2Timothy 1:9

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh well, I tried. The legalists have suceeded in derailing with their law bait.

No you did well. Those of us not to proud to see Gods work was complete need to continue to hear it, so we can as John said, continue to believe in his name.

1 John 5: [SUP]10 [/SUP]He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[SUP][d][/SUP] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

satan wants to attack our faith and make it weak. We need reminders that God is always faithful, to destroy the whiles of the devil, and keep our eyes focused on God, and not ourselves.

Something these legalists can never have without repentance, and can not offer us in their gospel of false hope.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First things might get a less heated if some would stop saying this on others, "saved by works."

Nobody is teaching such a thing and this false accusation is the first thing that needs to be stopped !!!

How can it be stopped when people keep preaching it, then deny it??

 

[crossnote]

The "whole picture" rests on "cause and effect." Do we do good works TO QUALIFY for God's grace? Or is God's grace a free gift received through faith which then consequently leads TO good works? (Ephesians 2:8-10). Do we do good works because of faith, or is our faith caused by good works? Which is cause and which is effect?

But the topic was 2Tim 1:9 ..I didn't see a law/grace topic in that. It is all unconditional grace. There are three here who managed to bait the rest.

 

[mailmandan]

How can it be stopped when people keep preaching it, then deny it??

I hear plenty of sugar coated double talk on here - "We are not saved by works, but we must do good works to become saved; we are not saved by works, but we must be water baptized to be saved; we are not saved by works (of the law), but we are saved by works of faith/works of obedience" etc.. etc.. the list goes on.

Here is another example of sugar coated double talk from someone on a different thread who said this to me - "It is true as you say that these works of faith follow salvation, but it is also true that there are works of faith that precede salvation, that lead to salvation." Can you say OXYMORON.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hear plenty of sugar coated double talk on here - "We are not saved by works, but we must do good works to become saved; we are not saved by works, but we must be water baptized to be saved; we are not saved by works (of the law), but we are saved by works of faith/works of obedience" etc.. etc.. the list goes on.

Here is another example of sugar coated double talk from someone on a different thread who said this to me - "It is true as you say that these works of faith follow salvation, but it is also true that there are works of faith that precede salvation, that lead to salvation." Can you say OXYMORON.

they all have the same root problem, Pride.

Many different types. some more than others, but they all have refused to be the tax collector. and fall on their knees, repent, and trust God to save them.

They are still trying to put themselves in the equation.

 

[crossnote]

First things might get a less heated if some would stop saying this on others, "saved by works."

Nobody is teaching such a thing and this false accusation is the first thing that needs to be stopped !!!

Just like you and a few others need to stop turning every thread into a "works of man" issue.

 

[crossnote]

Then they bellyache why so many jump on their case...THEY BAIT THE ISSUE!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then they bellyache why so many jump on their case...THEY BAIT THE ISSUE.

then they will scream we cause division!

 

[KennethC]

I hear plenty of sugar coated double talk on here - "We are not saved by works, but we must do good works to become saved; we are not saved by works, but we must be water baptized to be saved; we are not saved by works (of the law), but we are saved by works of faith/works of obedience" etc.. etc.. the list goes on.

Here is another example of sugar coated double talk from someone on a different thread who said this to me - "It is true as you say that these works of faith follow salvation, but it is also true that there are works of faith that precede salvation, that lead to salvation." Can you say OXYMORON.

Do we not know the difference in doing our own righteousness from doing His righteousness ???

It is not double talk to say a true saving faith in the Lord is what saves, and a true faith is full of works and fruit of the Spirit; Not void of them, as they are the proof that one is saved !!!

The Word of God clearly upholds this, and nobody again is saying saved by works, works earn salvation, or have to do works to b saved. We are saying works are PROOF of one who is saved, plain and simple, and the bible supports this and also says one who is void of the fruit of the Spirit is not saved !!!

Is one saved before they repent of their sins..............Luke 13:3 answers this as Jesus says no we will still perish !!!

Is one saved before they are born again (baptized)....................John 3:3-5answers this as Jesus says nobody will enter the kingdom unless they are born again.

Is one saved before they do the will of God in their life..............Matthew 7:21 answers this as Jesus says only those who do the will of the Father in their life will enter the kingdom of heaven.


So just these few places by Jesus alone show something in the faith that either comes before being saved, or go hand and hand with the faith for salvation through the Lord !!!

 

[valiant]

I almost liked your post until I read your question. Then I knew I had to quote scripture to answer it so God answers you instead of me.

James 2:14-26
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17[/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We are to compare spiritual with spiritual to find the whole truth, and not be satisfied with only half of it by man's own wisdom. GBU in His wisdom.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

What you fail to see is that James was talking about being seen as justified BY THE EYES OF MEN. He was not talking about being justified before God. God does not need to see works to know whether faith is genuine or not.

 

[KennethC]

Just like you and a few others need to stop turning every thread into a "works of man" issue.

Not doing that either, as like I said before we all need to learn the difference of doing our own works from doing His righteousness/works in our lives.

Doing what Jesus taught and commanded is not "works of man", they are His works of righteousness !!!

