Women and Head Covering

[CharishHaroon]

Like your views on this subject of women and head-covering.

"1 Corinthians 11:1-16

"God anticipated that this particular scripture would become a matter for contention, and therefore the apostle Paul says, “But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God” (v. 16). This is the Word of God, and deeply important for the true blessing of all. Paul has stated the truth.

"Let us approach the subject with reverent, humble faith, desiring only that God will make His will clearly known and understood.

"First, we must remember that this book of 1 Corinthians is written “to the church which is at Corinth … with all who in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:2). Therefore what Paul is saying is to be taken to heart by the whole assembly as such. All the assembly will be affected by the obedience or disobedience of any individual in the assembly, so all should be concerned that individuals should bow to the authority of God’s Word.

"The assembly in Corinth is commended for keeping the instructions Paul had given them (v. 2), but there was a matter that needed special attention. He wanted them to understand that “the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (v. 3). This was actually God’s order in creation, though the world ignores it. But if the church of God is to maintain any proper order, it cannot ignore God’s order in creation. Some have imagined that this cannot apply, since “in Christ” “there is neither male nor female” (Gal. 3:28). However, that scripture has to do with the new creation, and is absolutely true, but the assembly now on earth is still connected with the first creation, where God’s creatorial order still applies.

“The head of every man is Christ.” This fact surely gives us no difficulty. But “the head of the woman is the man.” Some object to this clear, decided fact; but it does not imply that man is better than or superior to the woman, but God has given him that place of headship. More than that, “the head of Christ is God.” Certainly Christ, as the eternal Son of God, is fully equal with God, yet as Man He is willing to recognize that God is His head.

"Now, a man praying or prophesying with his head covered dishonors his head. Why? Because his head is Christ: he is therefore dishonoring Christ. Christ should not be covered, but He is the One who is seen. If a man in this case covers his head he is covering up Christ, and in this way he dishonors Him.

"On the other hand, if a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she dishonors her head. That is, she dishonors the man, who is her head. In what way? She is virtually putting him in the place that Christ should have. That is sad dishonor. If she covers her head, she covers the man, which is right."

 

[p_rehbein]

You really need to post ALL the pertinent Scriptures concerning this.........you left out the part that a woman with long hair, the hair serves as her "covering."
As far as you view of Galatians, well, that is your view, and I COMPLETELY DISAGREE.

The Apostle Paul made distinctions between carnal Christians and spiritual Christians, and he tailored his teachings to reflect that. You need to understand the difference, then rethink your comments above.

They are VERY CARNAL/EARTHLY as they only reflect the concepts of life here on this earth, AND NOT spiritual life which is very important because God is a Spirit, and to worship Him we must worship Him in spirit and Truth.

But, feel free to denigrate women, shoot, there are a plethora of folks here who will gladly join with you.

 

[CharishHaroon]

Rehbein, your response is confusing. I didn't mention Galatians anywhere in my op (opening post).

And I did not denigrate women. Why do you think the post on head-covering denigrates women? Kindly explain.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Like your views on this subject of women and head-covering.

"1 Corinthians 11:1-16

"God anticipated that this particular scripture would become a matter for contention, and therefore the apostle Paul says, “But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God” (v. 16). This is the Word of God, and deeply important for the true blessing of all. Paul has stated the truth.

"Let us approach the subject with reverent, humble faith, desiring only that God will make His will clearly known and understood.

"First, we must remember that this book of 1 Corinthians is written “to the church which is at Corinth … with all who in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:2). Therefore what Paul is saying is to be taken to heart by the whole assembly as such. All the assembly will be affected by the obedience or disobedience of any individual in the assembly, so all should be concerned that individuals should bow to the authority of God’s Word.

"The assembly in Corinth is commended for keeping the instructions Paul had given them (v. 2), but there was a matter that needed special attention. He wanted them to understand that “the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (v. 3). This was actually God’s order in creation, though the world ignores it. But if the church of God is to maintain any proper order, it cannot ignore God’s order in creation. Some have imagined that this cannot apply, since “in Christ” “there is neither male nor female” (Gal. 3:28). However, that scripture has to do with the new creation, and is absolutely true, but the assembly now on earth is still connected with the first creation, where God’s creatorial order still applies.

“The head of every man is Christ.” This fact surely gives us no difficulty. But “the head of the woman is the man.” Some object to this clear, decided fact; but it does not imply that man is better than or superior to the woman, but God has given him that place of headship. More than that, “the head of Christ is God.” Certainly Christ, as the eternal Son of God, is fully equal with God, yet as Man He is willing to recognize that God is His head.

