women as church leaders and teachers

[jinx]

Queered people get nothing straight.

am I the only one that got this?

 

[Fenner]

I only go to churches where the women silently walk 2 steps behind the men, with their heads covered, and their eyes cast subserviently downward.

Come on, just kidding.
: )

But seriously, after only a couple days on this forum, I'm already exhausted by how much





this topic gets debated.
It's kind of bizarre.

Even with one eye you can tell this subject is brought up a lot.

 

[jinx]

this thread is everywhere

 

[crosspreacher]

crosspreacher - In the garden, Adam was just as deceived as Eve was because he ate also from the apple. Just because Eve took the first bite doesn't make her sin worse than Adam's sin.

Paul said in 1 timothy 2 vs 14: Adam was not deceived but Eve was.
It seem that you refuting the teaching of apostle Paul.

 

[tribesman]

this thread is everywhere

Its that nagging again.

 

[jinx]

you calling me a nag? LOL

 

[Angela53510]

Paul said in 1 timothy 2 vs 14: Adam was not deceived but Eve was.
It seem that you refuting the teaching of apostle Paul.

Actually, Eve did NOT hear the command to not eat of the tree of good and evil through God. In fact, if you read Genesis 2 and 3 carefully, there is no record of Eve being told at all!. So if she was deceived, it was because Adam did not properly communicate the message.

As for Adam, he willingly disobeyed a direct command from God, and it was HIS direct rebellion that had Adam and Eve thrown out of the Garden and brought sin and death into the world.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, [SUP]17 [/SUP]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Gen 2:15-17

Eve was created in the verses following this command, so she did not hear the message directly commanded from God.

In Gen. 3:6, Eve takes and eats, but Adam also takes and eats, which makes him more guilty for directly disobeying God's commands.

"she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."

Then, God speaks to Adam, not Eve about what had been done wrong. And Adam, refused to acknowledge his guilt, and blamed Eve, who at least had the decency to confess honestly what she had done. Sounds like a double sin for Adam to me. He directly disobeys God, the dumps all the blame on Eve, who only heard the command second hand.

"[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

I think some of you men need to read the whole Bible, instead of just cherry picking a few verses to support your misogyny.

 

[danschance]

Angela,

Look at this verse and I think things will be clear.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived,[SUP][i][/SUP]fell into transgression

Here Paul is saying Eve was deceived and sinned. So she must of known it was wrong to eat of the fruit from that tree.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Angela,

Look at this verse and I think things will be clear.

Here Paul is saying Eve was deceived and sinned. So she must of known it was wrong to eat of the fruit from that tree.

I have to say I am surprised that she denied Eve's being deceived.

 

[danschance]

I have to say I am surprised that she denied Eve's being deceived.

If Eve did nor wrong and did not sin, then why did she become aware that she was naked? Why did she also cover herself? Why did God say that her childbirth would be painful? Why was she cast out of the Garden of Eden?

The answer is obvious. Adam and Eve both sinned.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Hi. Here are a couple of questions. You can answer one or all. While I cannot prevent you from doing so, I do ask you keep your answers fairly short..not going on and on and on......

• Would you (or do you currently) attend a church that has women as a pastor, even as an assistant pastor?
• If you think it is not appropriate, can a man effectively lead an adult women's ministry?
• Should a woman lead a class or teach adults in any capacity?
• How high should a women be allowed to go in church leadership?
• How much decision making ability should a woman have in a church?

Thanks!

Paul walked by the rule (law) of love in Christ.

Reasonably then he had to consider the customs of his day in order not to stumble anyone unnecessarily from listening to the more important message of salvation through Christ Jesus.

Paul had clearly begun what he was speaking in chapter 11 about, as you can see by reading the last dozen or so verses of chapter 10, speaking about his concern not to stumble others.

Thus, even when it came to a woman wearing a head covering, Paul said, 1 Corinthians 11:16 "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."

Paul meant that his compelling a woman to wear a head covering was not a rule that was in place in the church but as even nature shows that it is acceptable, and since that is so, then it is a greater sin for a woman not to wear a head covering and so stumble the Jewish babes in Christ who being of the Old Judaism religion believed that for a woman to not wear a head covering was as sinning.

These things are important for us to understand as they communicate the understanding of how we can better apply God's love in our lives.

So then, what did Paul mean when he said, 1 Corinthians 11:10 "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

He meant that the angels would not be happy with watching us go about stumbling others by using our freedom in ways that violate God's love toward any person among us unnecessarily.

