Baptism's role in salvation/gospel? if there is any.

[Jackson123]

I believe baptism not mandatory for salvation, In the last judgement Jesus not asking have you been baptized?

Jesus inform us, that love is mandatory for salvation, not ritual

Jesus Himself save before baptism.

According to Jesus This is mandatory for salvation
matt 25


34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

there is no statement you save because you have been baptized

 

[OneFaith]

Christ sought us not us seeking Him.

Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

“He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.” Hebrews 11:6

“First seek the counsel of the Lord.” 1 Kings 22:5


“But IF you seek the Lord your God you will find Him IF you seek with all your heart and with all your soul.” Deuteronomy 4:29


“You God are my God, I earnestly seek You.” Psalms 63:1


“...pardon everyone who sets their heart on seeking God.” 2 Chronicles 30:18-20


“The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.” Psalms 14:2


“Whenever God slew them, they would seek Him.” Psalms 78:34


“God did this so that they would seek Him.” Acts 17:27,28

 

[Donmech]

You keep using this scripture to advance your belief system.... incorrectly.

That whole passage is about believers who were arguing over who is greater than the other, by virtue of who baptized them. Paul is NOT minimizing baptism, he is simply saying that I wasn't sent to see how many people I could physically baptize... I was sent to teach the gospel... and it doesn't matter who baptizes you.

You are taking this passage completely out of context, to try to "prove" your point. If baptism was not important to Paul, why did he immediately get up and get baptized as soon as God restored his sight? After 3 days with no food, he saw the urgency in being baptized even before eating?

This is the very definition of eisigesis....

I understand the context, however, the text also helps us to understand that baptism, important as it is, must not be included as a part of the saving grace of the gospel. The gospel is what saves, Staying in context, cant you see that even though it didn't matter who baptized who, baptism wasn't the important thing, its the gospel. What people tend to do is add baptism as a an equal part of the gospel when this portion of scripture separates it. It doesn't matter why its separated, as you stated to settle an argument. The point is that baptism is not part of the gospel.
Lets just get down where the rubber meets the road.
Is baptism a part of the gospel?

Is it required for salvation?


Should a saved person be baptized?


I didn't say baptism wasn't important as you keep saying, all what I'm saying is when people try to add baptism to the gospel they are changing it to another gospel; Gal 1:8 But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Thank you Sir

 

[DJ2]

If the narrative of trust only regeneration is correct, if the faith alone sects are right, if forgiveness of sins is granted at some point before baptism what is the purpose of the wording of such verses as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1st Peter 3:21 etc?

If baptism is simply an act of obedience after the forgiveness of sins why such diction as:

"repent and be baptized so that your sins are forgiven"
"whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"
"what are you waiting for, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins"
"corresponding to that, baptism now saves you"

These verses are not conveying the message of baptism's role as a ritual of obedience after the forgiveness of sins. They are worded in such a way as to connect baptism as the moment of forgiveness of sins for the believer.

If Luke, Mark and Peter wanted to label baptism as something to be done after the forgiveness of sins they could have easily done so with the proper wording. It is the faith alone sects that are forcing the trust only regeneration theology.

 

[Rokurac]

Baptism is not much to ask of us. I could get dunked in water daily.

I feel like its a small thing to do for God, and as most have said we should go back to the bible method of baptizing right after conversion.

 

[Donmech]

If the narrative of trust only regeneration is correct, if the faith alone sects are right, if forgiveness of sins is granted at some point before baptism what is the purpose of the wording of such verses as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1st Peter 3:21 etc?

If baptism is simply an act of obedience after the forgiveness of sins why such diction as:

"repent and be baptized so that your sins are forgiven"
"whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"
"what are you waiting for, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins"
"corresponding to that, baptism now saves you"

These verses are not conveying the message of baptism's role as a ritual of obedience after the forgiveness of sins. They are worded in such a way as to connect baptism as the moment of forgiveness of sins for the believer.

If Luke, Mark and Peter wanted to label baptism as something to be done after the forgiveness of sins they could have easily done so with the proper wording. It is the faith alone sects that are forcing the trust only regeneration theology.

Are you saying that baptism plays a role in the saving grace of the Gospel? Because if that is your position you don't agree with Jesus Christ or Paul.