"Now, a man praying or prophesying with his head covered dishonors his head. Why? Because his head is Christ: he is therefore dishonoring Christ. Christ should not be covered, but He is the One who is seen. If a man in this case covers his head he is covering up Christ, and in this way he dishonors Him.

"On the other hand, if a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she dishonors her head. That is, she dishonors the man, who is her head. In what way? She is virtually putting him in the place that Christ should have. That is sad dishonor. If she covers her head, she covers the man, which is right."

I think there is a slight misconception here.

The man is the earthly representative of Christ. The woman is the earthly representative of man.

Christ is our covering for sin. So, a man who covers his head dishonors Christ as he is the picture of the Savior himself. Christ needs no covering for sin.

But man needs a covering for sin. And as man's earthly representative or image of man, woman does need a covering for sin. She covers her head to represent man's need for Jesus to cover our sins.

Now, doing these outward signs and works of the law, I don't believe we need to do this. I've never cover my hair. And it's long. Quite long. Fortunately.

1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

I'm curious by the word nature here. If long hair on a man is a shame unto him, it would tie back into the first statement about shameful for a man to cover his head when he represents Christ on earth who needs no covering for sin. To cover his head would be an image of Christ needing to cover his head for sin. Making the outward sign of covering, either covered or long hair, is a dishonor to Christ.

But a woman who can cover her head making the outward appearance of a covering for sin being relieved of that by having long hair as a covering is a much nicer prospect. And if women today are covering their hair in "obedience" to this, what does it gain them? No works or deeds we do are as filthy rags to God. He's given us long glorious hair for a covering.

 

[MattforJesus]

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

The covering is talking about hair that a woman should not cut her hair for if she cuts it even an inch it is the same as if she cuts it short.

And a man should not have long hair.

Which means God wants a distinction between men and women but a lot of people say do not tell us how to wear our hair even though God said it is a shame for a woman to cut her hair, and a shame for a man to have long hair.

Men should have short hair because they are in the image of God.

That means the man Christ Jesus had short hair because He came in the image of God.

And for people who would say what about Samson for he had long hair but Samson was not in the image of God for nobody was in the image of God when Adam and Eve fell until Jesus came and then all those who receive the Spirit.

The image of God is an innocent nature in flesh which they were in the image of God according to the flesh but not the innocent nature until Jesus came.

They portray Jesus with long hair but He would of had short hair.

Who started that the Catholics.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Nazarites were strictly forbidden to cut their hair. It turned out to be a great sign in Sampson, once betrayed by a woman, when his hair was cut, the spirit departed from him. When it grew back, he had his strength.

Sampson is quite the sign of many things. He's one of the most fascinating judges in the book. I never cease to wonder.

My brief take on the sign of Sampson is that he represented the man Jesus who came in all the power of God, was betrayed and overcome by man to his death. Even Jesus felt forsaken by God at this great time. All part of the plan, but it's my opinion, perhaps correctly, perhaps not, that Sampson was the sign of Jesus to come. And perhaps Jesus did have long hair. I don't know.

 

[SophieT]

it should be noted that in the Corinthian culture of that time, women wore head coverings

1 Corinthians 11:3-16 addresses the issue of women and head coverings. The context of the entire passage of 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 is submission to the God-given order and "chain of command." A "covering" on a woman’s head is used as an illustration of the order, headship, and the authority of God. The key verse of this passage is 1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." The implications of this verse are found in the rest of the passage. The order is: God the Father, God the Son, the man or husband, and the woman or wife. The veil or covering on the head of a believing Corinthian wife showed that she was under the authority of her husband, and therefore under submission to God.

Within this passage is also verse 10: "For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels." Why is that important to angels? The relationship of God with men is something that angels watch and learn from (1 Peter 1:12). Therefore, a woman’s submission to God’s delegated authority over her is an example to angels. The holy angels, who are in perfect and total submission to God, expect that we, as followers of Christ, be the same.

This covering not only means a cloth but also can refer to a woman’s hair length. How can we say that? We must take this verse in the context or the setting in which it is presented. "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering" (1 Corinthians 11:14-15). Therefore, in the context of this passage, a woman who is wearing her hair longer marks herself out distinctively as a woman and not a man. The Apostle Paul is saying here that in the Corinthian culture, when a wife’s hair was longer than her husband’s, it showed her submission to his headship. The roles of the male and female are designed by God to portray a profound spiritual lesson, that is of submission to the will and the order of God.

