What parts of Torah can we still keep today?

[LaurenTM]

here is an interesting thought from disciplemike who has responded here and who represents the Hebrew Roots movement; it would seem that is also the movement the op belongs to, considering what she writes about law


this, is how he interprets Colossians 2:16. he does not agree with what it plainly states, but decides that Paul meant the opposite

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col 2:16

If you read in context, Shaul is telling the believers to not let people judge them because THEY ARE observing God's commandments, not the other way around. Back up to verse 8 and dig out the context.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:8 (KJV)

God's commandments are not "the philosophy of men", and "vain deceit" or "the rudiments of the world"

but rather be like Christ, "after Christ", meaning to obey the Father's commandments, just like He did!!!!

7/3/2016 post 22



just no disciplemike. just no. that is NOT what Paul was saying, but typical of the twisting your group engages in in order to justify the lifestyle you have chosen that really is not acceptable.

if it were acceptable, then Jesus would not have had to die for our sins

that thread is still running and you can find it titled 'so what about the 4th commandment?'

this poster joined 7/1/2016 so this is from his first offerings

 

[KohenMatt]

The op is really quite a revealing document

here is an excerpt:



so yeah...what parts of Torah can we keep today?

read the op again...I bet some of you have not read it all and are just feeding off of other posts and thinking this is not so bad

if you are a Christian, read the op...no no..read it...REALLY read it...and if you agree with it, then I question your acceptance of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ

if you don't agree with it, you may have a better understanding of what is really going on in this thread

there is no option to obey the law in the op

there is only if you do not obey the law, you are not saved

with regards to the bold print in red (which I did)...that is telling you that you do not believe in the God of the Bible if you are not 'torah observant'

the op is not some opinion up for discussion..she is TELLING believers that unless the go back to the law and have HER understanding, they are not saved[/COLOR]

I agree with some of the points in the OP, but many of the others are very short-sighted in their understanding of what Jesus actually did and the example He gave. She certainly takes things further than I would. Certainly if she saying you can't be saved unless you follow the law.

I think there are some clarifications that should be made though:

Those who try to use the law for salvation or justification's sake will fail. The law was never intended to save. If someone wanted to go that route, they would need to keep it perfectly. But no one can keep the entire Law perfectly. It's not even an option.

Once you have that foundation though, you can see what the law is good for. The commands of the Law show God's people right ways of living. (No, they aren't the only ways God gives, but they are ways, nonetheless.) There is wisdom in following individual laws. There are blessings in following individual laws. Many of these laws can be kept in physical realms quite easily. Many are difficult. Some are impossible. But no matter what the projected success rate of them are, that shouldn't stop God's people from observing them. Just like in the New Testament that if we can't perfectly keep Jesus' commands we shouldn't observe them.

 

[beta]

the thing is, and again because it has been said quite a number of times by several people, if someone wishes to observe Jewish feasts then go ahead.

but you have to ask the purpose of threads like this that condemn those who do not

scripture declares do NOT let yourself be judged by these things...yet that is what is going on here...people are judging others by what they do....which indicates a standard they have set and that is keeping 'some' of the law because you cannot keep it all

that's just really nonsense...ignore the scriptures stating don' be judged by these things and go ahead and judge everyone who disagrees with you

start a thread on how you prefer to keep Jewish customs/celebrations/only certain laws...whatever...but that is not the purpose ... the purpose is to declare a practice that is neither Jewish nor Christian...it would be Christian if that is their preference, but stating everyone else is following pagan practices reveals what is the actual thought behind the op



Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[SUP]a[/SUP] of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[SUP]b[/SUP] was put off when you were circumcised by[SUP]c[/SUP]Christ,

2having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[SUP]d[/SUP] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[SUP]e[/SUP]Freedom From Human Rules

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

How is it you don't know that the feasts are NOT jewish but are GOD's own holy Convocations Lev 23...likewise the Sabbath ?
If you are not prepared to keep holy what HE makes holy how do you expect to share eternity with Him in His Kingdom ? In case you did not know...WE must become holy as HE is holy to share in everything He has !

 

[LaurenTM]

disciplemike also believes the NT was orignally written in Hebrew despite OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary

post 91 from the what about the 4th commandment thread

Recent discoveries are finding a lot of the N.T. that was original in Hebrew. It whichever case, studying the early manuscripts in their own language brings a lot more than the 17th century English. Although I like English also. My regular reading Bible is ESV, but I do most of my study on software, with quick reference to word studies.

now, these Hebrew Roots/ Lawkeepers...whatever moniker of the month they go by, just decided to refuse what the evidence actually shows


here is a lengthy article ... but for the serious Bible student, it is something you should read if you are at all tempted to believe the NT was really written in Hebrew