Paul plainly states that Jesus Christ said baptism was not a part of the Gospel, look at 1 Cor. 1:17, For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: This clearly removes baptism from the gospel. I understand the context going on here, however, that does not diminish the valuable insight given to the purpose and place of baptism, and according to Jesus, who sent Paul not to baptize but preach the gospel, baptism has a definite role in the life of a born again Christian but in no way are we to add it to the GOSPEL! GAL. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
A very grave warning to those who would change God's way of salvation, adding baptism does just that.

 

[Jackson123]

If the narrative of trust only regeneration is correct, if the faith alone sects are right, if forgiveness of sins is granted at some point before baptism what is the purpose of the wording of such verses as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1st Peter 3:21 etc?

If baptism is simply an act of obedience after the forgiveness of sins why such diction as:

"repent and be baptized so that your sins are forgiven"
"whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"
"what are you waiting for, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins"
"corresponding to that, baptism now saves you"

These verses are not conveying the message of baptism's role as a ritual of obedience after the forgiveness of sins. They are worded in such a way as to connect baptism as the moment of forgiveness of sins for the believer.

If Luke, Mark and Peter wanted to label baptism as something to be done after the forgiveness of sins they could have easily done so with the proper wording. It is the faith alone sects that are forcing the trust only regeneration theology.

baptized in to Christ will save you. Baptized in to water is only symbol.

I believe the thief on the cross, baptized in to Christ, but not water, that is why he is save.

repent is a sign for baptized in to Christ

 

[oldethennew]

if 'anyone' tries to 'down-play' the order of Baptism in their calling,
then, there will be consequences that they will truly 'regret'.,.

 

[shadowPal07]

baptized in to Christ will save you. Baptized in to water is only symbol.

I believe the thief on the cross, baptized in to Christ, but not water, that is why he is save.

repent is a sign for baptized in to Christ

While Jesus was on the earth He had the right, ability, authority to forgive sins.
Jesus was the sacrificial “Lamb of God”
& at the time that He forgave the thief on the cross,
the OLD Testament was still in effect
because Christ had not yet died.

At the time that Jesus forgave the thief, the OLD testament was still in effect.

Jesus did not give the great commission to the apostles to BAPTIZE
in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost
until AFTER His death/burial/& resurrection.

The thief died BEFORE Christ gave the great commission to baptize in Mk. 16:16.

The thief died under the OLD testament.

Christ gave the great commission to the apostles,
just prior to His assention to the clouds {Acts 1}
and under the NEW testament for which He shed His blood
.
It was CHRIST who would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT is NOT a command we can obey.

We can NOT baptize others in the HS,
but we CAN obey and baptize others in WATER,
so LOGIC shows,
and the eunuch showed,
that WATER baptism is the command we OBEY
.


Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain… WATER:….
and the eunuch said, See, here is WATER;… what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED. [v. 38]
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down …
both INTO the WATER,……
both PHILIP and the eunuch;
and he BAPTIZED him.[V.39]
And when they were come….
up OUT OF the WATER….
The eunuch REJOICES AFTER his WATER baptism.

Holy Spirit is never mentioned…only water baptism.

 

[DJ2]

baptized in to Christ will save you. Baptized in to water is only symbol.

I believe the thief on the cross, baptized in to Christ, but not water, that is why he is save.

repent is a sign for baptized in to Christ

Why do you assume that the thief on the cross was not baptized?

 

[Jackson123]

1 While Jesus was on the earth He had the right, ability, authority to forgive sins.
Jesus was the sacrificial “Lamb of God”
& at the time that He forgave the thief on the cross,
the OLD Testament was still in effect
because Christ had not yet died.

At the time that Jesus forgave the thief, the OLD testament was still in effect.

Jesus did not give the great commission to the apostles to BAPTIZE
in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost
until AFTER His death/burial/& resurrection.

The thief died BEFORE Christ gave the great commission to baptize in Mk. 16:16.


2. Baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT is NOT a command we can obey.

We can NOT baptize others in the HS,
but we CAN obey and baptize others in WATER,
so LOGIC shows,
and the eunuch showed,
that WATER baptism is the command we OBEY
.


Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain… WATER:….
and the eunuch said, See, here is WATER;… what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED. [v. 38]
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down …
both INTO the WATER,……
both PHILIP and the eunuch;
and he BAPTIZED him.[V.39]
And when they were come….
up OUT OF the WATER….
The eunuch REJOICES AFTER his WATER baptism.

