WORKS SALVATION
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D
How do you rectify that with what Jesus said, "I am the way"?
If we come our own way, than there is more than the way.
In my thinking, the one and only way is superior to any other way.
AND, if God accepts us as we are, then what in the world is he doing to me? Because I can guarantee I am not who I was when he accepted me. He gone and done changed me. And he keeps chiseling me into what he wants -- with or without my permission.
As for following Jesus being our uniformity? Come on! Get real! (Teasing you, not really blasting you here.) You got off BDF to ask this because you know the definition of "FOLLOW Christ" changes drastically depending on who says it. We're as "uniformed" as a mountain range, including the foothills. We belong on the Misfit Toys Island, (reference to Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer out of Christmas season, so figured most won't remember it now), yet God picked some of us to be his army, just like he picked Gideon and that army. It's never about what we do. It's always about what he does.
The upside is he loves us and is ever so merciful to us, that it is worth following him. He was the kind hand that gave us food and patted us on the head, after buying us from a dog fight. Obeying him doesn't come natural to us. Biting him does. But his love and kindness slowly teaches us The Way.
He saved us. He completely, utterly, forcefully, lovingly, mercifully saved us. Not because of who we are. Because of who he is.
Yes, that really does get us to want to follow him, and obey him, but that is the effect, not the cause.
To say we are worthy because we work for him, is to negate who he is and who we are.
If we come our own way, than there is more than the way.
In my thinking, the one and only way is superior to any other way.
AND, if God accepts us as we are, then what in the world is he doing to me? Because I can guarantee I am not who I was when he accepted me. He gone and done changed me. And he keeps chiseling me into what he wants -- with or without my permission.
As for following Jesus being our uniformity? Come on! Get real! (Teasing you, not really blasting you here.) You got off BDF to ask this because you know the definition of "FOLLOW Christ" changes drastically depending on who says it. We're as "uniformed" as a mountain range, including the foothills. We belong on the Misfit Toys Island, (reference to Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer out of Christmas season, so figured most won't remember it now), yet God picked some of us to be his army, just like he picked Gideon and that army. It's never about what we do. It's always about what he does.
The upside is he loves us and is ever so merciful to us, that it is worth following him. He was the kind hand that gave us food and patted us on the head, after buying us from a dog fight. Obeying him doesn't come natural to us. Biting him does. But his love and kindness slowly teaches us The Way.
He saved us. He completely, utterly, forcefully, lovingly, mercifully saved us. Not because of who we are. Because of who he is.
Yes, that really does get us to want to follow him, and obey him, but that is the effect, not the cause.
To say we are worthy because we work for him, is to negate who he is and who we are.
Maybe obedience.
Obedience is an action and would cover works and good deeds.
Obedience is a genuine work.
Others like those who said Lord, Lord didn't we caste out demons in your name are not genuine works that are birthed from obedience.
A work with obedience is genuine and what we're called to do.
Obedience is an action and would cover works and good deeds.
Obedience is a genuine work.
Others like those who said Lord, Lord didn't we caste out demons in your name are not genuine works that are birthed from obedience.
A work with obedience is genuine and what we're called to do.
You've Always asked this MMD.
Now, since we're here nice and calm, I'll answer you and I'm SURE everyone who believes in obeying will agree with me.
If not, they could speak up.
The very fact that you ask the question shows me that there is a misunderstanding as to what works are.
Works DO NOT SAVE US.
JESUS SAVES US.
Nothing to add. Nothnig to DO. It is a work of God. Ephesians 2:8
We are saved by the Love God has for us through our faith in HIM.
As to how many works are needed?
Whatever you can do.
Whatever God asks.
Whatever you do every day.
There is no quantity.
There is no quality.
God sees that we do what we do.
Jesus will cover for what we don't do.
Is this understood?
I mean, did I explain it well enough?
Now, since we're here nice and calm, I'll answer you and I'm SURE everyone who believes in obeying will agree with me.
If not, they could speak up.
The very fact that you ask the question shows me that there is a misunderstanding as to what works are.
Works DO NOT SAVE US.
JESUS SAVES US.
Nothing to add. Nothnig to DO. It is a work of God. Ephesians 2:8
We are saved by the Love God has for us through our faith in HIM.
