Baptism's role in salvation/gospel? if there is any.

[garee]

Baptism (water) does not have its foundation in the new testament that ceremony began long before then.


Water baptism with water symbolizing the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirt not seen is a old testament ceremonial law that is still infect .It is used to introduce a new priest after the order of Levi as one who has a desire to go out and preach the gospel or other priestly duties Moses who represented the Lord not seen He began the ceremonial work that remains in effect..

Lev 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

The Son of man whole was subject to that ceremonial puryifying law before he began his priesthood to symbolize our high priest not seen. Being from the tribe of Judah was officiated by John from the tribe of Levi. Out of the Son of man coming from the tribe of Judah the question arose

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. Joh 3:25

Then Christ who had ceremonially become a Levite could also baptize those who also had a desire to be part of the Kingdom of priest. The Son of man was then sent in the wilderness for forty days typified as a scapegoat to be tried . He passed the test and as it is written the tempter fled

 

[hornetguy]

To Bible is clear in its teachings that all Christians are expected to be baptized in water. On the other hand, the New Testament makes it equally clear that man is saved prior to receiving water baptism. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).

Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for them; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (Acts 10:43). Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Yep. Well said. This is why I say it is not a part of being saved, but it is still essential... "mandatory", if you will.

 

[John146]

1 Corinthians 1515 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Here's the gospel of Jesus Christ. Notice, there is no mention of water baptism. One can trust in the gospel of Christ, never get baptized, and is just as saved as the believer who did get baptized.

 

[hornetguy]

1 Corinthians 1515 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Here's the gospel of Jesus Christ. Notice, there is no mention of water baptism. One can trust in the gospel of Christ, never get baptized, and is just as saved as the believer who did get baptized.

Then why bother with baptism at all? This is a prime example of cherry-picking a verse you like because it supports YOUR theory...

This only works if you totally ignore all the other commands, examples, and even historical examples that baptism was necessary.

 

[shrume]

Yep. Well said. This is why I say it is not a part of being saved, but it is still essential... "mandatory", if you will.

You contradict yourself. If water baptism is mandatory, then it is certainly part of being saved.

 

[Enow]

this is where i stop. i open up my king james bible by the grace of God i have one and its got mark 16:16.
i dont believe that gospel of mark ends so abruptly it doesnt make any sense. i stick with the king james bible. in these end times they are constantly changing the bible. be on the look out for that.
there is evidence those verses are there from ancient times. even in 200s people quoted it.

they over critique it. its one sign of the end times. higher textual criticism. run from it.

brother Nehemiah got more information ask him

From post #22

"Mark 16:[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Since it is by not believing that a sinner is damned, then I have to look at that baptism as referring to the baptism of the Holy Ghost; not water baptism, since by believing in Him is how one is baptized by the Holy Ghost from the Father at their salvation in Jesus's name."

 

[shrume]

Then why bother with baptism at all?

Very good question. While there is certainly no harm in getting water baptized, and indeed some people are very blessed in getting water baptized, it is not necessary for salvation. Eph 4:4 says there is one baptism, and that is baptism in the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

There is absolutely no reason to doubt that a person is saved if he has not been water baptized.

 

[shrume]

From post #22

"Mark 16:[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Since it is by not believing that a sinner is damned, then I have to look at that baptism as referring to the baptism of the Holy Ghost; not water baptism, since by believing in Him is how one is baptized by the Holy Ghost from the Father at their salvation in Jesus's name."

How about that, Enow... We agree on something.

 

[hornetguy]

You contradict yourself. If water baptism is mandatory, then it is certainly part of being saved.

Call it what you will.... it's mandatory in the sense that we are commanded to do it. But, it is not a "work" that we do in order to be qualified for salvation.

Cutting off a man's foreskin did not make him a Jew. But there were NO male Jews that didn't have their foreskin removed. It was their part in accepting the covenant. It was an outward proof that they had accepted the free gift of the old covenant. It was mandatory, but it was not what MADE them a Jew. If a man said, "Yes, Lord, I accept your covenant, I want to be a Jew.... but I'm not gonna do that circumcision thing, ok?" Do you think God would have considered him a Jew? If we are unwilling to do the very first thing that is commanded of us, what kind of commitment have we made? What kind of life change have we made?

It's difficult to explain to people that want to see things as black and white.... I imagine those people have difficulty in understanding how Jesus could be 100% God, and 100% man at the same time.. Some things just don't fit in our human understanding.

 

[shrume]

Call it what you will.... it's mandatory in the sense that we are commanded to do it. But, it is not a "work" that we do in order to be qualified for salvation.

Cutting off a man's foreskin did not make him a Jew. But there were NO male Jews that didn't have their foreskin removed. It was their part in accepting the covenant. It was an outward proof that they had accepted the free gift of the old covenant. It was mandatory, but it was not what MADE them a Jew. If a man said, "Yes, Lord, I accept your covenant, I want to be a Jew.... but I'm not gonna do that circumcision thing, ok?" Do you think God would have considered him a Jew? If we are unwilling to do the very first thing that is commanded of us, what kind of commitment have we made? What kind of life change have we made?

It's difficult to explain to people that want to see things as black and white....

This is a black and white issue. Either water baptism is required or it's not.

Based on my understanding of the Bible, I do not believe that it is.

I imagine those people have difficulty in understanding how Jesus could be 100% God, and 100% man at the same time.. Some things just don't fit in our human understanding.

That's another issue entirely.

 

[garee]

Then why bother with baptism at all? This is a prime example of cherry-picking a verse you like because it supports YOUR theory...