Holy Spirit is never mentioned…only water baptism.

1. Baptism happen before Jesus die, John the baptized doing baptism before Jesus die

2. Why you say baptism in Holy Spirit not command, is that because you do not believe in what Jesus command in matt 28?

matt 28

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[Jackson123]

Why do you assume that the thief on the cross was not baptized?

I assume the thief was baptized in to Christ, but not water.

 

[shadowPal07]

1. Baptism happen before Jesus die, John the baptized doing baptism before Jesus die

2. Why you say baptism in Holy Spirit not command, is that because you do not believe in what Jesus command in matt 28?

matt 28

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

1} John's baptism was not the command Christ

Yes, John baptized was "unto REPENTANCE" (Matthew 13:11)
but not in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
as CHRIST commanded. (Matthew 28:19)

2} It was CHRIST who would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT is NOT a command for us to OBEY.
WE can not baptize OTHERS in the Holy Spirit....but we CAN obey and baptize others in WATER
and so LOGIC shows, and the Eunuch's baptism shows that WATER baptism IS the baptism we can OBEY regarding Christ's command to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The EUNUCH's baptism:
Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they cameunto a certain… WATER:…. a
nd theeunuch said, See, here isWATER;…
what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED. [v. 38]
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and theywent down ….
both INTO the WATER,……
both PHILIP and the eunuch;
and heBAPTIZED him.[V.39]
And when they were come….
up OUT OF the WATER….
The eunuch REJOICED AFTER his WATER BAPTISM

The HOLY SPIRIT "baptism" is not ever mentioned.....only WATER baptism.

I do believe that the HOLY SPIRIT does indwell every obedient Christian, as does the Father AND the Son.

1co3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of Goddwelleth in you

Just some things to ponder....have a blessed day

 

[shadowPal07]

baptized in to Christ will save you. Baptized in to water is only symbol.

I believe the thief on the cross, baptized in to Christ, but not water, that is why he is save.

repent is a sign for baptized in to Christ

It IS possible that the thief was baptized by JOHN's baptism...unto repentance. {Matthew 3:11}
THIS we are not told.

What we can assume is that the thief KNEW who Jesus was and KNEW that Jesus was to come into His kingdom.

Obviously Christ knew who the thief was and notice that Christ told THAT thief that HE would be with Christ in paradise.....but He did NOT say it to the other criminal. {Luke 23: 42-43}

Christ did NOT command baptism, in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, until AFTER His death/burial/resurrection, and just before He ascended back into heaven from whence He came. {Matthew 28:19...Acts 1}

Yes, it is possible, the thief was baptized unto John's baptism.....unto repentance.
BEFORE Christ's command.

Just some things to think about.....have a blessed day

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, it is possible, the thief was baptized unto John's baptism.....unto repentance.
BEFORE Christ's command.

If this were really true, he would not have been hanging on that cross, but would have been gathered with the disciples. John preached repentance, which meant turning away from his evil deeds and making restitution where possible (which did not happen). In any event for him water baptism was not an option.

 

[Jackson123]

1} John's baptism was not the command Christ

Yes, John baptized was "unto REPENTANCE" (Matthew 13:11)
but not in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
as CHRIST commanded. (Matthew 28:19)

2} It was CHRIST who would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT is NOT a command for us to OBEY.
WE can not baptize OTHERS in the Holy Spirit....but we CAN obey and baptize others in WATER
and so LOGIC shows, and the Eunuch's baptism shows that WATER baptism IS the baptism we can OBEY regarding Christ's command to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The EUNUCH's baptism:
Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they cameunto a certain… WATER:…. a
nd theeunuch said, See, here isWATER;…
what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED. [v. 38]
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and theywent down ….
both INTO the WATER,……
both PHILIP and the eunuch;
and heBAPTIZED him.[V.39]
And when they were come….
up OUT OF the WATER….
The eunuch REJOICED AFTER his WATER BAPTISM

The HOLY SPIRIT "baptism" is not ever mentioned.....only WATER baptism.

I do believe that the HOLY SPIRIT does indwell every obedient Christian, as does the Father AND the Son.

