Womb Water, Huh?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31


Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Galatians 2:16 "Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."

Romans 4:5"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."



I don't believe we need to know those things. The chief believed in Jesus. And Jesus Saved him.
Luke 23

Acts 10:34
"To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The thief repented and believed Jesus was a king with a spiritual kingdom.
Please consider the following points that scripture reveals are true:

Water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is not an OT law, it is a New Testament command (Acts 2:38, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7).

The thief died before the NT command came into effect for all NT believers in Jesus. (Luke 24:47, Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:38)


Also, please pay close attention to what Acts 10:43 actually reveals. It says believers will receive remission of sin through Jesus' name.
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Now notice the command Peter gave them a few verses later that included the name of Jesus (Acts 10:47-48). "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." This is what Peter was taling about in Acts 10:43, we know this because according to Acts 2:38 and 22:16 obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus is when sins are remitted.
 
Belief is commanded. Belief is obedience.

“And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3‬:‭23‬-‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Paul's word: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? Acts 19

The Samaritans believed yet didn't receive the Holy Ghost until days later (Acts 8:12-18).

The Heavenly Father will give the Holy Ghost to those who ask. (Luke 11:13)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Clearly those Jesus spoke to believed in Him.)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these SAYINGS of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these SAYINGS of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
 
To clarify, although our understanding differs much, I do fully agree that faith is essential. Faith in Jesus is the starting point. Afterward believers must express their faith in God's message and repent, be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost as well. Only after faith and obedience does the NT rebirth become a reality for believers.

The only point of disagreement seems to hinge on "afterward".
Paul taught that only what precedes "after" saves, and what follows "precedes" is fruit summarized as love (Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 5:5).
Love (didachaic doctrine about how believers should then behave) is certainly important but is the cart that follows the horse.

Love can be manifested by a variety of fruit/godly works, including being WB and giving alms to poor brethren,
but we should not judge those whose gifts are different from ours.
 
The only point of disagreement seems to hinge on "afterward".
Paul taught that only what precedes "after" saves, and what follows "precedes" is fruit summarized as love (Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 5:5).
Love (didachaic doctrine about how believers should then behave) is certainly important but is the cart that follows the horse.

Love can be manifested by a variety of fruit/godly works, including being WB and giving alms to poor brethren,
but we should not judge those whose gifts are different from ours.
Obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus remits sin, as made possible by Jesus' sacrifice.


Consider the foreshadow of the OT Red Heifer purification as it relates to the NT rebirth:

The New Testament reveals that obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the God-ordained means by which the benefits of Christ's sacrifice are applied for the remission of sins. Jesus' blood alone is the atoning sacrifice, but Scripture teaches that believers receive the promised remission through obedient faith expressed in repentance and baptism in His name (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16).

The Old Testament ceremony of the red heifer provides a remarkable foreshadowing of this truth. After the red heifer was sacrificed outside the camp, its ashes—which represented the completed sacrifice and contained the remains of the blood that had been offered—were kept and mixed with living water to create the "water of separation" (Numbers 19). This water was then sprinkled upon those who had become ceremonially unclean so they could be purified.

Notice the pattern. The sacrifice came first, but the cleansing was not experienced until the water containing the ashes of the sacrifice was applied. The sacrifice and the water worked together in God's appointed means of purification. Without the sacrifice, the water had no cleansing power. Without the application of the water, the benefits of the sacrifice were not received by the unclean person.

This beautifully anticipates the New Testament. Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice provides the only basis for the remission of sins, yet the apostles consistently preached that believers were to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16). In baptism, the believer is not trusting in water itself, but in the efficacy of Christ's atoning blood, which God has appointed to be applied through obedient faith.

The red heifer ceremony demonstrates that God has long used the combination of sacrifice and water as His appointed means of purification. It was never the water alone that cleansed, nor the sacrifice alone apart from God's prescribed application. Likewise, New Testament baptism does not compete with the cross; it is the God-ordained response through which the believer receives the cleansing made possible by Christ's sacrifice. The type in Numbers 19 finds its fulfillment in the New Testament rebirth, where the blood of Christ and water baptism converge according to God's covenant plan for the remission of sins.
 
Obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus remits sin, as made possible by Jesus' sacrifice.


Consider the foreshadow of the OT Red Heifer purification as it relates to the NT rebirth:

The New Testament reveals that obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the God-ordained means by which the benefits of Christ's sacrifice are applied for the remission of sins. Jesus' blood alone is the atoning sacrifice, but Scripture teaches that believers receive the promised remission through obedient faith expressed in repentance and baptism in His name (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16).

The Old Testament ceremony of the red heifer provides a remarkable foreshadowing of this truth. After the red heifer was sacrificed outside the camp, its ashes—which represented the completed sacrifice and contained the remains of the blood that had been offered—were kept and mixed with living water to create the "water of separation" (Numbers 19). This water was then sprinkled upon those who had become ceremonially unclean so they could be purified.

Notice the pattern. The sacrifice came first, but the cleansing was not experienced until the water containing the ashes of the sacrifice was applied. The sacrifice and the water worked together in God's appointed means of purification. Without the sacrifice, the water had no cleansing power. Without the application of the water, the benefits of the sacrifice were not received by the unclean person.

This beautifully anticipates the New Testament. Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice provides the only basis for the remission of sins, yet the apostles consistently preached that believers were to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16). In baptism, the believer is not trusting in water itself, but in the efficacy of Christ's atoning blood, which God has appointed to be applied through obedient faith.

The red heifer ceremony demonstrates that God has long used the combination of sacrifice and water as His appointed means of purification. It was never the water alone that cleansed, nor the sacrifice alone apart from God's prescribed application. Likewise, New Testament baptism does not compete with the cross; it is the God-ordained response through which the believer receives the cleansing made possible by Christ's sacrifice. The type in Numbers 19 finds its fulfillment in the New Testament rebirth, where the blood of Christ and water baptism converge according to God's covenant plan for the remission of sins.

No, at this point we are stuck in disagreement, because I believe the NT teaches faith/SB saves, and anything "afterwards" is just that/the cartload of works, whereas you seem to disagree with your own semantics. Thus, I will place my bet and move on from this discussion rather than play ping-pong, unless you have something to say that will move it forward. Happy trails! :love:
 
Please consider the following points that scripture reveals are true:

Water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is not an OT law, it is a New Testament command (Acts 2:38, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7).

The thief died before the NT command came into effect for all NT believers in Jesus. (Luke 24:47, Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:38)


Also, please pay close attention to what Acts 10:43 actually reveals. It says believers will receive remission of sin through Jesus' name.
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Now notice the command Peter gave them a few verses later that included the name of Jesus (Acts 10:47-48). "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." This is what Peter was taling about in Acts 10:43, we know this because according to Acts 2:38 and 22:16 obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus is when sins are remitted.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

God Bless
 
If we "don't need to know these things" than why are you bringing up the possibility of the thief not being baptized?
Youre not aware "those things," stand separate from the state of the thiefs spiritual currency on his cross.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, the Bible has many verses about obedience being part of salvation but no verses that say salvation by faith alone. Not one.
Jesus never said it nor did any of the apostles
This is not true. Many verses tell us we are saved by faith alone.
Please seek them out as you are unaware of the full Gospel of Jesus.

Works do not Save.



The verses you supplied prove my point.

Did you not notice this when you were writing you response?
To the contrary. The thief on the cross proves we do not need to be Baptized to be Saved.

Jesus and His Disciples Baptized rople. But nowhere does Jesus say one must be Baptized in liquid water so to be Saved.

Jesus is the living water of life. Which is why belief in Him ,due to the Father calling the natural man and his imbuing them with faith,when before their natural mind could not understand the things of God, Saves.

Jesus gives us living water. As he told the woman at the well.
 
No eisegesis; no overthinking; simply go with what it says.
That's my argument.

OK. But just to be clear, what I present is not 'eisegesis'.

I will just post this overview:

Waters as Abraham's Seed.png

Is the LORD not Living Waters?

Jeremiah 17:13 - O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

The Fountain of Living Waters is Abraham's Seed:

Galatians 3:16 - Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Born of Water.
 
OK. But just to be clear, what I present is not 'eisegesis'.

I will just post this overview:

View attachment 291759

Is the LORD not Living Waters?

