Works and Salvation

[biblicalsandy]

 

[biblicalsandy]

Is it because of the word overseerer, that he speaks of himself? Did he come out as saying "Look here, I am the overseerer!" I see that passage as saying he has the care for his brothers and sisters..not that he demands his way!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

When I was an undergrad student, I took a few classes in behavioral psychology at a Catholic university. The requirement for my being able to take those classes was having to take, in addition to them, a "spirituality" class which was, in fact, a Catholic theology class.

We were expected to adhere to Catholic beliefs, which are essentially that the Bible is not literal, the Person of Christ is basically unknowable and a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. My Southern Baptist background, of course, rebelled against such nonsense.

Catholics believe you can lose your salvation, and they think the pope is infallible. Well, zero out of two if a really bad batting average. Even with a walk or sac fly figured into that scenario, at this point in the season your BA drops four points.

The instructor of that theology class, Dr. Sister Such-and-Such, was completely intolerant of opposing viewpoints. Unlike the suggestion of the OP, Catholics do not let Scripture speak for itself. They insist on tradition being held to equal value as Scripture, which of course leads to a continuation of the false narrative of Christ being unknowable, a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

it's all a crock.

 

[Hoffco]

To Valigant, Your sub scription is very general and dangerous. You Don't understand the paradox of the truth; both Grace and law are taught by Jesus and all the Bible. Hoffco

 

[KennethC]

[h=1]James 5[/h][h=3]Rich Oppressors Will Be Judged[/h]5 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
[h=3]Be Patient and Persevering[/h]7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! 10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.
12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into condemnation.
[h=3]Meeting Specific Needs[/h]13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
[h=3]Bring Back the Erring One[/h]19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.



Strongs Greek:5590 psuche(soul)
b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

 

[Hoffco]

I will check the Greek for you. What I remember is the Mood of the Indicative is FACT, and the mood or Mode of the Subjunctive is NOT FACT, but Possibility of becoming true in the future, but presently it is not a sure thing. SO, The imperative is a command. Indicative is fact, the Subjunctive is possible. Hoffco

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will check the Greek for you. What I remember is the Mood of the Indicative is FACT, and the mood or Mode of the Subjunctive is NOT FACT, but Possibility of becoming true in the future, but presently it is not a sure thing. SO, The imperative is a command. Indicative is fact, the Subjunctive is possible. Hoffco

~subjunctive — The mood that normally presents the verbal action as being probable or intentional. The subjunctive can also express verbal action in terms of mere possibility. In Greek, it is the optative mood that points to possibility more than probability.


This concerns "not perishing." which is also in the aorist tense. It is predicative on someone having an active faith in Christ.

Have eternal life is the greek words

echo - to have, to hold in your hand, to posses it is in the present active

What is it that they hold onto or posses?

Eternal - aionion - continuing forever, without end

Life - existence

You can not have in possession something God says will go on without end, and have it possibly end, this would make God a liar

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Acts 20:28-31

28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Key words - "which He purchased with His own blood" . . . Is that purchase binding? or will the purchase be returned? From your highlighted words - He might have purchased us when we believed . . . .

John 3:16-21

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Understand what a blood covenant is?

 

[KennethC]

Key words - "which He purchased with His own blood" . . . Is that purchase binding? or will the purchase be returned? From your highlighted words - He might have purchased us when we believed . . . .

John 3:16-21

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Understand what a blood covenant is?

I do understand but the covenant and how it was dedicated by His blood, but that does not mean people are automatically saved just from professing Jesus as their Lord. There are multiple scriptures in the bible that speak that the profession of faith has to show in more then just by mouth but in deeds also.

Apostle Paul would not be waning constantly day and night in tears if it was just a loss of rewards at stake !!!

To warn in that matter as stated would have to be something more serious, and Apostle Paul confirms this in other places that we will only be presented blameless and without spot if we continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope (salvation) of the gospel. (Colossians 1:22-23)

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[KennethC]

James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

I would like to add what justification before man could have possible been taken from this situation ???

Abraham and Isaac were alone when he took his son up to be sacrificed on the altar, there was nobody else around to see this act of faith. Plus the bible says we are not to do things for the purpose to be seen by man for self recognition, or to be justified by other men for we do not answer to man.