Paul had these words of Jesus in mind: Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

Does this same rule of love apply to women being church leaders?

I do know they can be ministers but a minister is not necessarily a leader in the church.

Didn't Jesus say, Matthew 23:8-11 "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Now, that seems to me to be tellng us there are no leaders in the Christ's church but for Christ and God through Christ and the church is to follow God's lead even as Jesus son of man showed us the way.

Hummm, I will have to ponder this more. I still am lacking sleep and I am feeling tiredness nagging at me for now.

Peace and love to you and to all in the name of our Lord.

 

[Zee_Zelot]

Paul said in 1 timothy 2 vs 14: Adam was not deceived but Eve was.
It seem that you refuting the teaching of apostle Paul.

...and have you not read 1 Timothy 1:12-13
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy , because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Now who other than God is to say who is to minister and/or teach.

 

[jinx]

Major Payne says what I'm thinking.
PREACH IT MAJOR!

 

[Dude653]

so now according to what you just said, the BIBLE is not universal, that only certain parts are for us, that we can pick and choose. no thanks.[/QUOIts not about picking and choosing, its about reading looking at the word of God in its context. Paul was specifically adressing the church of corinth in that letter. In corinth, women were dominant because they worshiped a godess. So Paul was instructing them on how to keep the church in order. Let's look back to Genesis when God said to Adam, '' Where is your brother, his blood cries out from the earth'' He wasnt talking to me. I havent murdered anyone

 

[GreenNnice]

so now according to what you just said, the BIBLE is not universal, that only certain parts are for us, that we can pick and choose. no thanks.[/QUOIts not about picking and choosing, its about reading looking at the word of God in its context. Paul was specifically adressing the church of corinth in that letter. In corinth, women were dominant because they worshiped a godess. So Paul was instructing them on how to keep the church in order. Let's look back to Genesis when God said to Adam, '' Where is your brother, his blood cries out from the earth'' He wasnt talking to me. I havent murdered anyone

”I suffer not a woman to teach or have authoritt over a man but to be silent.” 1 Tim. 2:12

1 Tim. 2:13 ”.For Adam was formed first then Eve. ”


Where is the word 'never' in any Scripture addressing women pastors not to EVER teach or have authority (this 'authority' does not mean 'pastor' does it???) over a man????

So many simple questions answered here.

so many of you are condemning women from EVER being pastors of a church, with, YES! men in 'that' church and 'NEVER' is NEVER EVER NEVER mentioned in Scripture for applying to women preaching (is 'having authority really ”preaching??) or teaching over a man. Paul was speaking to unruly, female-domineering women in church of Ephesus , Paul ”suffers not,” or, ”completely opposes” is another way to couch this meaning of Paul's in this message to Timothy AND the women AND MEN of Ephesus who are not doing roles as God making Adam and Eve formed in an order, explaining man FIRST, woman 2nd. Both sinned, but Eve's sin was couched in 'being deceived.'





So, women formed SECOND, so, in a PERFECT WORLD of Paul's in this day and age of 1 st Century A.D. mid-century time, Paul is letting the women AND MEN both know that man is to be first in the teaching and preaching order.

But, to say a woman can NEVER teach/assume a rile of authority in a church over a man is NOT JUST plain wrong to enslave a woman into thinking, Paul NEVER says a woman can ”never teach or have authority” over a man, does he
Does He

 

[Stephen63]

Actually, Eve did NOT hear the command to not eat of the tree of good and evil through God. In fact, if you read Genesis 2 and 3 carefully, there is no record of Eve being told at all!. So if she was deceived, it was because Adam did not properly communicate the message.

As for Adam, he willingly disobeyed a direct command from God, and it was HIS direct rebellion that had Adam and Eve thrown out of the Garden and brought sin and death into the world.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, [SUP]17 [/SUP]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Gen 2:15-17

Eve was created in the verses following this command, so she did not hear the message directly commanded from God.

In Gen. 3:6, Eve takes and eats, but Adam also takes and eats, which makes him more guilty for directly disobeying God's commands.

"she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."

Then, God speaks to Adam, not Eve about what had been done wrong. And Adam, refused to acknowledge his guilt, and blamed Eve, who at least had the decency to confess honestly what she had done. Sounds like a double sin for Adam to me. He directly disobeys God, the dumps all the blame on Eve, who only heard the command second hand.

"[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

I think some of you men need to read the whole Bible, instead of just cherry picking a few verses to support your misogyny.