As to how many works are needed?
Whatever you can do.
Whatever God asks.
Whatever you do every day.
There is no quantity.
There is no quality.
God sees that we do what we do.
Jesus will cover for what we don't do.
Is this understood?
I mean, did I explain it well enough?
D
And then there is the reverse of that nugget:
If we are doing it all, then we never needed Jesus in the first place.
If we could do any of it, we never need the Lord.
I'm not against saying God has us sin sometimes. Roman 1 gets into what God does when we choose to ignore him to be all of us we can be. And it's not pretty.
If we are doing it all, then we never needed Jesus in the first place.
If we could do any of it, we never need the Lord.
I'm not against saying God has us sin sometimes. Roman 1 gets into what God does when we choose to ignore him to be all of us we can be. And it's not pretty.
D
Then in like kind you really don't believe either is a MUST: Obeying God or making dinner every night.
And, yeah, it is semantics, but that's a good thing. Without semantics we can't communicate. The semantic's card has become a device used to avoid thinking out words. Reread my first paragraph again. And let me know where I told you that "MUST obey God" makes you crazy. My words were chosen with purpose, and I'm beginning to think you're so busy defending your belief, you're not taking the time to understand anything being said that doesn't agree with your stance perfectly.
I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm asking you to do what you said you would do -- listen to what others think. Instead of dismissing anything that disagrees with what you say as MO, think out what people are saying.
Where does the desire to obey come from? The same as salvation -- from God. We have our own nature. God gives us his supernature. We still have our nature, but his supernature gives us what is against our nature too, including the desire to obey. What other reason is there to obey? Why would we even want to obey without him giving that desire. We were perfectly capable of getting our own way before the Lord shined his light. That was our nature and it worked for us for as many years as we lived before the Lord saved us. Why change what isn't broke, unless we are handed how it's broken? Why it doesn't work? What's missing?
Is the reason important? Well, yeah! Since the reason is God. What else is important comparatively?
As for me? I'm neither grace-only nor works. Neither one saves me. Nor did faith. The Lord did, not what I did or didn't do.
And, yeah, it is semantics, but that's a good thing. Without semantics we can't communicate. The semantic's card has become a device used to avoid thinking out words. Reread my first paragraph again. And let me know where I told you that "MUST obey God" makes you crazy. My words were chosen with purpose, and I'm beginning to think you're so busy defending your belief, you're not taking the time to understand anything being said that doesn't agree with your stance perfectly.
I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm asking you to do what you said you would do -- listen to what others think. Instead of dismissing anything that disagrees with what you say as MO, think out what people are saying.
Where does the desire to obey come from? The same as salvation -- from God. We have our own nature. God gives us his supernature. We still have our nature, but his supernature gives us what is against our nature too, including the desire to obey. What other reason is there to obey? Why would we even want to obey without him giving that desire. We were perfectly capable of getting our own way before the Lord shined his light. That was our nature and it worked for us for as many years as we lived before the Lord saved us. Why change what isn't broke, unless we are handed how it's broken? Why it doesn't work? What's missing?
Is the reason important? Well, yeah! Since the reason is God. What else is important comparatively?
As for me? I'm neither grace-only nor works. Neither one saves me. Nor did faith. The Lord did, not what I did or didn't do.
I agree with this except one thing..... it IS about quality.
Col. 3 New Living Translation
Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.
New American Standard Bible
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
God's anointing upon us creates the highest quality.
Col. 3 New Living Translation
Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.
New American Standard Bible
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
God's anointing upon us creates the highest quality.
And then there is the reverse of that nugget:
If we are doing it all, then we never needed Jesus in the first place.
If we could do any of it, we never need the Lord.
I'm not against saying God has us sin sometimes. Roman 1 gets into what God does when we choose to ignore him to be all of us we can be. And it's not pretty.
If we are doing it all, then we never needed Jesus in the first place.
If we could do any of it, we never need the Lord.
I'm not against saying God has us sin sometimes. Roman 1 gets into what God does when we choose to ignore him to be all of us we can be. And it's not pretty.
John 5.22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, [SUP]23 [/SUP]so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
P
How does one know another is saved?
