"You will be as gods"

ValleyAnt · Tuesday at 11:50 PM

In Genesis 3:1-7, satan convinced Eve (and then Adam) to partake of the only thing God told them to avoid. He was a lawyer more than a salesman. A salesman would've focused on how good the fruit looked, tasted, etc. He didn't mention any of those but focused on convincing Eve that God had put restrictions on humanity and that the only way to break free of [all] restrictions (just like God has no restrictions) was to be like God, ie. to be a god (similar to the angels) yourself.

In Acts 17, Paul told the Athenians that God placed restrictions on all humanity, stating, "He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth and determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings so that they should seek the Lord." The "boundaries of their dwellings" that Paul mentioned don't only refer to where people live as people can move around the planet and now off the planet if they want. Those boundaries have to do with God's design: all Creation and its creatures have boundaries including angels.

God is the only one without any boundaries except the ones He has set for Himself. Everyone and everything else has had their boundaries set for them. (Boundaries include limitations of being human, of being male or female, biology, nature, psychology: God chose all these things for all creatures including angels. No creature or person chose for themselves. For example, no one chooses when to be born, where to be born, to what family, what sex or race they will be, their purpose and calling and reason for living or for being born, etc.)
This was part of the reason for the rebellion of 1/3 of the angels (and the intermixing of angels and humans as well)-- they wanted to break free of God's design/boundaries. This need to 'break free' of God's design/purpose/boundaries also drives much of LGBTQ+ among many other dynamics and people.

Psalm 2 says that there are/will be people and world rulers who will try hard to divorce themselves from God's design in an effort to be their own gods. It says that such people think (ie. the attitude in their hearts is) "Let us break Their (the Godhead's) bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." These bonds and cords are the restrictions God placed on people (eg. He made them male and female) which some work hard to break free from. In Romans 1, Paul talks at length about what happens when people decide to rebel against God's design in an effort to 'break free' of those bonds, cords, restrictions, limitations. Paul says that because these people refuse to basically stay in their lane and want to be 'more' than God made them to be, they actually become less, stating that such people"professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."

This is a fascinating dynamic that the Bible mentions often but that you can see in everyday life as well if you know to look: the dynamic is that if someone insists on being 'more' than God made them to be (or more than they actually are), they will actually become less. We see this first happen to lucifer. He was in a very high position, but when he insisted on being 'greater/more' than he actually was and flew up higher to take the Throne, God didn't kick lucifer back down to his original position; He punted him way way way lower in position: he went from Heaven to earth. This dynamic is throughout Jesus's life as well. He had more understanding of God and Scripture at 12 years old than men who were not only way older but who were also teachers of Scripture; this was because Jesus didn't promote Himself and try to be God but accepted His position as it was. He later said to God, "I thank You Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that You have hidden [the mysteries of the Kingdom] from the wise and prudent (ie. those looked at as or expected to be wise and prudent) and have revealed them to babes (ie. people who retain their actual position and don't pretend to be). more/greater than they are)" (Matt. 11:25).

That is God's MO. (Psalm 119:98-100.) He resists the proud (or those who want to be greater/more) but makes Himself available to the humble (or those who are content with their position and don't insist they're more than they really are). I've been to several countries and especially in western nations will you see the desire to "be as gods", primarily in America. The desire and pressure to be 'prestigious gods' rather than 'simple humans' makes people anxious, pretentious, superficial, narcissistic (insufferable to be honest), hateful of others (usually without even knowing it), and chronically unhappy. God made us to be interdependent. In America, we say we are 'better' than that, individualistic, and don't need others. Ie. we're dependent rather than independent. Because we rejected 'our original estate' (our actual state) of interdependence and instead chose to 'ascend' to independence so we could be exalted, the law (dynamic) mentioned in Romans 1:22 kicked into effect (like clockwork when a new clock or watch is first started): "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" or "Pretending to be greater, they became lesser." Every time someone presumes to be higher up than they are, they 'lose points' and become less. This of course is rarely immediately obvious but in the spirit, it does happen immediately. lucifer was dispatched from Heaven immediately after he rebelled and tried to 'break free'; so were Adam and Eve. I think this dynamic is fascinating because it is unexpected (it's backward to go down as soon as you go up) and because it happens without exception every time. Americans, exalted above all other people, are the most broken, impoverished, lost, and in need of God's intervention. This is according to the spiritual principle-- mentioned many times in the Bible but functioning well before the Bible began to be written-- that God is close to the humble/reasonable but neglects the prideful/deluded. The sin of lucifer (pride, rebellion, a desire to be God) is bountiful in Amerida. But of course, where sin abounds.

keepingthingsreal · Wednesday at 11:49 AM

In God's kingdom, the way up is definitely down. We see this foremost in Jesus' mindset which ought to be our mindsets as well.

Phl 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus' path to exaltation was one of humility and obedience, and no servant is above his master.

