If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

[Chuckt]

You ought to study more; Apostle Paul used the term 'elect' 3 times in his Epistles to Christ's Church.

Titus 1:1
1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
KJV

And per Paul, the early foundation of Christ's Church was made up of Christ's Apostles to whom Jesus was speaking to in Matt.24 about the events of the end of this world. The pre-trib doctors lie against that Eph.2 proof though, which is who you instead listen to and heed.

[h=2]The Election of Israel[/h]While election is made by God and men of people and places, there is a usage that stands out uniquely in Scripture: God’s chosen people, the elect, are the Israelites. The title “chosen/elect” is in no less than eight verses in Scripture. The use of the title “elect” to describe Israel becomes very important when we venture into the New Testament because it clears up many theological, soteriological, and eschatological issues.

1. Seed of Israel His servant, you children of Jacob, His chosen ones! (1 Chr 16:13)
2. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people He has chosen as His own inheritance. (Ps 33:12)
3. Seed of Abraham His servant, you children of Jacob, His chosen ones! (Ps 105:6)
4. He brought out His people with joy, His chosen ones with gladness. (Ps 105:43)
5. For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, ​Israel for His special treasure.(Ps 135:4)
6. For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect… (Isa 45:4)
7. I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there. (Isa 65:9)
8. For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. (Isa 65:22)

The verses above demonstrate how God has specifically called Israel, Jacob, the Seed of Abraham His chosen. Thus the term “the chosen” or “my chosen” and “the elect” is a reference to ethnic Israel. This point is proven by Paul who, in a synagogue on the Sabbath day in Antioch, read from the Law and Prophets and then spoke to his fellow Jews: “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: ‘The God of this people Israel chose our fathers…’” (Acts 13:16, 17) Thus, the election of Israel was true in the Old Testament and the New Testament as well.
[h=2]The “Few Chosen” Are Israelites[/h]With the definition of “the elect/chosen” established, we are now ready to proceed to the teachings of Jesus Whom we must remember was Himself Jewish. In Matthew 22 Jesus, speaking with the Pharisees, compares the Kingdom of Heaven to a King who prepared a wedding feast for His Son. Those that were invited to the wedding feast were not interested in coming so the King sent His servants out calling everyone who would come. That the invited guests to the wedding were the Israelites is certain. Jesus Himself confirms this in His rebuke to the Pharisees: “And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 8:11) There are also many passages in the Old Testament that speak of the Messianic age in which the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be God’s special people (See for example: Isaiah 2, 4, 11, 60-66). Therefore, Jesus’ statement “For many are called, but few are chosen,” (Matt 22:14; see also Matt 20:16) must be interpreted in light of who are the chosen – that is the Jews! The chosen, elect (the Jews) were the ones to whom the promise of the Messianic Age was first given. However, when the bridegroom came they were not willing to come and therefore God the Father gave instruction for all (the many) to be called to the feast. Understanding who the elect are unlocks the passage for us. Knowing that the elect are the Jews completely rules out any Calvinistic interpretation of the passage. Note that both the called and chosen still needed salvation as indicated by the wedding garment and he who was found in the feast without a garment was cast out.

Sorry Calvin, God Elected Israel (Part 1 of 2) | DouglasHamp.com

 

[DP]

The Pre-Tribulational Harpazo was mentioned far before Darby and can be found in the scriptures. In fact, it wasn't until after studying the scriptures and having the Holy Spirit show me that the Church would be caught up before the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble that I heard of a man named Darby. The concept of the dispensation of the Church is not something made up, but found directly in God's word.

No it wasn't, because prior to Darby and the Irving mockery, the Christian Church was post-trib.

Nor is there ANY written Scripture declaring pre-trib linked with the Greek word harpazo ("caught up").

 

[DP]

Sorry Calvin, God Elected Israel (Part 1 of 2) | DouglasHamp.com

More doctrines of men's leaven that Jesus warned His servants against! Stick with The Bible, not men's traditions.

 

[Chuckt]

More doctrines of men's leaven that Jesus warned His servants against! Stick with The Bible, not men's traditions.

Ha.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

 

[DP]

Ha.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

All you've done is confirm my point about Biblical usage of the word 'elect', it applies to both chosen Israel and Christ's Church...