You don't. Only that person and God knows.
That does not mean that we not should be concerned for those who say they are saved but "live like the world".
The Scriptures tells us that some have a false assurance.
Yes the Holy Spirit lives in each of us and testifies of Jesus. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us when He left set at the right hand of the Father.
Here is what i see in your post, and I may be wrong.
You believe that a person can, by choice, , void your eternal security that is in Jesus.
John 10:28-30 states that no man can take away the eternal life that Jesus gives to us.
That means I can not void your salvation and neither can you.
I believe these verses and place my hope totally on Jesus.
NOW, because of what I just said, I strive every day to follow every commandment that Jesus said I should follow.
I do it because of my love for Him. Not to gain or KEEP my salvation.
To do anything for God the Father or Jesus to gain or keep my salvation, I would be saying I do not believe John 10:28-30.
I would be saying God is weak because I can by choice overrule God and void my salvation.
Now those who say they are eternally secure in Christ, and also say it does not matter how we live, and then go out and live a life of sin, I AM VERY CONCERNED about there salvation.
Of course, I do not know nor am I to judge, but I will pray that our Heavenly Father will take them behind the wood shed and draw blood from their backside.
You don't. Only that person and God knows.
That does not mean that we not should be concerned for those who say they are saved but "live like the world".
The Scriptures tells us that some have a false assurance.
Yes the Holy Spirit lives in each of us and testifies of Jesus. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us when He left set at the right hand of the Father.
Here is what i see in your post, and I may be wrong.
You believe that a person can, by choice, , void your eternal security that is in Jesus.
John 10:28-30 states that no man can take away the eternal life that Jesus gives to us.
That means I can not void your salvation and neither can you.
I believe these verses and place my hope totally on Jesus.
NOW, because of what I just said, I strive every day to follow every commandment that Jesus said I should follow.
I do it because of my love for Him. Not to gain or KEEP my salvation.
To do anything for God the Father or Jesus to gain or keep my salvation, I would be saying I do not believe John 10:28-30.
I would be saying God is weak because I can by choice overrule God and void my salvation.
Now those who say they are eternally secure in Christ, and also say it does not matter how we live, and then go out and live a life of sin, I AM VERY CONCERNED about there salvation.
Of course, I do not know nor am I to judge, but I will pray that our Heavenly Father will take them behind the wood shed and draw blood from their backside.
I understand just fine.
Strong's Concordance ergon: work
Original Word: ἔργον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ergon
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-gon)
Short Definition: work, labor, action, deed
Definition: work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.
HELPS Word-studies
2041 érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).
Amen!
Do you truly believe that?
That sounds like Mormonism. In the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 25:23) we read - For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. In other words, do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you. Is that what we read in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO
Sounds vague to me.
Strong's Concordance ergon: work
Original Word: ἔργον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ergon
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-gon)
Short Definition: work, labor, action, deed
Definition: work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.
HELPS Word-studies
2041 érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).
Amen!
Do you truly believe that?
That sounds like Mormonism. In the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 25:23) we read - For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. In other words, do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you. Is that what we read in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO
Sounds vague to me.
P
Yes. Peter believed that. That's how he knew the gentiles had received the gift of the Holy Spirit just as they did. Being able to speak in tongues shows that you have received the gift of the Holy Spirit in salvation.
On this side of the cross, only the body of Christ has the Holy Spirit in the empowering of the gifts of the Spirit. Yes, the gifts can be faked, but if hang around tongue talkers long enough you eventually can tell the real gift from those who are faking it. Tongues just happens to be the one gift that we can use to determine, generally speaking, who really has the Holy Spirit in a spiritual gift. You can't definitively determine who has the Holy Spirit by the other gifts with the exception of workers of miracles--a truly rare gift in the western church (credit cards, insurance, etc. pretty much make it so we don't 'need' that gift).
Thankfully, no, because I do not have that gift. I know a person close to me who had that gift (trust me, it was genuine) and they fell away into unbelief because of the trials and tribulations of growing up into the faith (soil #2 in the Parable of the Sower). They will have been away from the Lord in unbelief for 16 years next month.