When his disciples were jockeying for positions in his coming kingdom, Jesus had to inform them that the greatest among them would be the one who was the last of all, and the servant of all.

Mar 9:33
And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
Mar 9:34
But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
Mar 9:35
And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Apparently, they did not get the message the first time because Jesus had to repeat it to them again only shortly thereafter.

Mar 10:35
And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mar 10:36
And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
Mar 10:37
They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38
But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39
And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40
But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mar 10:41
And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.
Mar 10:42
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43
But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

We live in a world where most people seek a place of preeminence, or a place of authoritative rule over others, and where very few people desire to serve others. Unfortunately, that world includes many people within the professing church. People really need to take heed to the following admonitions in scripture.

Ecc 7:16
Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?

Also:

Luk 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Additionally:

Jas 3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jas 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

With much wisdom, and with much authority, comes much accountability on the day of judgement, and we all would be wise to recognize the same.

1Pe 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
1Pe 5:7
Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

homwardbound · Wednesday at 12:49 PM

ValleyAnt said:

In Genesis 3:1-7, satan convinced Eve (and then Adam) to partake of the only thing God told them to avoid. He was a lawyer more than a salesman. A salesman would've focused on how good the fruit looked, tasted, etc. He didn't mention any of those but focused on convincing Eve that God had put restrictions on humanity and that the only way to break free of [all] restrictions (just like God has no restrictions) was to be like God, ie. to be a god (similar to the angels) yourself.

In Acts 17, Paul told the Athenians that God placed restrictions on all humanity, stating, "He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth and determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings so that they should seek the Lord." The "boundaries of their dwellings" that Paul mentioned don't only refer to where people live as people can move around the planet and now off the planet if they want. Those boundaries have to do with God's design: all Creation and its creatures have boundaries including angels.

God is the only one without any boundaries except the ones He has set for Himself. Everyone and everything else has had their boundaries set for them. (Boundaries include limitations of being human, of being male or female, biology, nature, psychology: God chose all these things for all creatures including angels. No creature or person chose for themselves. For example, no one chooses when to be born, where to be born, to what family, what sex or race they will be, their purpose and calling and reason for living or for being born, etc.)
This was part of the reason for the rebellion of 1/3 of the angels (and the intermixing of angels and humans as well)-- they wanted to break free of God's design/boundaries. This need to 'break free' of God's design/purpose/boundaries also drives much of LGBTQ+ among many other dynamics and people.

Psalm 2 says that there are/will be people and world rulers who will try hard to divorce themselves from God's design in an effort to be their own gods. It says that such people think (ie. the attitude in their hearts is) "Let us break Their (the Godhead's) bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." These bonds and cords are the restrictions God placed on people (eg. He made them male and female) which some work hard to break free from. In Romans 1, Paul talks at length about what happens when people decide to rebel against God's design in an effort to 'break free' of those bonds, cords, restrictions, limitations. Paul says that because these people refuse to basically stay in their lane and want to be 'more' than God made them to be, they actually become less, stating that such people"professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."

This is a fascinating dynamic that the Bible mentions often but that you can see in everyday life as well if you know to look: the dynamic is that if someone insists on being 'more' than God made them to be (or more than they actually are), they will actually become less. We see this first happen to lucifer. He was in a very high position, but when he insisted on being 'greater/more' than he actually was and flew up higher to take the Throne, God didn't kick lucifer back down to his original position; He punted him way way way lower in position: he went from Heaven to earth. This dynamic is throughout Jesus's life as well. He had more understanding of God and Scripture at 12 years old than men who were not only way older but who were also teachers of Scripture; this was because Jesus didn't promote Himself and try to be God but accepted His position as it was. He later said to God, "I thank You Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that You have hidden [the mysteries of the Kingdom] from the wise and prudent (ie. those looked at as or expected to be wise and prudent) and have revealed them to babes (ie. people who retain their actual position and don't pretend to be). more/greater than they are)" (Matt. 11:25).

That is God's MO. (Psalm 119:98-100.) He resists the proud (or those who want to be greater/more) but makes Himself available to the humble (or those who are content with their position and don't insist they're more than they really are). I've been to several countries and especially in western nations will you see the desire to "be as gods", primarily in America. The desire and pressure to be 'prestigious gods' rather than 'simple humans' makes people anxious, pretentious, superficial, narcissistic (insufferable to be honest), hateful of others (usually without even knowing it), and chronically unhappy. God made us to be interdependent. In America, we say we are 'better' than that, individualistic, and don't need others. Ie. we're dependent rather than independent. Because we rejected 'our original estate' (our actual state) of interdependence and instead chose to 'ascend' to independence so we could be exalted, the law (dynamic) mentioned in Romans 1:22 kicked into effect (like clockwork when a new clock or watch is first started): "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" or "Pretending to be greater, they became lesser." Every time someone presumes to be higher up than they are, they 'lose points' and become less. This of course is rarely immediately obvious but in the spirit, it does happen immediately. lucifer was dispatched from Heaven immediately after he rebelled and tried to 'break free'; so were Adam and Eve. I think this dynamic is fascinating because it is unexpected (it's backward to go down as soon as you go up) and because it happens without exception every time. Americans, exalted above all other people, are the most broken, impoverished, lost, and in need of God's intervention. This is according to the spiritual principle-- mentioned many times in the Bible but functioning well before the Bible began to be written-- that God is close to the humble/reasonable but neglects the prideful/deluded. The sin of lucifer (pride, rebellion, a desire to be God) is bountiful in Amerida. But of course, where sin abounds.