Eph 2:10-13
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Eph 3:6
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
KJV

Rom 10:12-13
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV




Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

So much for Calvinistic b.s.

 

[KohenMatt]

I don't believe there is a "rapture", so I'm prepared to be interrogated from now until the end of my life.

 

[popeye]

Rev. 20:5,6
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

These verses clearly states that only those are in the first resurrection will be priest and shall reign with him for 1000 years.
These verses also clearly state that this is the first resurrection.
These verses also clearly state that only those in the first resurrection shall escape the power of the second death.
I want to be in that first resurrection so I can I can be a priest and rule and reign with my Lord and escape the power of the second death.

Now twist those Scriptures again to try and prove your point.
You still have not provided Scripture to support that the tribulation Saints are those saved during the tribulation

You are wrong.
1 thes 4 says THE DEAD SHALL RISE FIRST,THEN WE THAT ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP..."

See that?

So your post trib deal is impossible,because rev 14 has jesus harvesting the earth DURING THE GT.

That makes a resurrection of the dead impossible AFTER THE HARVEST BY JESUS OF REV 14.

Your postrib assumptions are just flat wrong.

 

[Called4Christ]

...Ugh...I truly wish I could understand this whole pre-trib/post trib debate and "pick" which sounds more reasonable to me. The truth is, the more threads I read, the more confused I become. You are all very versed in scripture (no pun intended) and have pretty good reasonings for your beliefs.
I've tried going strictly to the scripture, I've prayed about it (for understanding), and I even bought a few books at a christian book store to understand the basics. Yet I still sit here, utterly confused.

I want to be able to recognize our Lord and the season of His arrival, and it saddens me that I can't seem to figure it out.

 

[popeye]

That being mostly so, because we have OT history to back that up, it's still important to understand the difference about the wrath during the trib vs. God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on the last day.

We are... appointed to suffer Satan's wrath for the tribulation. That's why we were shown in the Books of Daniel and in Revelation about the coming Antichrist making war upon the saints, and his given power over us for 42 months. That is not God's wrath, it's the devil's. God's wrath is what will end the trib and is not appointed upon us.

Then your double talk has the wrath part of your sales pitch as tribulation,

according to your logic satan is not connected to God's wrath,but the flying scorpions are from hell.

Just knew you would be interested in the God/satan plan.
BTW,none of your teachers will tell you that.

 

[popeye]

...Ugh...I truly wish I could understand this whole pre-trib/post trib debate and "pick" which sounds more reasonable to me. The truth is, the more threads I read, the more confused I become. You are all very versed in scripture (no pun intended) and have pretty good reasonings for your beliefs.
I've tried going strictly to the scripture, I've prayed about it (for understanding), and I even bought a few books at a christian book store to understand the basics. Yet I still sit here, utterly confused.

I want to be able to recognize our Lord and the season of His arrival, and it saddens me that I can't seem to figure it out.

There is only one who can not be deceived. That is Jesus. Stay close to him.

BTW,even the foolish virgins were watching with the wise for the arrival of the groom. (mat 25)

So,to purposefully throw out watching and waiting,is to be even worse than foolish.

 

[popeye]

No it wasn't, because prior to Darby and the Irving mockery, the Christian Church was post-trib.

Nor is there ANY written Scripture declaring pre-trib linked with the Greek word harpazo ("caught up").

Hmmm,you kick dead men that disagree with your doctrine,but your doctrine is ok due to dead catholics that believed like you?

You need to read that bible you accuse others of leaving off.

You are obsessed with dead men on both sides of the debate.

 

[Ropple]

There is no such thing as a rapture.

 

[kaylagrl]

There is no such thing as a rapture.

The Bible talks about being caught up with the Lord. Yes,there is such a thing as the rapture.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by DP

Based on that logic, it's like saying someone who speaks English reads simple phrases like 'after the tribulation' thus has no support for aligning with what our Lord Jesus Himself says:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

How would the Christian who seeks to follow what Jesus commanded us and taught be in good standing with Him by allowing just any interpretation of simple direct statements like that which He made? Should we also lie to the unbelievers that Jesus is not the only Way of Salvation too?