HERE


[FONT=&quot]The literary evidence to the text of the New Testament is vastly more abundant than that to any other series of writings of like compass in the entire range of ancient letters. Of the sacred books of the Hebrew Bible there is no known copy antedating the 10th century AD. Of Homer there is no complete copy earlier than the 13th century. Of Herodotus there is no manuscript earlier than the 10th century. Of Vergil but one copy is earlier than the fourth century, and but a fragment of all Cicero's writings is even as old as this. Of the New Testament, however, we have two splendid manuscripts of the fourth century, at least ten of the fifth, twenty-five of the sixth and in all a total of more than four thousand copies in whole or in part of the Greek New Testament. To these copies of the text itself may be added the very important and even more ancient evidence of the versions of the New Testament in the Latin, Syriac, and Egyptian tongues, and the quotations and clear references to the New Testament readings found in the works of the early Church Fathers, as well as the inscriptions and monumental data in Syria, Asia Minor, Africa, Italy, and Greece, dating from the very age of the apostles and their immediate successors. It thus appears that the documents of the Christian faith are both so many and so widely scattered that these very facts more than any others have embarrassed the final determination of the text. Now however, the science of textual criticism has so far advanced and the textual problems of the Greek Testament have been so well traversed that one may read the Christian writings with an assurance approximating certainty.[/FONT]

 

[FreeNChrist]

How is it you don't know that the feasts are NOT jewish but are GOD's own holy Convocations Lev 23...likewise the Sabbath ?
If you are not prepared to keep holy what HE makes holy how do you expect to share eternity with Him in His Kingdom ? In case you did not know...WE must become holy as HE is holy to share in everything He has !

God alone is Holy. You're not God.

 

[Grace777x70]

Some within the Hebrew Roots movement also say that if we do not adhere to the dietary laws of the Old Covenant - then we are sinning by NOT "obeying the Lord".

In reality they are not obeying the faith and relying on Christ and what He has done for us. They do not "obey" the Father's commandments in the New Covenant as outlined in 1 John 3:23.

disciplemike in post #27 in the thread "what about the fourth commandment" says that we are not to eat pork, observe the birth or resurrection of the Lord and that we threw out the dietary laws. Here is the link:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...t-about-fourth-commandment-2.html#post2686877


This is definitely one of the last days deception and falling away from the faith as Paul talked about in 1 Tim 4:1-5. Paul calls the doctrine of abstaining from foods to be a doctrine of devils and they are seducing spirits.

This Law-keeping religion is anti-Christ in it's beliefs and we have been warned by Paul to stay away from this sort of thing. The modern day Judaizers that try to get Christians to desert Christ for the Law ( Gal.1:6 ) needs to be stood up against and I for one am grateful for all those that stand against this anti-Christ belief system.

Paul said that he did not stand for the Judaizers for even one hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain with them. Gal 2:5

Christians should be going on Hebrew forums to talk about Christ as the Messiah instead they come to Christian forums to try to get Christians to go back to the Law.

 

[jcha]

Well Kohenmatt I have to say I will tell you what Passover is according to scriptures I'd like to answer at well, if you don't mind. (And even if you do mind, too bad. I'm going to answer anyway.) The celebration of Passover is a festival Israel celebrated exodus from Egypt and the Israelites freedom from slavery to the Egyptians Exodus 12. And the Lord foretold this Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:. If your going to hold a different celebration that is fine I judge no man for any food or holiday but a true Passover the scriptures speak for themselves. What is yours is yours but what is Gods is Gods. Psalm 24:1 The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. jcha so you say when I celebrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus on Easter I blaspheme Him and His sacrifice? That is a yes or no question? Telling Him I love him and thank Him for it is blasphemy? Yes or no question.

I am not your judge.

Blasphemy:

• : great disrespect shown to God or to something holy
  
• : something said or done that is disrespectful to God or to something holy
  
  Deuteronomy 28:Blessings of Obedience…8"The LORD will command the blessing upon you in your barns and in all that you put your hand to, and He will bless you in the land which the LORD your God gives you. 9"The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the LORD your God and walk in His ways. 10"So all the peoples of the earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will be afraid of you.…

 

[LaurenTM]

KohenMatt;2770445]I agree with some of the points in the OP, but many of the others are very short-sighted in their understanding of what Jesus actually did and the example He gave. She certainly takes things further than I would. Certainly if she saying you can't be saved unless you follow the law.

she is copy/pasting the op from a site that states what I showed and illustrating that is her belief

read the op...it's plain, as I bolded in red, stating if you do not follow the law, you don't believe in the God of the Bible...although the term OT might have been more applicable since it appears the NT is just and addendum to the old to these folks

I think there are some clarifications that should be made though:

Those who try to use the law for salvation or justification's sake will fail. The law was never intended to save. If someone wanted to go that route, they would need to keep it perfectly. But no one can keep the entire Law perfectly. It's not even an option.