Thank you for the reminder

Magenta · Wednesday at 1:48 PM

Acts 17:26-27 ~ From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

homwardbound · Wednesday at 3:15 PM

Magenta said:

lifes boundaries, are like a game of chess thank you for the scripture

bluto · Wednesday at 4:52 PM

ValleyAnt said:

In Genesis 3:1-7, satan convinced Eve (and then Adam) to partake of the only thing God told them to avoid. He was a lawyer more than a salesman. A salesman would've focused on how good the fruit looked, tasted, etc. He didn't mention any of those but focused on convincing Eve that God had put restrictions on humanity and that the only way to break free of [all] restrictions (just like God has no restrictions) was to be like God, ie. to be a god (similar to the angels) yourself.

In Acts 17, Paul told the Athenians that God placed restrictions on all humanity, stating, "He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth and determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings so that they should seek the Lord." The "boundaries of their dwellings" that Paul mentioned don't only refer to where people live as people can move around the planet and now off the planet if they want. Those boundaries have to do with God's design: all Creation and its creatures have boundaries including angels.

God is the only one without any boundaries except the ones He has set for Himself. Everyone and everything else has had their boundaries set for them. (Boundaries include limitations of being human, of being male or female, biology, nature, psychology: God chose all these things for all creatures including angels. No creature or person chose for themselves. For example, no one chooses when to be born, where to be born, to what family, what sex or race they will be, their purpose and calling and reason for living or for being born, etc.)
This was part of the reason for the rebellion of 1/3 of the angels (and the intermixing of angels and humans as well)-- they wanted to break free of God's design/boundaries. This need to 'break free' of God's design/purpose/boundaries also drives much of LGBTQ+ among many other dynamics and people.

Psalm 2 says that there are/will be people and world rulers who will try hard to divorce themselves from God's design in an effort to be their own gods. It says that such people think (ie. the attitude in their hearts is) "Let us break Their (the Godhead's) bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." These bonds and cords are the restrictions God placed on people (eg. He made them male and female) which some work hard to break free from. In Romans 1, Paul talks at length about what happens when people decide to rebel against God's design in an effort to 'break free' of those bonds, cords, restrictions, limitations. Paul says that because these people refuse to basically stay in their lane and want to be 'more' than God made them to be, they actually become less, stating that such people"professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."

This is a fascinating dynamic that the Bible mentions often but that you can see in everyday life as well if you know to look: the dynamic is that if someone insists on being 'more' than God made them to be (or more than they actually are), they will actually become less. We see this first happen to lucifer. He was in a very high position, but when he insisted on being 'greater/more' than he actually was and flew up higher to take the Throne, God didn't kick lucifer back down to his original position; He punted him way way way lower in position: he went from Heaven to earth. This dynamic is throughout Jesus's life as well. He had more understanding of God and Scripture at 12 years old than men who were not only way older but who were also teachers of Scripture; this was because Jesus didn't promote Himself and try to be God but accepted His position as it was. He later said to God, "I thank You Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that You have hidden [the mysteries of the Kingdom] from the wise and prudent (ie. those looked at as or expected to be wise and prudent) and have revealed them to babes (ie. people who retain their actual position and don't pretend to be). more/greater than they are)" (Matt. 11:25).

That is God's MO. (Psalm 119:98-100.) He resists the proud (or those who want to be greater/more) but makes Himself available to the humble (or those who are content with their position and don't insist they're more than they really are). I've been to several countries and especially in western nations will you see the desire to "be as gods", primarily in America. The desire and pressure to be 'prestigious gods' rather than 'simple humans' makes people anxious, pretentious, superficial, narcissistic (insufferable to be honest), hateful of others (usually without even knowing it), and chronically unhappy. God made us to be interdependent. In America, we say we are 'better' than that, individualistic, and don't need others. Ie. we're dependent rather than independent. Because we rejected 'our original estate' (our actual state) of interdependence and instead chose to 'ascend' to independence so we could be exalted, the law (dynamic) mentioned in Romans 1:22 kicked into effect (like clockwork when a new clock or watch is first started): "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" or "Pretending to be greater, they became lesser." Every time someone presumes to be higher up than they are, they 'lose points' and become less. This of course is rarely immediately obvious but in the spirit, it does happen immediately. lucifer was dispatched from Heaven immediately after he rebelled and tried to 'break free'; so were Adam and Eve. I think this dynamic is fascinating because it is unexpected (it's backward to go down as soon as you go up) and because it happens without exception every time. Americans, exalted above all other people, are the most broken, impoverished, lost, and in need of God's intervention. This is according to the spiritual principle-- mentioned many times in the Bible but functioning well before the Bible began to be written-- that God is close to the humble/reasonable but neglects the prideful/deluded. The sin of lucifer (pride, rebellion, a desire to be God) is bountiful in Amerida. But of course, where sin abounds.