The Fountain of Living Waters is Abraham's Seed:

Born of Water.

I encourage you to do your research without relying on problematic AI assertions.
It is obvious that Abraham's seed is not cited in John 3:6-7.

The right way to connect Abraham's seed with spiritual rebirth is in terms of Rom. 4.
Believers are united with Christ through SB, not WB.

This sampling from AI throws stuff against the wall to see what sticks.
 
Don't get mad at me because I happen to know the deeper meaning of waters...


View attachment 291760

You folks should know better. Educate yourselves. The Father is a Father because he has children.
Thank you, @Researcher. That one is new to me. It ties neatly with the closely related point mentioned in your previous post with the AI-generated list:

... anyone who is united with Christ through baptism (water) becomes part of Abraham’s spiritual seed.
 
  • Heart
Reactions: Researcher
We are to approach Scripture the way Proverbs tells us to approach wisdom—by seeking it "as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures" (Prov. 2:4). Truth is often discovered by comparing Scripture with Scripture rather than expecting every passage to explain every detail.

Jesus frequently taught in ways that required His hearers to search deeper. For example, He never plainly said, "I am God," yet He revealed His deity throughout His words and actions. Likewise, He did not always explain every implication of the new birth in a single conversation.

In John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that a man must be "born of water and of the Spirit." He did not stop to define those terms because the fuller revelation would come after His death, burial, resurrection, and the giving of the Holy Ghost. The apostles later explained and applied Jesus' teaching. On the Day of Pentecost, when people asked, "What shall we do?" Peter answered, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). That answer corresponds remarkably with Jesus' words about being born of water and Spirit.

There is another observation in John 3 that is often overlooked. Immediately after Jesus speaks of being "born of water and of the Spirit," the remainder of the chapter turns to the subject of water baptism. John 3:22 says, "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized." Then John 3:23 adds that John also "was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there." Rather than leaving the subject of water behind, the chapter immediately records both Jesus' disciples and John administering water baptism. While the passage does not explicitly state that "water" in verse 5 means baptism, the immediate context certainly makes water baptism a significant part of the discussion rather than an unrelated topic.

You mentioned that Paul alone connects baptism with death and resurrection in Romans 6. Paul certainly develops that truth there, but he is not inventing a new doctrine. He is explaining what the apostles had already been practicing from the beginning. Peter was commanding water baptism decades (AD 30-33) before Romans was written (AD 56-58), and people were already being baptized into Christ throughout Acts.

It is also worth noting that Jesus did speak directly about baptism in connection with salvation. In Mark 16:16 He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Before His ascension He commanded the apostles to baptize (Matthew 28:19). Those same apostles consistently obeyed that command in Acts by water baptizing believers in the name of Jesus Christ.

The comparison of baptism to "registering for college" does not fit the biblical evidence. Throughout Acts, baptism is consistently connected with the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), washing away sins (Acts 22:16), being buried with Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27), and the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21). Those descriptions go far beyond a public declaration of discipleship.

Finally, the New Testament does not separate conversion from baptism the way many do today. When people believed the gospel, they repented, were water baptized in the name of Jesus, and received the Holy Ghost. The apostles did not treat baptism as an optional symbol for those who were already converted. They treated it as part of the obedient response of faith to the gospel Christ commanded them to preach.

So the issue is not whether Jesus used the exact word "baptism" every time He spoke about the new birth. The issue is whether the apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, understood and fulfilled His teaching. When Scripture is searched as a whole rather than isolated into individual verses, the consistent testimony of the New Testament is that the new birth Jesus announced in John 3 finds its fulfillment in repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost.
You raise a good point about the immediate context,
 
Yes, Jesus is clearly referring to baptism in water. In this saying, as in others, he is using a figure of speech known as a metonymy, as I already noted upthread (post #38).

Other examples:

“This cup is the new covenant in my blood” (Luke 22:20) He is not telling the Twelve to break the cup into pieces and swallow them. He is telling them to drink the wine that is in the cup.

“I did not come to bring peace, but a sword” (Matt 10:34). Not a sword made of steel. Jesus means he will be the cause of discord, conflict, quarreling, fighting.
Interesting point about metonymy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BartholomewB