But why is hair an issue in this passage? The apostle Paul is addressing an issue related to the Corinthian culture that was being allowed to disrupt the church. For a woman to have a shaved head was a disgrace (and, in Jewish thinking, a sign of mourning, Deuteronomy 21:12). Her hair was her “glory” (1 Corinthians 11:15). In the Corinthian culture, women normally wore a head covering as a symbol of their submission to their husbands. Paul affirms the rightness of following that cultural mandate—to dispense with the head coverings on women would send the entirely wrong signal to the culture at large. In fact, Paul says that, if a Christian woman refuses her head covering, she might as well shave her hair off, too (verse 6). A woman who refused to wear a covering in that culture was basically saying, “I refuse to submit to God’s order.” Therefore, the apostle Paul is teaching the Corinthians that hair length or the wearing of a “covering” by the woman was an outward indication of a heart attitude of submission to God and to His established authority.

God’s order is that the husband is the head of the wife as God is the head of Christ, but there is no inequality or inferiority implied. God and Christ are equal and united, just as the husband and the wife are one. This is not a passage that teaches the woman is inferior to man or that she should be submissive to every man. It is teaching God’s order and spiritual headship in the marriage relationship. In the Corinthian culture, a woman who covered her head during worship or when she was in public displayed her submission to authority.

In today’s culture, we no longer view a woman’s wearing of a head covering as a sign of submission. In most modern societies, scarves and hats are fashion accessories. A woman has the choice to wear a head covering if she views it as a sign of her submission to the authority of her husband. However, it is a personal choice and not something that should be used to judge spirituality. The real issue here is the heart attitude of obedience to God’s authority and submission to His established order “as to the LORD” (Ephesians 5:22). God is far more concerned with an attitude of submission than an outward display of submission via a head covering. First Timothy 2:9-10, "I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God." source

 

[SophieT]

You really need to post ALL the pertinent Scriptures concerning this.........you left out the part that a woman with long hair, the hair serves as her "covering."

yeah he did leave that out, but the above article I posted, with link, INCLUDES it...so there ya go!

kinda changes the intent of the op IMO

 

[Dino246]

"However, in the Lord..." (v. 11) trumps the passage prior to it. We, both males and females, are free and whole in Christ, not slaves to a primitive culture.

 

[Mem]

But, feel free to denigrate women, shoot, there are a plethora of folks here who will gladly join with you.

Its like a warm fuzzy sweater that never gets old

et al.

In the various contexts concerning problems with women, I think Romans 11 applies on a micro-level also, relative to Spiritual Israel (Zion), by exchanging the terms for men and women folk;

:15 "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? :16 If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches."

:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of Gentiles has come in."

And we all should keep these in mind accordingly;

:18 "do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

:20b "Do not be arrogant but be afraid. :21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either."

IF you don't understand what I mean, it's okay, the veil of Moses will eventually be completely lifted!

 

[CharishHaroon]

Like your views on this subject of women and head-covering.

"1 Corinthians 11:1-16

"God anticipated that this particular scripture would become a matter for contention, and therefore the apostle Paul says, “But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God” (v. 16). This is the Word of God, and deeply important for the true blessing of all. Paul has stated the truth.

"Let us approach the subject with reverent, humble faith, desiring only that God will make His will clearly known and understood.

"First, we must remember that this book of 1 Corinthians is written “to the church which is at Corinth … with all who in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:2). Therefore what Paul is saying is to be taken to heart by the whole assembly as such. All the assembly will be affected by the obedience or disobedience of any individual in the assembly, so all should be concerned that individuals should bow to the authority of God’s Word.

"The assembly in Corinth is commended for keeping the instructions Paul had given them (v. 2), but there was a matter that needed special attention. He wanted them to understand that “the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (v. 3). This was actually God’s order in creation, though the world ignores it. But if the church of God is to maintain any proper order, it cannot ignore God’s order in creation. Some have imagined that this cannot apply, since “in Christ” “there is neither male nor female” (Gal. 3:28). However, that scripture has to do with the new creation, and is absolutely true, but the assembly now on earth is still connected with the first creation, where God’s creatorial order still applies.

“The head of every man is Christ.” This fact surely gives us no difficulty. But “the head of the woman is the man.” Some object to this clear, decided fact; but it does not imply that man is better than or superior to the woman, but God has given him that place of headship. More than that, “the head of Christ is God.” Certainly Christ, as the eternal Son of God, is fully equal with God, yet as Man He is willing to recognize that God is His head.