Since the subject of "gods" has been brought up I thought it would be instructive that Jesus Himself brought it up at John 10:30-38. Specifically, at vs34-36. "Jesus answered them/the Jews, "Has it not been written in your Law, "I said you are Gods.?" (Jesus is quoting Psalm 82:6) Vs35, "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken. Vs36, "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Your blaspheming, because I said, "I am the Son of God?" So my question is why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6? What point was He making? Btw, please read the whole context starting at John 10:3.0.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

ValleyAnt · Wednesday at 10:41 PM

bluto said:

I have no idea. I'll be waiting for an answer with you.

Note: if you take time to ask God to reveal the answer to you and keep asking, He'll reveal it. FYI. I have never taken the time to look into that prayerfully but maybe you can make some time for it.

ValleyAnt · Wednesday at 10:43 PM

Magenta said:

If I had a favorite sermon in the entire NT it would be that one from Mars Hill because of the way Paul spoke the message to the Greeks/Athenians in their own 'language' (ie. not just speaking in Greek but also empathizing with them and speaking as if he was an Athenian himself). Everything he said made perfect sense to them, whereas to Jews it wouldn't have resonated nearly the same way, until he mentioned the supernatural-- ie. Jesus rising from the dead-- then their eyes started rolling around. Brilliant message. He definitely received that message in the moment (rhema), directly from God.

Magenta · Wednesday at 10:46 PM

ValleyAnt said:

1 Corinthians 9:22b I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

homwardbound · Thursday at 9:57 AM

bluto said:

Man has become as one of us, God says that in Genesis after Adam the first ate from the tree of knowledge. Then God put a cherubim at the gate to the Garden of Eden to not let anyone in, to prevent anyone from eating from the tree of life, not until the son had come died willingly for us the people and be risen for us to be given new life in God Father's Spirit and Truth being made new as in being given the Holy Spirit as our guide to see truth over errors of this world still here in this world to this day. Man flesh wanting to be God in charge. Satan defeated at the risen Christ. So much perplexities here in this world we all are in and hoping to not be a part of anymore, at least me thanks bluto

TiggerTwo · 2024-11-23T16:30:34-0500

bluto said:

.......................................................................

John is the only Gospel writer who used the word theos in all its meanings. It should not be surprising, then, that he is also the only Gospel writer who clearly applies the title theos directly to Jesus! John, like some of those ancient Hebrew Scripture writers of the Old Testament who used elohim in all its various meanings, used it to mean the only true God over 90% of the time. But in a few scriptures he used it to mean "a god" in its positive, subordinate, secondary sense. A clear instance of this is found at John 10:33-36 where Jesus quotes from and comments on Psalm 82:6.

It is certainly better to use the trinitarian-translated New English Bible (NEB) here because it obviously translates theos correctly at John 10:33 ("a god") whereas the King James Version and many other trinitarian translations do not.

The context of John 10:33-36 (and of Psalm 82:6 which is quoted there) and NT Greek grammar show "a god" to be the correct rendering. Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, p. 62, by the respected trinitarian, Dr. Robert Young, confirms this:

"`makest thyself a god,' not `God' as in C.V. [King James Version or `Common Version'], otherwise the definite article would not have been omitted, as it is here, and in the next two verses, -- `gods .. gods,' where the title is applied to magistrates, and others ...."

It is also admitted that this is the meaning of Jn 10:33 by noted trinitarian NT scholar C. H. Dodd:
"making himself a god." - The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, p. 205, Cambridge University Press, 1995 reprint.

A Translator's Handbook on the Gospel of John by trinitarians Newman and Nida insists that "a god" would not be "in keeping with the theology of John" and the charge of blasphemy by the Jews, but, nevertheless, also admits:

"Purely on the basis of the Greek text, therefore, it is possible to translate [John 10:33] 'a god,' as NEB does, rather than to translate God, as TEV and several other translations do. One might argue on the basis of both the Greek and the context, that the Jews were accusing Jesus of claiming to be `a god' rather than 'God.' "- p. 344, United Bible Societies, 1980.

The highly respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine indicates the proper rendering here:
"The word [theos] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34" - p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
So, in the NEB it reads:

" 'We are not going to stone you for any good deed, but for your blasphemy. You, a mere man, claim to be a god.' Jesus answered, 'Is it not written in your own Law, "I said: You are gods"? Those are called gods to whom the word of God was delivered - and Scripture cannot be set aside. Then why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, "I am God's SON"?' "

Not only do we see John using theos in its positive alternate meaning here, but we also see Jesus clarifying it. When some of the Jews were ready to stone him because they said he was claiming to be a god (Jesus' reply about men being called gods in the scriptures would have been nonsensical if he were replying to an accusation of being God), Jesus first pointed out that God himself had called judges of Israel gods (Ps. 82:6)!