 

[dcontroversal]

]I do understand[/U] but the covenant and how it was dedicated by His blood, but that does not mean people are automatically saved just from professing Jesus as their Lord. There are multiple scriptures in the bible that speak that the profession of faith has to show in more then just by mouth but in deeds also.

Apostle Paul would not be waning constantly day and night in tears if it was just a loss of rewards at stake !!!

To warn in that matter as stated would have to be something more serious, and Apostle Paul confirms this in other places that we will only be presented blameless and without spot if we continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope (salvation) of the gospel. (Colossians 1:22-23)

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Sure you do...NOT.... and the thief on the cross but acknowledge Jesus as Lord......wake up to the truth!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

To Valigant, Your sub scription is very general and dangerous. You Don't understand the paradox of the truth; both Grace and law are taught by Jesus and all the Bible. Hoffco

There is no paradox in truth. The only Law Christ taught was the Law of Christ, which is faith through grace alone. Your analysis is what is general and dangerous, given it utterly fails to understand Christ and what He taught.

 

[dcontroversal]

I would like to add what justification before man could have possible been taken from this situation ???

Abraham and Isaac were alone when he took his son up to be sacrificed on the altar, there was nobody else around to see this act of faith. Plus the bible says we are not to do things for the purpose to be seen by man for self recognition, or to be justified by other men for we do not answer to man.

The whole key to that discourse is the words...SHOW ME YOUR FAITH.....you cannot grasp this because of our erroneous belief and trust into your works and water!

 

[mailmandan]

Abraham was saved long before he offered Isaac....

Amen! In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith for righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham in Genesis 22 did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but because it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works - "shown to be righteous." So Paul, when he uses the term "justified," he is referring to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and thus prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"Justified by works" does not mean saved by works. See post #54. James is not using the word "justified" here to mean accounted as righteous but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

 

[mailmandan]

The whole key to that discourse is the words...SHOW ME YOUR FAITH.....you cannot grasp this because of our erroneous belief and trust into your works and water!

Yes, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will SHOW you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Those who trust in "water and works" for salvation will claim that they are not teaching salvation by works, even though they teach we are saved by "these" works, just not "those" works, which is sugar coated double talk.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I would like to add what justification before man could have possible been taken from this situation ???

Abraham and Isaac were alone when he took his son up to be sacrificed on the altar, there was nobody else around to see this act of faith. Plus the bible says we are not to do things for the purpose to be seen by man for self recognition, or to be justified by other men for we do not answer to man.

salvation is not by works but after salvation there is the sanctification process which is where we do good physical works.

Paul and James harmonized justification so that we could understand how we are justified before GOD by Faith and how we do works in our bodies that show that the Faith is true.

Show me your Faith without your works and I will show you my Faith by my works.
That's talking about sanctification seen by men but GOD doesn't need to see physical works.
+++
Romans 4:1-2
king James version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath where of to glory; but not before God.

 

[Stephen63]

Why Kenneth? So you can start another works wins over grace thread? I think you have probably done that enough for this week at least?? (And not only you, but others, I see! Sigh!

Still being naughty, I see..... Your buddies took over the thread below this post, and all the while you blame this man.

If you're gonna point fingers, I suggest you point them in the right direction.

 

[Stephen63]

Yeah BEFORE men.....one of these days you might figure it out before you leave this earth.....James is speaking of our faith being justified before MEN by our works....I still see your are blind to this truth!

Since when is there any justification before men ever been in the Bible?

You'd make a great anchor on Fox News.

 

[Stephen63]

Did Elijah sound like a dove when he mocked and ridiculed the false teachers of his day (priests of Baal)
Did Jesus sound like a dove when he made a whip and drove the money changers from the temple and or called the white washed coffins filled with the bones of dead men and or blind leaders of the blind.......
Did John the Immerser sound like a dove when he called the snakes and vipers (the false teachers of his day)
Did Paul sound like a dive when he told the Corinthian church that he would come and not spare...

When you are here a little longer and see how a few of these guys actually operate, how they twist what you say, reject verb tense, context, scriptures in context and the very definitions of the words we are to accept and believe...then......................

I think she already sees.