I think most of us here have been saying that over and over and over...ad nauseum and certainly in this thread as well

further, they state themselves they cannot physically keep the entire law ad if they were being logical about it with an attempt at honesty, that alone would indicate NO ONE can keep the law in the way it was intended and God Himself states that...it was only a FORESHADOW of Christ..it's as plain as the writing on the wall of King Belshazzar[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]

Once you have that foundation though, you can see what the law is good for. The commands of the Law show God's people right ways of living. (No, they aren't the only ways God gives, but they are ways, nonetheless.) There is wisdom in following individual laws. There are blessings in following individual laws. Many of these laws can be kept in physical realms quite easily. Many are difficult. Some are impossible. But no matter what the projected success rate of them are, that shouldn't stop God's people from observing them. Just like in the New Testament that if we can't perfectly keep Jesus' commands we shouldn't observe them

The law is good...we keep it anyway, right, ie not going out and sinning on purpose or thinking we can. A believer knows the law is good but also knows they cannot live it for salvation and they cannot earn salvation

here is another post from discipledave. this one is in a thread I started...post 44 tell me what you think about the line I bolded

Originally Posted by disciplemike

The Messiah did His part for sure. There is no hope without the redemptive work of Yeshua HaMashiach.

Here is the thing most people miss.
It is not one God telling us about His Holy Days in Leviticus 23, and then a completely different God going to the cross.
It is the same God! Hear, O Israel, YHVH our God is One.
The Holy Days in Leviticus 23 belong to the Messiah!
Think about that for a while.

 

[beta]

God alone is Holy. You're not God.

You have made it clear that you don't know scripture !

 

[LaurenTM]

How is it you don't know that the feasts are NOT jewish but are GOD's own holy Convocations Lev 23...likewise the Sabbath ?
If you are not prepared to keep holy what HE makes holy how do you expect to share eternity with Him in His Kingdom ? In case you did not know...WE must become holy as HE is holy to share in everything He has !

please read what Paul said to the Judaizers

he says the same to you

also, read Galatians and then we can recommend a good teacher to help you understand Romans, because Romans is foundational for your understanding of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

I am not impressed by your faux gasp of disbelief

honestly, do you folks not have an honest bone in your collective bodies?

You have made it clear that you don't know scripture !

that's so deep

you cannot even find the New Testament and do not understand the Old

you folks are lost in a whirlwind of your own confused teachings

 

[jsr1221]

Why are we so focused on the Torah when Jesus is the one that saved us? When Jesus is our Lord? When Jesus tells us to pick up the cross and follow Him? This is where our focus should be.

 

[FreeNChrist]

You have made it clear that you don't know scripture !

LOL. Oh, okay, since you said it, it must be true .....

 

[beta]

please read what Paul said to the Judaizers

he says the same to you

also, read Galatians and then we can recommend a good teacher to help you understand Romans, because Romans is foundational for your understanding of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

I am not impressed by your faux gasp of disbelief

honestly, do you folks not have an honest bone in your collective bodies?




that's so deep

you cannot even find the New Testament and do not understand the Old

you folks are lost in a whirlwind of your own confused teachings

And my teaching being ??? please tell ! this is our first encounter yet you know all about me ?
you are not that good !

 

[LaurenTM]

And my teaching being ??? please tell ! this is our first encounter yet you know all about me ?
you are not that good !

oy vey

hope that is Yiddish enough for you

 

[beta]

oy vey

hope that is Yiddish enough for you

why should that mean anything...I am not a Jew. Are you, since you use yiddish speak ?

 

[KohenMatt]

Why are we so focused on the Torah when Jesus is the one that saved us? When Jesus is our Lord? When Jesus tells us to pick up the cross and follow Him? This is where our focus should be.

While Jesus is our Lord and the one who saved us and worthy of our utmost focus, it's also valuable to look at all of Scripture to see what we can learn from it and how it should shape our lives.

 

[disciplemike]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer 1 Timothy 4:1-5

"sanctified by the word of God".
I wonder what that means?

 

[UnderGrace]

"sanctified by the word of God".
I wonder what that means?

Well I wish I knew that is why I am asking you, why you feel that pork and the other meats are still a problem for believers?

You should be able to elaborate further I would think.

I am fine with not wanting to eat certain foods, since there is research that shows that pork is not the healthiest meat along with shrimp etc., however do you see it as sinful as well, is this why you pointed out sanctified?

 

[disciplemike]

Well I wish I knew that is why I am asking you, why you feel that pork and the other meats are still a problem for believers?

You should be able to elaborate further I would think.

I am fine with not wanting to eat certain foods, since there is research that shows that pork is not the healthiest meat along with shrimp etc., however do you see it as sinful as well, is this why you pointed out sanctified?

He didn't just throw that in to sound churchy.
"sanctified by the word of God".
God set apart what is food (clean animals) and what is not food (oink, oink, scavengers, etc) in Leviticus 11.
That is what this means.

 

[Grace777x70]

He didn't just throw that in to sound churchy.
"sanctified by the word of God".
God set apart what is food (clean animals) and what is not food (oink, oink, scavengers, etc) in Leviticus 11.
That is what this means.

Sanctified by the word of God means that it is Jesus' sacrifice that has sanctified all foods. He is the living word of God. You always leave out Jesus in your law-keeping. No one is going to fall for this anti-Christ religion that you are espousing here.

All foods are sanctified by Jesus and by prayer. Giving thanks for the food and believing in the goodness of God to supply all things for us.

Mark 7:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And He *said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Christians go on Hebrew forums to talk about the Messiah - you come here to a Christian forum to try to get Christians to desert Christ for the Law. Gal 1:6