TiggerTwo · 2024-11-23T16:34:34-0500

TiggerTwo said:

.......................................................................

John is the only Gospel writer who used the word theos in all its meanings. It should not be surprising, then, that he is also the only Gospel writer who clearly applies the title theos directly to Jesus! John, like some of those ancient Hebrew Scripture writers of the Old Testament who used elohim in all its various meanings, used it to mean the only true God over 90% of the time. But in a few scriptures he used it to mean "a god" in its positive, subordinate, secondary sense. A clear instance of this is found at John 10:33-36 where Jesus quotes from and comments on Psalm 82:6.

It is certainly better to use the trinitarian-translated New English Bible (NEB) here because it obviously translates theos correctly at John 10:33 ("a god") whereas the King James Version and many other trinitarian translations do not.

The context of John 10:33-36 (and of Psalm 82:6 which is quoted there) and NT Greek grammar show "a god" to be the correct rendering. Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, p. 62, by the respected trinitarian, Dr. Robert Young, confirms this:

"`makest thyself a god,' not `God' as in C.V. [King James Version or `Common Version'], otherwise the definite article would not have been omitted, as it is here, and in the next two verses, -- `gods .. gods,' where the title is applied to magistrates, and others ...."

It is also admitted that this is the meaning of Jn 10:33 by noted trinitarian NT scholar C. H. Dodd:
"making himself a god." - The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, p. 205, Cambridge University Press, 1995 reprint.

A Translator's Handbook on the Gospel of John by trinitarians Newman and Nida insists that "a god" would not be "in keeping with the theology of John" and the charge of blasphemy by the Jews, but, nevertheless, also admits:

"Purely on the basis of the Greek text, therefore, it is possible to translate [John 10:33] 'a god,' as NEB does, rather than to translate God, as TEV and several other translations do. One might argue on the basis of both the Greek and the context, that the Jews were accusing Jesus of claiming to be `a god' rather than 'God.' "- p. 344, United Bible Societies, 1980.

The highly respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine indicates the proper rendering here:
"The word [theos] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34" - p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
So, in the NEB it reads:

" 'We are not going to stone you for any good deed, but for your blasphemy. You, a mere man, claim to be a god.' Jesus answered, 'Is it not written in your own Law, "I said: You are gods"? Those are called gods to whom the word of God was delivered - and Scripture cannot be set aside. Then why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, "I am God's SON"?' "

Not only do we see John using theos in its positive alternate meaning here, but we also see Jesus clarifying it. When some of the Jews were ready to stone him because they said he was claiming to be a god (Jesus' reply about men being called gods in the scriptures would have been nonsensical if he were replying to an accusation of being God), Jesus first pointed out that God himself had called judges of Israel gods (Ps. 82:6)!
............................................................

Some trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.

(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik - http://www.blbclassic.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=2&contentID=20085&commInfo=31&topic=John )

And, of course, the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.” And, as we saw above, many highly respected NT scholars of this century agree.

bluto · 2024-11-23T18:01:57-0500

TiggerTwo said:

According to the context starting at John 10:30 Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." So how are they one? Some say and teach that the Father and the Son are one in purpose. It is true that they are one in purpose but that is not what Jesus was saying. At vs31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Being one in purpose is not a stoning crime and at vs32 Jesus says, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

Vs33, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a a man, make Yourself out God." Going back to John 10:30 Jesus asserted the essential unity of the Father and the Son in the word "one" (hen). It is a neuter number to indicate equality of essence/nature, attributes, design, will, and work. Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." Thus, these words separate the persons within the Godhead, but "one" asserts their unity or essence or nature AS IDENTICAL.

So why does Jesus at John 10:34 bring up the subject of "gods?" Has it not been written in your Law, "I said you are Gods?" Vs35, "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), vs36, "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the word, You are blaspheming, because I said, "I am the Son of God?"

What Jesus is simply doing is taking the Jew's statement about Him blaspheming to its logical conclusion to show that they are being inconsistent. In effect, Jesus is saying, "If you say that I am blaspheming, you must also hold that God is blaspheming because He said to those by whom the word of God came, 'ye are gods." Of course the judges at Psalm 82:6 are not real gods but were commissioned to judge righteously, which they were not doing and God says you will die like the men that your are. In short, Jesus is "NOT" a god but the God of the Bible.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

TiggerTwo · 2024-11-23T19:11:49-0500

Bible writers consistently described groups of individuals as “one” figuratively in the sense of their being “united in will and purpose.” Here’s how one respected trinitarian reference book states it:

“‘One’ also expresses the unity between Christ and the Father (Jn 10:30), the union between believers and the Godhead, and the unity which exists among Christians (Jn 17:21; Gal. 3:28). ‘One’ further expresses singleness of purpose” - p. 844, New Bible Dictionary, (2nd ed.), 1982, Tyndale House Publ.