"Now, a man praying or prophesying with his head covered dishonors his head. Why? Because his head is Christ: he is therefore dishonoring Christ. Christ should not be covered, but He is the One who is seen. If a man in this case covers his head he is covering up Christ, and in this way he dishonors Him.

"On the other hand, if a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she dishonors her head. That is, she dishonors the man, who is her head. In what way? She is virtually putting him in the place that Christ should have. That is sad dishonor. If she covers her head, she covers the man, which is right."

I am continuing the above opening post, because people have not fully understood the subject. So here is the 2nd part!

"Some have sought to sidestep this issue by urging that this applies only if a woman prays or prophesies audibly. Can a true believer be serious in taking an attitude like this? A woman’s spiritual exercise of taking part without speaking is just as important as the man’s place in furthering the welfare of the assembly. Those who are behind the scenes, exercised in lowly, genuine affection for Christ, have far more effect in the way a meeting progresses than we generally stop to consider.

"Some also have said that since a woman’s hair is given her as a covering, this is sufficient. However, while it is true that God has given her long hair as a covering, He expects her, on this account, to also cover her own head, thus confirming her agreement with what God has done. Notice also how clearly scripture answers this when we are told, “If a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn” (v. 6). The force of this verse is that, if the woman refuses to cover her head, then she might as well go all the way in refusing also what God has done in giving her long hair. But since it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her then cover her head. Honest simplicity of faith can only bow to the facts as God gives them.

“For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God” (v. 7). As such he represents God, and God is to be, not covered, but prominent. “But woman is the glory of man,” and the glory of man is not to be prominent. For in creation the man was not from the woman, as has been true subsequently, but the woman from the man, as Eve was taken from Adam’s side. She was created for the man, as God said, it was not good for man to be alone. This was God’s order in creation, and therefore the woman should have the sign of authority on her head, that is, that she is under authority to her head, the man. It is added here, “because of the angels.” Angels are vitally interested in the order God has prescribed in His creation, and they care as to whether both man and woman are obedient.

“Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord” (v. 11). There is a unity in God’s creation that is seen to be most beautiful when both man and woman keep their place and function as each is properly fitted to function. For it is to be remembered also that though the woman came from man to begin with, yet since that time man has come through the woman. Both are given a dignity that is peculiar to each, and both should act in the dignity that is becoming to the particular place God has given.

"This being the case, the assembly is told to judge in themselves, is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? How could we ever dare to answer yes to this? And it is added, “Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?” In the world today things are so out of course that people cannot even discern this evident lesson from nature. Now, if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her. This is what God has done, in effect telling the woman that it is her glory to be covered. Her willing consent to this will induce her to also cover her head when prayer or prophesying is exercised.

"May our God and Father give grace that both the believing man and the woman may gladly accept the dignity of the honor with which God has invested each one, and then to function willingly in that place. We surely know that God would love to see this, rather than any contention about a matter that He Himself, in His great love and wisdom, has found necessary to bring to our attention."

****
I hope we will obey the Word of God, instead of trying to side-step it. Whatever is in the New Testament is NOT a cultural issue; women wearing head-coverings is a SPIRITUAL ISSUE.

You are free to reject what has been written. But we will be judged by God for our disobedience in this matter!

 

[p_rehbein]

Some have imagined that this cannot apply, since “in Christ” “there is neither male nor female” (Gal. 3:28). However, that scripture has to do with the new creation, and is absolutely true, but the assembly now on earth is still connected with the first creation, where God’s creatorial order still applies.

Pretty sure this says Gal. 3:28 and the "denigration" comes from your interpretation emboldened. The statement in Galatians is HOW GOD views ALL His children ONCE they accept Jesus as Lord of their lives. IN THIS WORLD, IN THIS TIME! And that is the difference between carnal and spiritual understanding of Scripture......

 

[Dino246]

I am continuing the above opening post, because people have not fully understood the subject. So here is the 2nd part!

"Some have sought to sidestep this issue by urging that this applies only if a woman prays or prophesies audibly. Can a true believer be serious in taking an attitude like this? A woman’s spiritual exercise of taking part without speaking is just as important as the man’s place in furthering the welfare of the assembly. Those who are behind the scenes, exercised in lowly, genuine affection for Christ, have far more effect in the way a meeting progresses than we generally stop to consider.

"Some also have said that since a woman’s hair is given her as a covering, this is sufficient. However, while it is true that God has given her long hair as a covering, He expects her, on this account, to also cover her own head, thus confirming her agreement with what God has done. Notice also how clearly scripture answers this when we are told, “If a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn” (v. 6). The force of this verse is that, if the woman refuses to cover her head, then she might as well go all the way in refusing also what God has done in giving her long hair. But since it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her then cover her head. Honest simplicity of faith can only bow to the facts as God gives them.

