Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

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Jan 6, 2018
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(i haven't been following this thread)

you need to keep reading.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:4-7)

see Who is doing these things, and for whose glory?
You need to first read what we are discussing. What does spiritually "dead" mean?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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That's a deep subject theologically. Some believe slightly different things on it. I think a good place to start is with the verse p4 gave for us to consider. Jesus expected Nicodemus, being a teacher, to know that a man must be born from above. He wondered at how a teacher did not understand this.

I wish so badly I could stay and talk with you guys. I always have to leave when I don't want to! But p4 can give you more verses that will show there WERE men in the OT who spoke by the Spirit in them.

Hope to talk with you more later. I have enjoyed meeting you.
One thing I have been taught is to see these things: No one in the flesh can please God, Romans 8:8. We have people in the OT who were pleasing to God, they had fellowship with God, a relationship with God, hatred for sin, love for God, no longer at enmity with God, they had love for the saints, sought after God, loved his Word, spoke of being saved in many situations as we do (Psalms) &c. All these point to regeneration, no man does these things, no man loves God &c until regenerate. The truth none in the flesh (lost) can be pleasing to God shines a light on OT saints who were. God saved them, they were born from above and are written examples for us to see, and to take comfort in these Scriptures.

This is also why I see Cornelius, Acts 10, as regenerate and then later coming to full conversion once he heard the Gospel from Peter. :)
 
Dec 28, 2016
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(i haven't been following this thread)

you need to keep reading.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:4-7)

see Who is doing these things, and for whose glory?
Hes he’s taken the Bible and broken it into two books instead of having one harmonious book. He says the OT saints were saved, but unregenerate. Sad. So, so sad. :(
 
Dec 28, 2016
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One thing I have been taught is to see these things: No one in the flesh can please God, Romans 8:8. We have people in the OT who were pleasing to God, they had fellowship with God, a relationship with God, hatred for sin, love for God, no longer at enmity with God, they had love for the saints, sought after God, loved his Word, spoke of being saved in many situations as we do (Psalms) &c. All these point to regeneration, no man does these things, no man loves God &c until regenerate. The truth none in the flesh (lost) can be pleasing to God shines a light on OT saints who were. God saved them, they were born from above and are written examples for us to see, and to take comfort in these Scriptures.

This is also why I see Cornelius, Acts 10, as regenerate and then later coming to full conversion once he heard the Gospel from Peter. :)
Look at Hebrews 11. All those mentioned, their faith was what the writer wrote about. No one is justified w/o having faith. No is is justified w/o being saved. No one is saved w/o being regenerated. Those ppl in Hebrews 11 were OT saints, too.

He seeks to rip God’s word to doll rags.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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That's a deep subject theologically. Some believe slightly different things on it. I think a good place to start is with the verse p4 gave for us to consider. Jesus expected Nicodemus, being a teacher, to know that a man must be born from above. He wondered at how a teacher did not understand this.

I wish so badly I could stay and talk with you guys. I always have to leave when I don't want to! But p4 can give you more verses that will show there WERE men in the OT who spoke by the Spirit in them.

Hope to talk with you more later. I have enjoyed meeting you.
Notice, Jesus didn't say to Nicodemus that he didn't understand the OT:

Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
John 3:10*-‬12 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.10-12.NLT
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
What I am saying is in line with Scripture. This is the condition of a person before being born again :
I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
Romans 7:21*-‬25 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/rom.7.21-25.NLT
Paul was speaking post salvation, not pre.. Paul had no capacity to know what was good pre salvation.

You do not know, or have the capacity to do what is spiritually good until you are born again.

You’re still pushing on the verge of teaching works my friend.
 
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You need to first read what we are discussing. What does spiritually "dead" mean?
Dead means separation. When the Spirit leaves the body, the body is dead, devoid of life, devoid of raising itself from its dead state.

Spiritual death is separation from God. God is the only life source for the spirit of man. Man being spiritually dead, his spirit can doing nothing until quickened, made alive, born again, regenerated.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I would like to thank Bill and Penn for a wonderful. Not inflammatory discussion. Last night, It is good and restores my faith that not everyone who is reformed/calvanist leaning is is out to win an argument at all cost.. Praise God.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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Hes he’s taken the Bible and broken it into two books instead of having one harmonious book. He says the OT saints were saved, but unregenerate. Sad. So, so sad. :(
They are called the Old Testament (Contract) and New Testament (Contract) for a reason. It is not a single book. Nobody follows an old contract after a new one is made.
 
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They are called the Old Testament (Contract) and New Testament (Contract) for a reason. It is not a single book. Nobody follows an old contract after a new one is made.

All scripture...not some, but all scripture...is profitable for correction, reproof, DOCTRINE....
 
Jan 6, 2018
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Dead means separation. When the Spirit leaves the body, the body is dead, devoid of life, devoid of raising itself from its dead state.

Spiritual death is separation from God. God is the only life source for the spirit of man. Man being spiritually dead, his spirit can doing nothing until quickened, made alive, born again, regenerated.
Read and define "dead" in Eph 2:1 as used in its paragraph. Words are defined in their context used not by picking definitions out of a dictionary.
 
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Notice, Jesus didn't say to Nicodemus that he didn't understand the OT:

Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
John 3:10*-‬12 NLT
Talk about missing the forest for the trees. What was the Pharisee Nicodemus teaching? OT. What was he supposed to see, knowing the OT? That people are born from above, and were so in the OT. He was rebuked for not knowing these things, being ignorant of truth.

You are either on milk, and cannot handle solid food, and are incapable of deducing truth from Scripture or something else. Of course I'm assuming it is the former, yet will be frank here; we always have 1 Corinthians 2:14 to consider as well since you are counting these things as foolishness. That said, you really need to back up a lot, and actually think, because the things you are repudiating are things of God.
 

tourist

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Mar 13, 2014
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They are called the Old Testament (Contract) and New Testament (Contract) for a reason. It is not a single book. Nobody follows an old contract after a new one is made.
Man coined the term Old Testament and New Testament, also broke the bible down into individual books with chapters and verses to facilitate reading, study and contemplation. It's all one book related to the Word of God.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
People are not absolutely spiritualy dead as Calvinists misinterpret the Scriptures. If man was absolutely spiritualy dead then we wouldn't read such things as this:
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign Lord .
Ezekiel 14:14 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/ezk.14.14.NLT
oh wow. You keep getting further and further away.

The penalty of sin is death, Not partially dead. In Adam all die. Not partially dead.

Are you sure your not at war with calvin so much your making stuff up? Just asking, because I have never heard these things.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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Dec 28, 2016
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Read and define "dead" in Eph 2:1 as used in its paragraph. Words are defined in their context used not by picking definitions out of a dictionary.
I defined ’dead’ in another post. Nekros is the Greek word(all the NT was written in Greek) means a dead corpse. That’s the Greek word’s meaning.

Dead means dead, as in a literal corpse. Nekros mean a literal dead corpse. That’s what it means in original Greek.