In my journey for spiritual significance in the Full Gospel church I learned that the fruit of the Spirit is actually the sign of salvation that one should seek for confirmation of having the Son of Promise growing inside of them (like Sarah did after she received the promises). We look in the mirror and we see Jesus growing more and more inside of us via the traits and characteristics of the fruit of the Spirit and so we know that we have Christ inside of us in salvation. A growing of Christ in us that will continue, if we keep believing, until Christ in us comes to full term at the Resurrection.
If you love the Lord, and because you do, you seek to be justified by your works (as James uses the word 'justified', not Paul), seek to be characterized by patience, self control, forgiveness, calmness, peace, and so on. Those traits of the Spirit justify you (show you) to have the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of God in salvation. The more you grow up into those things the greater your assurance is that you have believed and are continuing to believe in a genuine salvation. That is how we are to seek to make our calling and election a sure thing:
All this is not a works gospel. None of this is about earning your salvation, but it surely shows how works must be an integral part of a genuine salvation experience--like getting wet must be an integral part of going swimming. If we claim to be swimming in Christ's baptism of the Holy Spirit we should be able to demonstrate the wetness of that baptism in how we behave. If we can't, we need to seek to do that so we can know for sure if we are genuinely saved or not. As James says, the claim of faith that doesn't have works attached is a faith that can not save you at the Judgment. The absence of the fruit of the Spirit showing in your life being the evidence that you do not have the Holy Spirit in a genuine saving faith.
On this side of the cross, only the body of Christ has the Holy Spirit in the empowering of the gifts of the Spirit. Yes, the gifts can be faked, but if hang around tongue talkers long enough you eventually can tell the real gift from those who are faking it. Tongues just happens to be the one gift that we can use to determine, generally speaking, who really has the Holy Spirit in a spiritual gift. You can't definitively determine who has the Holy Spirit by the other gifts with the exception of workers of miracles--a truly rare gift in the western church (credit cards, insurance, etc. pretty much make it so we don't 'need' that gift).
Thankfully, no, because I do not have that gift. I know a person close to me who had that gift (trust me, it was genuine) and they fell away into unbelief because of the trials and tribulations of growing up into the faith (soil #2 in the Parable of the Sower). They will have been away from the Lord in unbelief for 16 years next month.
In my journey for spiritual significance in the Full Gospel church I learned that the fruit of the Spirit is actually the sign of salvation that one should seek for confirmation of having the Son of Promise growing inside of them (like Sarah did after she received the promises). We look in the mirror and we see Jesus growing more and more inside of us via the traits and characteristics of the fruit of the Spirit and so we know that we have Christ inside of us in salvation. A growing of Christ in us that will continue, if we keep believing, until Christ in us comes to full term at the Resurrection.
If you love the Lord, and because you do, you seek to be justified by your works (as James uses the word 'justified', not Paul), seek to be characterized by patience, self control, forgiveness, calmness, peace, and so on. Those traits of the Spirit justify you (show you) to have the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of God in salvation. The more you grow up into those things the greater your assurance is that you have believed and are continuing to believe in a genuine salvation. That is how we are to seek to make our calling and election a sure thing:
"10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you..." (2 Peter 1:10 NASB)
"11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12 NASB)
"11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12 NASB)
All this is not a works gospel. None of this is about earning your salvation, but it surely shows how works must be an integral part of a genuine salvation experience--like getting wet must be an integral part of going swimming. If we claim to be swimming in Christ's baptism of the Holy Spirit we should be able to demonstrate the wetness of that baptism in how we behave. If we can't, we need to seek to do that so we can know for sure if we are genuinely saved or not. As James says, the claim of faith that doesn't have works attached is a faith that can not save you at the Judgment. The absence of the fruit of the Spirit showing in your life being the evidence that you do not have the Holy Spirit in a genuine saving faith.
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P
There's nothing vague about the fruit of the Spirit. We are to seek to always respond to life's situations and circumstances according to the fruit of the Spirit. That's how you know if you have the faith that saves. Generally speaking, the person who can't prove, as a matter of lifestyle, that Christ is in them via the Holy Spirit is the person who does not have the Holy Spirit in salvation (or, lost it in unbelief along the way somewhere).