She knew. She quoted it herself.
Genesis 3:2-5 [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [SUP]3[/SUP]But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [SUP]5 [/SUP]For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

When we read the book of Genesis, we find that everyone involved was judged for their sins. Adam and Eve were both guilty.
Genesis 3:14-19 [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: [SUP]15 [/SUP]And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; [SUP]18 [/SUP]Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; [SUP]19 [/SUP]In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Please be careful and strive for accuracy....... for every word will be held in account on the day of judgment. And to whom much is given, much is required.

 

[GreenNnice]

Hi. Here are a couple of questions. You can answer one or all. While I cannot prevent you from doing so, I do ask you keep your answers fairly short..not going on and on and on......

• Would you (or do you currently) attend a church that has women as a pastor, even as an assistance pastor?
  No.
• If you think it is not appropriate, can a man effectively lead an adult women's ministry? Yes, but, a woman is preferred to teach women, as 1 Tim. says, ch. 3 or 4, think it is
• Should a woman lead a class or teach adults in any capacity?
• How high should a women be allowed to go in church leadership?
• How much decision making ability should a woman have in a church?

Thanks!

Would you (or do you currently) attend a church that has women as a pastor, even as an assistant pastor?
No, but women can and do occassionally give a,message, usually evening services. They do great, too! The Lord leads. If you think it is not appropriate, can a man effectively lead an adult women's ministry?
Should a woman lead a class or teach adults in any capacity?
How high should a women be allowed to go in church leadership? As high as God calls her; she will know, for she WILL be walking in the Spirit, not being led by the law of man, but by God How much decision making ability should a woman have in a church? Whatever the Lord gives her. Men are first in order for leadership roles like teaching, board member positions, deacons, (having authority
) but, guess who is 2nd in line for leadership positions? Adam was formed first. But, then who was formed next in this eve of time by God _The other questions you ask sparklyeyedHis are answered in the containment of my answers already given .

 

[creationist74]

My opinion about that.

Hello SparkleEyes,

this is a difficult question. The church's leader as written in 1st Tim 3 is supposed to be a man who is married. Nevertheless, I think God looks at the ability, not at the gender. There are several meanings about that and I can accept all of them. During WWII, women mostly used to lead churches, as men mainly were at war or arrested in a concentration camp or in prison.

I hope I do not talk to someone who is striking his wife or his daughter. I would stop such discussions immediately, then.

 

[crosspreacher]

Actually, Eve did NOT hear the command to not eat of the tree of good and evil through God. In fact, if you read Genesis 2 and 3 carefully, there is no record of Eve being told at all!. So if she was deceived, it was because Adam did not properly communicate the message.

As for Adam, he willingly disobeyed a direct command from God, and it was HIS direct rebellion that had Adam and Eve thrown out of the Garden and brought sin and death into the world.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, [SUP]17 [/SUP]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Gen 2:15-17

Eve was created in the verses following this command, so she did not hear the message directly commanded from God.

In Gen. 3:6, Eve takes and eats, but Adam also takes and eats, which makes him more guilty for directly disobeying God's commands.

"she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."

Then, God speaks to Adam, not Eve about what had been done wrong. And Adam, refused to acknowledge his guilt, and blamed Eve, who at least had the decency to confess honestly what she had done. Sounds like a double sin for Adam to me. He directly disobeys God, the dumps all the blame on Eve, who only heard the command second hand.

"[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

I think some of you men need to read the whole Bible, instead of just cherry picking a few verses to support your misogyny.

It is obvious that you are not understanding what it is said and that you are trying to make an excuse from these verses for the women to have the right like men to teach.
Yes, Adam ate the from the tree, but he was not deceived by the serpent. He did not blame his wife. He only told the truth what happened. Adam is not a liar. Eve gave the tree to her husband. Whereas Eve was deceived by the serpent.
"She also gave to her husband who was with her, and he ate" ( Gen 3 vs 6 )
By the way, Eve knew well that God forbid them to eat from that tree.( Gen 3 vs 2,3)
Apostle Paul used that verse to prevent the woman to teach. Otherwise, he would not permit also the man to teach.
Have you a greater revelation that Paul?

 

[crosspreacher]

...and have you not read 1 Timothy 1:12-13
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy , because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Now who other than God is to say who is to minister and/or teach.

Yes you are right, God alone have the right to say who is to minister. But He will not contradict Himself.
Galatians 1 vs 11,12:
But I make known to you, brethren, that the Gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man nor I was taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.