At some point in the Christian walk, one must determine whether to make a stand in Christ or not.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Ahem, can you read?

Your verse betrays your false assumptions.
Those saints are gathered BY ANGELS,NOT JESUS,FROM HEAVEN.

You just bolstered the pretrib doctrine and are oblivious to it.

 

[Ropple]

Read John 3: 13

 

[popeye]

The Pre-Tribulational Harpazo was mentioned far before Darby and can be found in the scriptures. In fact, it wasn't until after studying the scriptures and having the Holy Spirit show me that the Church would be caught up before the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble that I heard of a man named Darby. The concept of the dispensation of the Church is not something made up, but found directly in God's word.

He is obsessed with dead men on both sides of the debate.
He is oblivious to the fact that he AUTHENTICATES his doctrine on the beliefs of dead catholics that he says believed like him.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

I haven't lied about anything. That is your assumption. You have continued to avoid my question: who are those riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven?

Answer to your question is so easy! Who are these?

1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

Notice those are saints that have already died, not raptured.

Ahem,we will note that you think noone alive has reached heaven by the end of the GT?
rev 14;14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
here we have the earth reaped before your supposed 1st resurrection.

Your deal is busted.



Badly

 

[Ropple]

Revelation 12: 6 Will tell you where the church is going to be during the Tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

...Ugh...I truly wish I could understand this whole pre-trib/post trib debate and "pick" which sounds more reasonable to me. The truth is, the more threads I read, the more confused I become. You are all very versed in scripture (no pun intended) and have pretty good reasonings for your beliefs.
I've tried going strictly to the scripture, I've prayed about it (for understanding), and I even bought a few books at a christian book store to understand the basics. Yet I still sit here, utterly confused.

I want to be able to recognize our Lord and the season of His arrival, and it saddens me that I can't seem to figure it out.

Hello Called4Christ,

Allow me to present the following to you. Scripture demonstrates that the event of the gathering of the church found in 1 Thes.4:13-18 is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. In between these two events is the long prophesied "Day of the Lord" which is that time period where God's direct wrath will be poured out upon the earth, which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments listed in the book of Revelation.

Regarding this time of wrath scripture says the following:

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him." (1 Thes.5:9)

And

"For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. (1 Thes.1:10)

Scripture also states the following regarding those who have received Christ:

"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Now, taking all of the above into consideration, here is the wrath that must take place before Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Please read the entire plagues of wrath listed.

==================================================

1ST Seal/White Horse: The emergence of the antichrist who will make a seven year covenant with Israel and will set up the abomination in the holy place within the temple that will cause the desolation of Jerusalem. He will make war and conquer the great tribulation saints and be given authority over every nation, tribe, people and language. H will require everyone to worship his image and anyone who doesn’t will be put to death. He will require all inhabitants of the earth to receive his mark which without, no one will be able to buy or sell i.e. no one will be able to perform crediting or debiting to their bank accounts.

2nd Seal/Red Horse: Takes peace from the earth so that mankind slays one another. He's give a large sword which means that his campaign is world-wide. I don't believe that this will be restricted to just armies, but to people in general.

3rd Seal/Black Horse: World-wide famine. That the rider has a pair of scales demonstrates the need to accurately weigh of food in times of scarcity/famine. The mention of A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius demonstrates a day’s wages for a small amount of food. Again, this demonstrates scarcity of food and therefore, famine.

4th Seal/Pale Horse: Death and Hades are give power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, plague and wild beasts of the earth. The 4th is a culmination of the the previous seals and the result is a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth will die from those plagues mentioned. Based on 7 billion people, a fourth would equal 1.75 billion people.

Seals 5, 6 and 7: These do not appear to be plagues which produce any fatalities.

1st Trumpet: A third of the earth is burned up, a third of the trees. The underlying question is, if a third of the earth and trees are being burned up, how many fatalities will result from this? For there is no way that third of the earth and a third of the trees can be burned up without there also being fatalities involved. So this a large unknown number of fatalities.