However, since we are concerned with a scripture written by John, we need to be assured that John (and even more specifically that Jesus as quoted by John) uses this figurative sense of “one” for groups of individuals.

Therefore, let’s examine John 17:22. “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as we are one.” - NASB. (Compare John 17:11. - A footnote for John 17:11 in the very trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 says: “the unity is to be like that between the Father and the Son.”)

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.

Notice that Jesus clearly defines his being “one” with his Father as being in the very same sense that he wants certain Christians to be “one”: “just as we are one” (NASB). There can be no doubt, then, that John 10:30 does not mean Jesus and the Father are equally God, but that, just as certain Christians were “one” in will and purpose so “the Father and I are one [in will and purpose].”

Although they have the same will and purpose as God, it is because they willingly and totally accept and conform to God’s will and purpose and take them as their own. God does not conform to their wills but they to his! This is exactly the same way that Christ is one in will with the Father (who alone is God) - Analyze John 6:38.

Bible Greek expert Joseph H. Thayer tells us “one” can mean

“to be united most closely (in will, spirit), Jn x.30 [John 10:30]; xvii.11, 21-23 [John 17:11, 21-23]” - p. 186, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House, tenth printing, August, 1984.

Commenting on John 10:30, J. H. Bernard, D.D. says in A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John:

“A unity of fellowship, of will, and of purpose between the Father and the Son is a frequent theme in the Fourth Gospel..., and it is tersely and powerfully expressed here; but to press the words so as to make them indicate identity of ousia [Greek for ‘substance,’ ‘essence’], is to introduce thoughts that were not present to the theologians of the first century."

Even the very trinitarian New Testament Greek scholar W. E. Vine when discussing the Greek word for “one” says: “(b) metaphorically [figuratively], union and concord, e.g., John 10:30; 11:52; 17:11, 21, 22....” - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 809.

Trinitarian Professor William Barclay writing in his popular Daily Study Bible Series, The Gospel of John, Vol. 2, The Westminster Press, 1975, pp. 74, 75, 76 says:

“Now we come to the supreme claim [of John 10:30]. ‘I and the Father are one,’ said Jesus. What did he mean? Is it absolute mystery, or can we understand at least a little of it? Are we driven to interpret it in terms of essence and hypostasis and all the rest of the metaphysical and philosophic notions about which the makers of creeds fought and argued? Has one to be a theologian and a philosopher to grasp even a fragment of the meaning of this tremendous statement?

“If we go to the Bible itself for the interpretation,” continues Barclay, “we find that it is in fact so simple that the simplest mind can grasp it. Let us turn to the seventeenth chapter of John’s Gospel, which tells of the prayer of Jesus for his followers before he went to his death: ‘Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one’ (John 17:11). Jesus conceived of the unity of Christian with Christian as the same as his unity with God.”

“Here is the essence of the matter”, says Barclay. “The bond of unity is love; the proof of love is obedience. Christians are one with each other when they are bound by love, and obey the words of Christ. Jesus is one with God, because as no other ever did, he obeyed and loved him. His unity with God is a unity of perfect love, issuing in perfect obedience.[2]

"When Jesus said: ‘I and the father are one,’ he was not moving in the world of philosophy and metaphysics and abstractions; he was moving in the world of personal relationships. No one can really understand what a phrase like ‘a unity of essence’ means; but any one can understand what a unity of heart means. Jesus’s unity with God came from the twin facts of perfect love and perfect obedience. He was one with God because he loved and obeyed him perfectly....”

Finally, we need to be aware that the word “one” at John 10:30 and 17:22 is the neuter form hen. The two other forms for “one” are mia, which is the feminine form, and heis, the masculine form. Those who insist that John 10:30 means “the Father and I are one God” are clearly wrong as shown by New Testament Greek grammar alone. “God” in New Testament Greek is always masculine and must take masculine forms of adjectives, pronouns, etc. in agreement (see Mark 12:29, 32; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:4-6 in interlinear Bibles).

Or, as Dr. Marshall puts it in one of his basic NT Greek grammar rules:

“Adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in number, gender,...and case”. - p. 25, Rule 7, New Testament Greek Primer, Alfred Marshall, Zondervan Publishing, 1978 printing. (Compare 1 Cor. 3:8 in interlinear Bible [esp. note footnote in The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English] with NIV; NAB; LB; and CBW.)

Therefore, the use of the neuter “one” (hen) at John 10:30 shows “one God” could not have been intended by Jesus but instead shows “metaphorically, union and concord”! As we have seen in the study on “Wisdom” (BWF), we may have gender irregularities when someone is described figuratively (“metaphorically”) such as “he is a Rock” or “Jesus is the Lamb,” but when he is being literally described we must have gender agreement.