“For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God” (v. 7). As such he represents God, and God is to be, not covered, but prominent. “But woman is the glory of man,” and the glory of man is not to be prominent. For in creation the man was not from the woman, as has been true subsequently, but the woman from the man, as Eve was taken from Adam’s side. She was created for the man, as God said, it was not good for man to be alone. This was God’s order in creation, and therefore the woman should have the sign of authority on her head, that is, that she is under authority to her head, the man. It is added here, “because of the angels.” Angels are vitally interested in the order God has prescribed in His creation, and they care as to whether both man and woman are obedient.

“Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord” (v. 11). There is a unity in God’s creation that is seen to be most beautiful when both man and woman keep their place and function as each is properly fitted to function. For it is to be remembered also that though the woman came from man to begin with, yet since that time man has come through the woman. Both are given a dignity that is peculiar to each, and both should act in the dignity that is becoming to the particular place God has given.

"This being the case, the assembly is told to judge in themselves, is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? How could we ever dare to answer yes to this? And it is added, “Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?” In the world today things are so out of course that people cannot even discern this evident lesson from nature. Now, if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her. This is what God has done, in effect telling the woman that it is her glory to be covered. Her willing consent to this will induce her to also cover her head when prayer or prophesying is exercised.

"May our God and Father give grace that both the believing man and the woman may gladly accept the dignity of the honor with which God has invested each one, and then to function willingly in that place. We surely know that God would love to see this, rather than any contention about a matter that He Himself, in His great love and wisdom, has found necessary to bring to our attention."

****
I hope we will obey the Word of God, instead of trying to side-step it. Whatever is in the New Testament is NOT a cultural issue; women wearing head-coverings is a SPIRITUAL ISSUE.

You are free to reject what has been written. But we will be judged by God for our disobedience in this matter!

Are these quotations from your own work? It doesn't appear so, therefore you must cite the source or be rightly accused of plagiarism.

It is ludicrous to to suggest that anyone, male or female, can prophesy without doing so audibly (where writing would be irrelevant). No amount of legalistic enforcement of one person's interpretation can get around that.

As to your statement, Whatever is in the New Testament is NOT a cultural issue", I'd encourage you to think that statement through in light of Acts 16:3, 1 Corinthians 16:17-18, and Colossians 4:17. Go on, tell Archippus!

 

[CharishHaroon]

Pretty sure this says Gal. 3:28 and the "denigration" comes from your interpretation emboldened. The statement in Galatians is HOW GOD views ALL His children ONCE they accept Jesus as Lord of their lives. IN THIS WORLD, IN THIS TIME! And that is the difference between carnal and spiritual understanding of Scripture......

Yes, Galatians is there.

Anyway, now that I have completed the opening post with the 'other half' which begins with 'Some have sought to side-step the issue..." and ends with 'necessary to bring to our attention' ; now that the entire subject is clear with the second half being given, you may respond in a more complete manner.

Thanks!

 

[CharishHaroon]

"Whatever is in the New Testament is NOT a cultural issue", I'd encourage you to think that statement through in light of Acts 16:3, 1 Corinthians 16:17-18, and Colossians 4:17. Go on, tell Archippus!"

What I meant was 'Whatever is in the NT is not to be dismissed as a cultural issue!'. The entire NT is meant for our spiritual edification.

You have quoted 3 texts from the NT. I fail to understand how 1 Cor 16.17-18 and Col 4.17 are cultural issues. A ministry was given to Archippus, and Paul tells him to fulfil it. Every born again child of God is given a ministry by God. For Col 4.17, I have a cross-reference written by me in my Bible: 1 Pet 4:11.

 

[CharishHaroon]

I think there is a slight misconception here...

Now, doing these outward signs and works of the law, I don't believe we need to do this. I've never cover my hair. And it's long. Quite long. Fortunately.

I notice that your profile pic shows a women with a head-covering. Isn't that a contradiction to your statement above?

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I notice that your profile pic shows a women with a head-covering. Isn't that a contradiction to your statement above?

That is Pythia the oracle of Delphi by John Collier. I guess you could call it a contradiction, her being a pagan priestess and all. But, I just like the painting. I'm very artsy. Wouldn't occur to me anybody would take it seriously.

 

[CharishHaroon]

I too love art! Especially paintings like

 

[CharishHaroon]

And like...