2nd Trumpet: An asteroid or another object hits in one of the oceans resulting in a third of the creatures in the ocean being killed and a third of the ships are destroyed. The reason for their destruction will be due to the gigantic 1500 ft plus waves and the energy that will be dispersed throughout that entire body of water created by that object hitting in the ocean. How many people will be on those ships? Every city, town and community that is exposed to that body of water will be completely destroyed, not to mention all of the cities, towns and communities 50 to 100 miles inland. How many fatalities would that be? Again, this is an unknown large number of fatalities.

3rd Trumpet: An object like a torch falls on a third of the rivers and fresh drinking water, which contaminates a third of the water, the result being that many people will die from drinking the water. How many fatalities is "Many"? Again, a large unknown number of fatalities.

4th Trumpet: A third of the sun, moon and stars are struck so that they are darkened by a third. The result being that the earth will be missing a third of its normal light both during the day and night. There appear to be no fatalities associated with this trumpet. I personally believe that this trumpet is setting the stage for the following three trumpets which are referred to as woes.

5th Trumpet/1st Woe: A star/angel opens the Abyss and releases demonic beings that have tails and stings like scorpions who are not given power to kill the inhabitants of the earth, but only to torment them for 5 months with stings like that of a scorpion. There are no fatalities associated with this trumpet, but only torment. These demonic beings have a king over them who is the angel of the Abyss, which is that beast who comes up out of the Abyss, kills the two witnesses of chapter 11 and takes control of the antichrist and stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe: Four angels who have been bound at the great Euphrates River are released to kill a third of mankind. When they are released they immediately go and gather an army of 200 million demonic beings, I believe they gather them from the Abyss that will have been previously opened at the 5th trumpet. Unlike the 5th trumpet, their main purpose will be to kill a third of the inhabitants of the earth. With just the 4th seal and this 6th trumpet, the fatalities would be approx.4.5 billion people and that's not counting trumpets 1,2 and 3 or the bowl judgments. Are you now getting an idea of the severity of God's wrath?

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe: Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth. Rejoice you heavens and those who dwell in it. But WOE to the inhabitants of the earth, for the devil has gone down to you and is full of wrath. There are no fatalities mentioned here and no way to know how many there will be. With Satan and his angels no longer allowed in heaven and restricted to the earth, they will be able to focus all of their malice and evil upon the inhabitants of the earth.

1st Bowl: Ugly painful sores break out on those who have the mark of the beast. No fatalities are mentioned at this bowl judgment, only anguish because of the painful, ugly sores.

2nd Bowl: The world’s oceans are turned into literal blood. All of the creatures in the sea die.

3rd Bowl: All fresh water is turn to literal blood. No drinking water. And if God does it the same way as he did with Moses and the Nile, all of the bottled water in all of the warehouses will also be turned to blood. No drinking water! Also, because of the 2nd bowl, desalination will not be an option.

4th Bowl: The 4th angel pours out his bowl upon the sun and the sun will be give power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with fire and intense heat. Fatalities from this is unknown! Also, remember there is no drinking water to quench thirst from being scorched and seared with the heat which will have resulted from the previous bowl judgment.

5th Bowl: The 5th bowl is poured out throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.

6th Bowl: The great river Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east. And those spirits of demons go and gather the kings of the earth to Armageddon for that final battle where they will all be killed by the doublle-edged sword that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord, which is symbolic for the word of God.

7th Bowl: he seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” This completes completes God's wrath. The result of this judgment is the greatest earthquake to take place since mankind has been on the earth, which results in the cities of the nations collapsing and the mountains and the islands no longer being found, huge hail stones weighing 75 to 100 pounds each will fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible. How many fatalities will result from the earthquake and the 100 lb. hail stone's? Unknown. But, since the earthquake is said to cause the cities of the nations to collapse, this would demonstrate that the quake will be world-wide.

=====================================================


Now, all of that said: there are people that would have us believe that those who are in Christ, who have been forgiven for their sins, whom Jesus rescued from the coming wrath, and which scripture states that believer's are not appointed to suffer wrath and there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and they want us to believe that God, after he builds his church, is going to punish them along with the wicked upon the earth during the time of the seals, trumpets and bowls judgments mentioned above.

The church will be gathered by the Lord before the first seal of wrath is opened.

 

[posthuman]

There is no such thing as a rapture.

what's this, if it's not rapture:

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:17-18)

​

?

​

i've always thought it's just a question of order of events.