Magenta · 2024-11-23T19:17:13-0500

John 1:1 + 14a In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.

GWH · 2024-11-23T19:34:52-0500

homwardbound said:

Man has become as one of us, God says that in Genesis after Adam the first ate from the tree of knowledge. Then God put a cherubim at the gate to the Garden of Eden to not let anyone in, to prevent anyone from eating from the tree of life, not until the son had come died willingly for us the people and be risen for us to be given new life in God Father's Spirit and Truth being made new as in being given the Holy Spirit as our guide to see truth over errors of this world still here in this world to this day. Man flesh wanting to be God in charge. Satan defeated at the risen Christ. So much perplexities here in this world we all are in and hoping to not be a part of anymore, at least me thanks bluto

...and God has become as one of us per MT 1:23 & JN 1:14.

bluto · 2024-11-23T19:48:30-0500

TiggerTwo said:

Bible writers consistently described groups of individuals as “one” figuratively in the sense of their being “united in will and purpose.” Here’s how one respected trinitarian reference book states it:

“‘One’ also expresses the unity between Christ and the Father (Jn 10:30), the union between believers and the Godhead, and the unity which exists among Christians (Jn 17:21; Gal. 3:28). ‘One’ further expresses singleness of purpose” - p. 844, New Bible Dictionary, (2nd ed.), 1982, Tyndale House Publ.

However, since we are concerned with a scripture written by John, we need to be assured that John (and even more specifically that Jesus as quoted by John) uses this figurative sense of “one” for groups of individuals.

Therefore, let’s examine John 17:22. “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as we are one.” - NASB. (Compare John 17:11. - A footnote for John 17:11 in the very trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 says: “the unity is to be like that between the Father and the Son.”)

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.

Notice that Jesus clearly defines his being “one” with his Father as being in the very same sense that he wants certain Christians to be “one”: “just as we are one” (NASB). There can be no doubt, then, that John 10:30 does not mean Jesus and the Father are equally God, but that, just as certain Christians were “one” in will and purpose so “the Father and I are one [in will and purpose].”

Although they have the same will and purpose as God, it is because they willingly and totally accept and conform to God’s will and purpose and take them as their own. God does not conform to their wills but they to his! This is exactly the same way that Christ is one in will with the Father (who alone is God) - Analyze John 6:38.

Bible Greek expert Joseph H. Thayer tells us “one” can mean

“to be united most closely (in will, spirit), Jn x.30 [John 10:30]; xvii.11, 21-23 [John 17:11, 21-23]” - p. 186, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House, tenth printing, August, 1984.

Commenting on John 10:30, J. H. Bernard, D.D. says in A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John:

“A unity of fellowship, of will, and of purpose between the Father and the Son is a frequent theme in the Fourth Gospel..., and it is tersely and powerfully expressed here; but to press the words so as to make them indicate identity of ousia [Greek for ‘substance,’ ‘essence’], is to introduce thoughts that were not present to the theologians of the first century."

Even the very trinitarian New Testament Greek scholar W. E. Vine when discussing the Greek word for “one” says: “(b) metaphorically [figuratively], union and concord, e.g., John 10:30; 11:52; 17:11, 21, 22....” - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 809.

Trinitarian Professor William Barclay writing in his popular Daily Study Bible Series, The Gospel of John, Vol. 2, The Westminster Press, 1975, pp. 74, 75, 76 says:

“Now we come to the supreme claim [of John 10:30]. ‘I and the Father are one,’ said Jesus. What did he mean? Is it absolute mystery, or can we understand at least a little of it? Are we driven to interpret it in terms of essence and hypostasis and all the rest of the metaphysical and philosophic notions about which the makers of creeds fought and argued? Has one to be a theologian and a philosopher to grasp even a fragment of the meaning of this tremendous statement?

“If we go to the Bible itself for the interpretation,” continues Barclay, “we find that it is in fact so simple that the simplest mind can grasp it. Let us turn to the seventeenth chapter of John’s Gospel, which tells of the prayer of Jesus for his followers before he went to his death: ‘Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one’ (John 17:11). Jesus conceived of the unity of Christian with Christian as the same as his unity with God.”

“Here is the essence of the matter”, says Barclay. “The bond of unity is love; the proof of love is obedience. Christians are one with each other when they are bound by love, and obey the words of Christ. Jesus is one with God, because as no other ever did, he obeyed and loved him. His unity with God is a unity of perfect love, issuing in perfect obedience.[2]

"When Jesus said: ‘I and the father are one,’ he was not moving in the world of philosophy and metaphysics and abstractions; he was moving in the world of personal relationships. No one can really understand what a phrase like ‘a unity of essence’ means; but any one can understand what a unity of heart means. Jesus’s unity with God came from the twin facts of perfect love and perfect obedience. He was one with God because he loved and obeyed him perfectly....”