Of course, the exact way the fruit of the Spirit manifests itself in 'work' in any one situation will vary. So if you're looking for hard and fast 'rules' of what works of faith look like, we will have to make a rather looooooong post to explain how patience looks in all these situations, or how self control looks in all these situations, etc. The important point is, is that the Spirit is manifesting.
But if you want a generalized set of 'rules' for what the Christian life of faith is to look like, Colossians chapters 3 & 4, and Ephesians chapters 3-6 are perhaps the lengthiest lists in the Bible. James chapters 2-4 is another 'list' of rules that faith in Christ manifests itself in. Romans 12 is another one, I think. And if you are familiar with the Law you will recognize that James' teaching on how to live as a believer in Christ is actually right out of Law. Many Christians simply do not know that the moral life of the Christian faith comes right out of the Law. They have been told by the church that the morality of the New Covenant is a 'new' law. It's new in revelation and understanding, not in substance. Moses gave it to us, the people of God, long ago.
Of course, the exact way the fruit of the Spirit manifests itself in 'work' in any one situation will vary. So if you're looking for hard and fast 'rules' of what works of faith look like, we will have to make a rather looooooong post to explain how patience looks in all these situations, or how self control looks in all these situations, etc. The important point is, is that the Spirit is manifesting.
But if you want a generalized set of 'rules' for what the Christian life of faith is to look like, Colossians chapters 3 & 4, and Ephesians chapters 3-6 are perhaps the lengthiest lists in the Bible. James chapters 2-4 is another 'list' of rules that faith in Christ manifests itself in. Romans 12 is another one, I think. And if you are familiar with the Law you will recognize that James' teaching on how to live as a believer in Christ is actually right out of Law. Many Christians simply do not know that the moral life of the Christian faith comes right out of the Law. They have been told by the church that the morality of the New Covenant is a 'new' law. It's new in revelation and understanding, not in substance. Moses gave it to us, the people of God, long ago.
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In post #32, I made this comment: *Now for those who teach we are saved by works (at least in part), I would like to ask them, "exactly how many works must you accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?"
I never said the fruit of the Spirit is vague. I asked Fran how many works are needed and she answered:
Whatever you can do.
Whatever God asks.
Whatever you do every day.
There is no quantity.
There is no quality.
And you say that's not a vague answer to my question?
Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice (willful, habitual lifestyle, no repentance just bring it on, continuous action) such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
I wasn't asking what works of faith look like and yes, it's an important point that the Spirit is manifesting.
I never said the fruit of the Spirit is vague. I asked Fran how many works are needed and she answered:
Whatever you can do.
Whatever God asks.
Whatever you do every day.
There is no quantity.
There is no quality.
And you say that's not a vague answer to my question?
Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice (willful, habitual lifestyle, no repentance just bring it on, continuous action) such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
I wasn't asking what works of faith look like and yes, it's an important point that the Spirit is manifesting.
Ooooh ! WHO ever said that our works make us worthy????
Then Ephesians 2:8 would be wrong!
Forgot Galatians 2:16, that's even MORE clear.
It's my belief that God wants us to work for Him and when we believe in Jesus we do because we become one in spirit with Him... but what makes us worthy is the BELIEF, not the works.
Then Ephesians 2:8 would be wrong!
Forgot Galatians 2:16, that's even MORE clear.
It's my belief that God wants us to work for Him and when we believe in Jesus we do because we become one in spirit with Him... but what makes us worthy is the BELIEF, not the works.
And then there is the reverse of that nugget:
If we are doing it all, then we never needed Jesus in the first place.
If we could do any of it, we never need the Lord.
I'm not against saying God has us sin sometimes. Roman 1 gets into what God does when we choose to ignore him to be all of us we can be. And it's not pretty.
If we are doing it all, then we never needed Jesus in the first place.
If we could do any of it, we never need the Lord.
I'm not against saying God has us sin sometimes. Roman 1 gets into what God does when we choose to ignore him to be all of us we can be. And it's not pretty.
Do you mean that GOD HAS US SIN...
or do you mean that God ALLOWS us to sin?
Big difference. I think you mean the second.
As far as needing Jesus...
What exactly did we need Jesus for?
Maybe that's a thread??