repented, were water baptized in the name of Jesus, and received the Holy Ghost. The apostles did not treat baptism as an optional symbol for those who were already converted. They treated it as part of the obedient response of faith to the gospel Christ commanded them to preach.

So the issue is not whether Jesus used the exact word "baptism" every time He spoke about the new birth. The issue is whether the apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, understood and fulfilled His teaching. When Scripture is searched as a whole rather than isolated into individual verses, the consistent testimony of the New Testament is that the new birth Jesus announced in John 3 finds its fulfillment in repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost.
 
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I don't believe we need to know those things. The chief believed in Jesus. And Jesus Saved him.
If we "don't need to know these things" than why are you bringing up the possibility of the thief not being baptized?

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Again, the Bible has many verses about obedience being part of salvation but no verses that say salvation by faith alone. Not one.
Jesus never said it nor did any of the apostles.

The verses you supplied prove my point.

Did you not notice this when you were writing you response?
 
I do agree that faith is essential. In fact, nothing in the Christian life begins apart from faith. But biblical faith is more than mental agreement—it moves a person to accept what God's Word reveals and to obey what God commands.

Paul describes the Christian life as "from faith to faith" (Rom. 1:17), one step of faith after another. He also says, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel" (Rom. 10:16), showing that responding to the gospel involves obedience as well as belief.

This is why Paul repeatedly speaks of "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; 16:26).
Genuine faith produces obedience because it trusts God's Word enough to act upon it.

The writer of Hebrews makes the same point, saying that Jesus "became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9, KJV). That does not teach salvation by human merit; rather, it teaches that saving faith responds to Christ by obeying what He has commanded.

James also addresses this: "faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17), and "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). James is not saying we earn salvation by works. He is saying that living faith is demonstrated by obedience. A faith that never acts is not the kind of faith Scripture commends.

So I fully agree that faith is crucial. My point is simply that the New Testament never separates faith from obedience. Faith is the root, and obedience is its fruit. We do not obey to earn God's grace; we obey because we believe His Word. Whether it is repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, or receiving the Holy Ghost, each step is an act of faith in response to what God has revealed.

Agreement is good. I state what you said this way on The Kerygma thread:

The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or sinners who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime.

A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
 
Agreement is good. I state what you said this way on The Kerygma thread:

The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or sinners who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime.

A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
To clarify, although our understanding differs much, I do fully agree that faith is essential. Faith in Jesus is the starting point. Afterward believers must express their faith in God's message and repent, be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost as well. Only after faith and obedience does the NT rebirth become a reality for believers.
 
To clarify, although our understanding differs much, I do fully agree that faith is essential. Faith in Jesus is the starting point. Afterward believers must express their faith in God's message and repent, be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost as well. Only after faith and obedience does the NT rebirth become a reality for believers.
Belief is commanded. Belief is obedience.

“And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3‬:‭23‬-‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
Belief is obedience.
Belief is faith and obedience which "follows" is works. Understanding the difference was my turning point that resulted in my conversion when I changed my mind and placed my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation several years ago. ✝️

(Acts 3:19; 10:43; 11:17,18; 20:21: 26:18; Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
 
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Instead of trying to say what I've been through is the true way to be a christian, I'll confess that water is the deep meditation for God and His word in life, and the Spirit is the faith and love for all He is.