Finally, we need to be aware that the word “one” at John 10:30 and 17:22 is the neuter form hen. The two other forms for “one” are mia, which is the feminine form, and heis, the masculine form. Those who insist that John 10:30 means “the Father and I are one God” are clearly wrong as shown by New Testament Greek grammar alone. “God” in New Testament Greek is always masculine and must take masculine forms of adjectives, pronouns, etc. in agreement (see Mark 12:29, 32; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:4-6 in interlinear Bibles).

Or, as Dr. Marshall puts it in one of his basic NT Greek grammar rules:

“Adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in number, gender,...and case”. - p. 25, Rule 7, New Testament Greek Primer, Alfred Marshall, Zondervan Publishing, 1978 printing. (Compare 1 Cor. 3:8 in interlinear Bible [esp. note footnote in The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English] with NIV; NAB; LB; and CBW.)

Therefore, the use of the neuter “one” (hen) at John 10:30 shows “one God” could not have been intended by Jesus but instead shows “metaphorically, union and concord”! As we have seen in the study on “Wisdom” (BWF), we may have gender irregularities when someone is described figuratively (“metaphorically”) such as “he is a Rock” or “Jesus is the Lamb,” but when he is being literally described we must have gender agreement.

After reading all that you wrote, and btw I am aware of most of it, I have a couple of questions? If Jesus and the Father are one in union and concord, metaphorically, purpose or even in gender, how do these words justify the Jews wanting to kill Jesus for blasphemy? Or to put it another way!

Whether or not the Jews are correctly or incorrectly understanding Jesus is not the issue. The issue is what was it that Jesus said that caused them to say He was claiming to God that so upset the Jews. Not only here at John 10:30, also at John 5:17-18; John 8:57-59; John 19:7 and at the full trial record at Matthew 26:57-68. You can read these references for yourself. Lastly, you brought up your study of "Wisdom" (BWF). Where can I found it to read for myself? And one more thing! John 10:30 or the other references have nothing to do with your following statement:

Wisdom” (BWF), we may have gender irregularities when someone is described figuratively (“metaphorically”) such as “he is a Rock” or “Jesus is the Lamb,” but when he is being literally described we must have gender agreement.[/QUOTE]

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

ChristRoseFromTheDead · 2024-11-23T20:01:14-0500

bluto said:

Jesus stated that he was the fulfillment of this prophecy in Daniel, which they knew and considered his claim blasphemy

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. Matthew 26:64-65

SomeDisciple · 2024-11-23T20:46:43-0500

ValleyAnt said:

Grace will that much further abound.

I think a lot of America is where it's at is because; similar to Pharisee-led-Israel, there were a lot of unbiblical traditions being used as a boundary line. But everybody here seems to have their own standard that they want to put people under; which is why we are having people simply start rejecting all standards to get out of the boxes that they have been stuffed into. The result is a mess; but no better than life inside of the box.

ValleyAnt · 2024-11-23T23:12:52-0500

SomeDisciple said:

Indeed.

I wanted to leave the US and go somewhere else. The US is a lot worse than it seems. A lot worse. But as horrible as it is, it's also not nearly as hopeless as it seems. This is a legitimate oxymoron of a dynamic that's available and that can occur whenever God has a say in anything: "Son of man, can these bones live" (Ezekiel 37).

I told God I was going to leave the US. I complained that I haven't been anywhere with people as stupid. (These were legitimate concerns and honest complaints. Nothing was personal. I was sharing what I was seeing.) I can be patient with dumb but have a very hard time with stupid. I told God, "Okay, the stupid is really restricting me. We're stupid here. We're backward here and like little children don't know up from down and right from wrong. I want out."

God, unlike us, doesn't deny or contradict the truth. He did not tell me what I was saying was false. Rather, He took me to Jonah 4 where Jonah got angry about his personal issues and directed my eyes here: "Should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left..." It wasn't a matter of pity for me; it was a matter of I want to get outta here so I can stop rolling my eyes every day. But God responded that He knows people here are [stupid] but that there are too many people to give up on. That "who cannot discern their right hand from their left" grabbed my attention because I see the very same thing in the US. God it's sad. But thank God for Grace.

You said, "Everybody here seems to have their own standard that they want to put people under; which is why we are having people simply start rejecting all standards to get out of the boxes that they have been stuffed into." It's the result of the blind (the inept) leading the blind:

1.) Adults who never grew up have to raise children.

2.) Ministers who don't want to lead have to lead congregations.

3.) Professionals who know little are teaching everyone else to know little.

The queen of Sheba visited Solomon and came away impressed at his wisdom and riches. (2Chronicles 9.) "Grace abounded much more" is going to be extravagant with its outpouring(s) in the US because we're impressively anti-Christ as well as anti-human ('anti-human' being the real meaning of 'antisocial'). We hate people here extravagantly, rarely aware of it but that hate the result of a compendium of different aspects of our lives (eg. selfishness, self-absorption, self-preservation, pride, etc.).

"You will be as gods"

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