1co3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of Goddwelleth in you

Just some things to ponder....have a blessed day

1. I believe God command John to baptized, John work for God

2. Read matt 28 again

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


Let me repeat one more time

verse 19 Jesus command His desciple to baptize in the name of ...... and Holy Spirit.

why you keep saying Jesus not command apostle to baptized in to Holy Spirit

do you accused Matthew liar?

 

[Jackson123]

It IS possible that the thief was baptized by JOHN's baptism...unto repentance. {Matthew 3:11}
THIS we are not told.

What we can assume is that the thief KNEW who Jesus was and KNEW that Jesus was to come into His kingdom.

Obviously Christ knew who the thief was and notice that Christ told THAT thief that HE would be with Christ in paradise.....but He did NOT say it to the other criminal. {Luke 23: 42-43}

Christ did NOT command baptism, in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, until AFTER His death/burial/resurrection, and just before He ascended back into heaven from whence He came. {Matthew 28:19...Acts 1}

Yes, it is possible, the thief was baptized unto John's baptism.....unto repentance.
BEFORE Christ's command.

Just some things to think about.....have a blessed day

Don't you say Jesus not command John to baptized?

 

[DJ2]

If this were really true, he would not have been hanging on that cross, but would have been gathered with the disciples. John preached repentance, which meant turning away from his evil deeds and making restitution where possible (which did not happen). In any event for him water baptism was not an option.

Johns' baptism was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4). To use the assumption that the thief on the cross was not baptized as proof text that baptism is not the point of remission of sins is weak.

The thief on the cross could have easily been baptized for the forgiveness of sins years before committing his crime and fell into a life of crime later. He may have even been on the cross for crimes committed before his remission of sins.

Regardless, the use of the thief on the cross is but an attempt to find a loophole in the fact that baptism is the point of our forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins does not happen at some unknown point before baptism but at baptism itself.

Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized so that your sins may be forgiven"
Acts 22"16 "what are you waiting for, arise and be baptized washing away your sins"
1st Peter 3:21 "baptism which is like that water now saves you"

There is a point in our lives that we go from unforgiven to forgiven of our sins, that point is baptism. It is not some unknown point during our study of the scriptures or after repeating a sinners prayer but baptism.

 

[DJ2]

Are you saying that baptism plays a role in the saving grace of the Gospel? Because if that is your position you don't agree with Jesus Christ or Paul.

Paul plainly states that Jesus Christ said baptism was not a part of the Gospel, look at 1 Cor. 1:17, For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: This clearly removes baptism from the gospel. I understand the context going on here, however, that does not diminish the valuable insight given to the purpose and place of baptism, and according to Jesus, who sent Paul not to baptize but preach the gospel, baptism has a definite role in the life of a born again Christian but in no way are we to add it to the GOSPEL! GAL. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
A very grave warning to those who would change God's way of salvation, adding baptism does just that.

baptism has a definite role in the life of a born again Christian but in no way are we to add it to the GOSPEL

Baptism most certainly has a place in the gospel, that place is the point of remission of sins. No one has ever been sent out to preach baptism, that would be putting the cart before the horse. We are sent out to preach the Good News of Jesus Christ, those who accept the message are to be baptized so that their sins will be forgiven (Acts 2:38). This is the Great Commission.

A very grave warning to those who would change God's way of salvation. Taking away the point of forgiveness of sins does just that.

 

[Jackson123]

Johns' baptism was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4). To use the assumption that the thief on the cross was not baptized as proof text that baptism is not the point of remission of sins is weak.

The thief on the cross could have easily been baptized for the forgiveness of sins years before committing his crime and fell into a life of crime later. He may have even been on the cross for crimes committed before his remission of sins.

Regardless, the use of the thief on the cross is but an attempt to find a loophole in the fact that baptism is the point of our forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins does not happen at some unknown point before baptism but at baptism itself.

Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized so that your sins may be forgiven"
Acts 22"16 "what are you waiting for, arise and be baptized washing away your sins"
1st Peter 3:21 "baptism which is like that water now saves you"

There is a point in our lives that we go from unforgiven to forgiven of our sins, that point is baptism. It is not some unknown point during our study of the scriptures or after repeating a sinners prayer but baptism.

I think this is a speculation. Bible not mention the thief ever did water baptism before, if so he must john follower, and some of apostle was john follower, so they must know each other by name.