This only works if you totally ignore all the other commands, examples, and even historical examples that baptism was necessary.

Water baptism a ceremonial law. It finds its foundation in the old testament when a new priest would enter the priesthood. It's what the question was in respect to.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.Joh 3:25

How could a person from the tribe of Judah baptize those who also had a desire to be a member of the kingdom of priest?

John from the tribe of Levi baptized Christ making the Son of man an officiator also.

 

[hornetguy]

This is a black and white issue. Either water baptism is required or it's not.

Based on my understanding of the Bible, I do not believe that it is.


That's another issue entirely.

Oh, good grief.... of COURSE it's another issue.... but it's an issue that is difficult for our human minds to reconcile, just like baptism being required, but not what "saves" us is. I was simply using it as an illustration to show that the baptism issue is not exactly black and white.... just like the issue of Jesus is not exactly black and white...

Baptism itself does not save us. Jesus' sacrifice and our acceptance of Jesus as our savior is what saves us. But, we MUST be baptized. It is commanded of us, and everyone did it, up until Martin Luther. It is a PART of our salvation.

THAT is why it is not "black and white" as you want to claim. Just like Jesus being 100% man, or 100% God is not "black and white"

 

[Zi]

People say they love God, are looking forward to Heaven but will cut out of doing anything they can excuse. If it's a chore then it's not in love and neither are you.

 

[hornetguy]

People say they love God, are looking forward to Heaven but will cut out of doing anything they can excuse. If it's a chore then it's not in love and neither are you.

Exactly. That is too true...

 

[Magenta]

Baptism (water) does not have its foundation in the new testament that ceremony began long before then.

Water baptism with water symbolizing the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirt not seen is a old testament ceremonial law that is still infect .It is used to introduce a new priest after the order of Levi as one who has a desire to go out and preach the gospel or other priestly duties Moses who represented the Lord not seen He began the ceremonial work that remains in effect..

Lev 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

The Son of man whole was subject to that ceremonial puryifying law before he began his priesthood to symbolize our high priest not seen. Being from the tribe of Judah was officiated by John from the tribe of Levi. Out of the Son of man coming from the tribe of Judah the question arose

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. Joh 3:25

Then Christ who had ceremonially become a Levite could also baptize those who also had a desire to be part of the Kingdom of priest. The Son of man was then sent in the wilderness for forty days typified as a scapegoat to be tried . He passed the test and as it is written the tempter fled

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire

 

[Nehemiah6]

You contradict yourself. If water baptism is mandatory, then it is certainly part of being saved.

Not necessarily. There is such a thing as "sanctification" after salvation, and baptism is the first step of obedience and sanctification. However, because in the eyes of the Lord it was so essential for sanctification, He linked believing and baptism very closely (almost inseparable). That is also why Paul and Silas baptized the Phillipian keeper of the prison and his household after midnight (Acts 16:33). There is a lesson in that incident.

Had Christians in succeeding ages followed the New Testament pattern, only believers would have been baptized, and that too immediately after conversion. Once the false teaching of baptismal regeneration took hold, then babies began to be baptized, and the meaning of symbolic death, burial, and resurrection was virtually destroyed. Not only that, but the Reformers also did not revert to the New Testament pattern, and persecuted the Anabaptists and Baptists because they refused to have their babies baptized.

 

[PJW]

1 Corinthians 1515 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Here's the gospel of Jesus Christ. Notice, there is no mention of water baptism. One can trust in the gospel of Christ, never get baptized, and is just as saved as the believer who did get baptized.

The devils believe, and tremble.
That scrip' doesn't mention repentance, receiving the Holy Ghost, or rebirth either, but are they not all part and parcel of salvation?
By inferring that because these things are not "the gospel", you entice others not to avail themselves of them.

 

[PJW]

From post #22

"Mark 16:[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Since it is by not believing that a sinner is damned, then I have to look at that baptism as referring to the baptism of the Holy Ghost; not water baptism, since by believing in Him is how one is baptized by the Holy Ghost from the Father at their salvation in Jesus's name."

If they believe, they will get baptized.

 

[PJW]

This is a black and white issue. Either water baptism is required or it's not.

Based on my understanding of the Bible, I do not believe that it is..

Hi shrume,
Water baptism IS our crucifixion with Christ. Our burial with Him and our resurrection with Him ...to walk in newness of life.

What other scripture describes the death of the old man and the rebirth of the new man?

BTW, according to Heb 6:2 there is more than one type of baptism.
Water baptism, Spirit baptism, baptism of fire, baptism into Moses and the sea, baptism that Jesus said He was yet tp partake of, and I think there is one I've forgotten.
Paul may have writing of "one" baptism that "we" do, as opposed to the baptisms Jesus does.

 

[fredoheaven]

Oh, good grief.... of COURSE it's another issue.... but it's an issue that is difficult for our human minds to reconcile, just like baptism being required, but not what "saves" us is. I was simply using it as an illustration to show that the baptism issue is not exactly black and white.... just like the issue of Jesus is not exactly black and white...

Baptism itself does not save us. Jesus' sacrifice and our acceptance of Jesus as our savior is what saves us. But, we MUST be baptized. It is commanded of us, and everyone did it, up until Martin Luther. It is a PART of our salvation.

THAT is why it is not "black and white" as you want to claim. Just like Jesus being 100% man, or 100% God is not "black and white"

Water Baptism is a post salvation issue after being saved. Jesus said "if you love me keep my commanments" so we are constrain because of love. Is it commanded? Yes. Matthew 28.19