A command is exactly that, a command, not a suggestion !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do we not know the difference in doing our own righteousness from doing His righteousness ???

Yes,

If we work for nothing, just to serve people. it is his righteousness

If we work to earn something in return, even if it is just to keep our salvation, it is self righteousness.

 

[KennethC]

What you fail to see is that James was talking about being seen as justified BY THE EYES OF MEN. He was not talking about being justified before God. God does not need to see works to know whether faith is genuine or not.

Abraham and Isaac were alone when he took his son to be sacrificed !!!

There were no other people around to be justified in front of so your point is mute.........................

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not doing that either, as like I said before we all need to learn the difference of doing our own works from doing His righteousness/works in our lives.

Doing what Jesus taught and commanded is not "works of man", they are His works of righteousness !!!

A command is exactly that, a command, not a suggestion !!!

They are only works of righteousness if they are not done to earn something, but done to serve.

Two people can serve a homeless person. One can do it and God gets credit, one can do it, and it be a sin (self righteousness)

you have to learn what the difference is. (because both are obeying the commandment of God )

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham and Isaac were alone when he took his son to be sacrificed !!!

There were no other people around to be justified in front of so your point is mute.........................

They haad each other, And it was written in stone, so it was for the benefit of every man who would ever read his testimony. In fact, it proves to me Abrahams faith was real.. And he is someone I can trust

So his reasoning is valid.

 

[crossnote]

Not doing that either, as like I said before we all need to learn the difference of doing our own works from doing His righteousness/works in our lives.

Doing what Jesus taught and commanded is not "works of man", they are His works of righteousness !!!

A command is exactly that, a command, not a suggestion !!!

But that was not the topic of the op, but you, just-me and another works mongerer just couldn't resist to introduce man's part in a verse where it did not exist. Thanks...for the derailment.

 

[valiant]

Do we not know the difference in doing our own righteousness from doing His righteousness ???

It is not double talk to say a true saving faith in the Lord is what saves, and a true faith is full of works and fruit of the Spirit; Not void of them, as they are the proof that one is saved !!!

Of course it is double talk. Faith is faith. It is not 'full of' anything. What is rather true is that good works and the fruit of the Spirit RESULT from faith. But they are not intrinisic within it. The faith that saves is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, not something which CONTAINS anything else.

The Word of God clearly upholds this, and nobody again is saying saved by works, works earn salvation, or have to do works to be saved.

Many are saying precisely that. For example those who speak of repentance as a necessary part of salvation, or who claim that baptism is necessary for salvation.

We are saying works are PROOF of one who is saved, plain and simple, and the bible supports this and also says one who is void of the fruit of the Spirit is not saved !!!

You are getting closer. But many perform good works who are NOT saved. Thus good works are NOT proof that someone is saved. As for the Spirit He is God's gift given as part of salvation. Noaspect of works there (apart from God's works).

Is one saved before they repent of their sins..............Luke 13:3 answers this as Jesus says no we will still perish !!!

But such repentance is not what we do. It is God's gift to us and part of our salvation.

Is one saved before they are born again (baptized).........

One is certainly saved before one is baptised if the baptism is genuine. And whilst 'required' it is not a necessity.

...........John 3:3-5answers this as Jesus says nobody will enter the kingdom unless they are born again.

true but thy do not have to be baptised in order to be born again. Baptism is a picture of the rebirth in terms of the prophetic scriptures (Isaiah 44.1-5; 55.10-13). It should FOLLOW being saved.

Is one saved before they do the will of God in their life........

Yes, it is only AFTER one has been saved that one can do the will of the Father.

......Matthew 7:21 answers this as Jesus says only those who do the will of the Father in their life will enter the kingdom of heaven.

true because doing the will of the Father is the consequence of being saved, not part of being saved.

So just these few places by Jesus alone show something in the faith that either comes before being saved, or go hand and hand with the faith for salvation through the Lord !!!

As I have demonstrated they DO NOT.

 

[mailmandan]

Do we not know the difference in doing our own righteousness from doing His righteousness???

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

It is not double talk to say a true saving faith in the Lord is what saves, and a true faith is full of works and fruit of the Spirit; Not void of them, as they are the proof that one is saved !!!

It's not double talk to say that faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and good works/fruit of the Spirit is the FRUIT of salvation. It's when you make BOTH faith AND works the root of salvation that you have crossed the line.

The Word of God clearly upholds this, and nobody again is saying saved by works, works earn salvation, or have to do works to be saved. We are saying works are PROOF of one who is saved, plain and simple, and the bible supports this and also says one who is void of the fruit of the Spirit is not saved !!!

You say that here, but other statements from you in other posts sound like something entirely different. That's why you keep running into arguments.

Is one saved before they repent of their sins..............Luke 13:3 answers this as Jesus says no we will still perish !!!

No and repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ. I here people place repentance "after" faith in order to be saved. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. If we don't repent then we won't believe the gospel and become saved.

Is one saved before they are born again (baptized)....................John 3:3-5 answers this as Jesus says nobody will enter the kingdom unless they are born again.

You assume this is water baptism, but Jesus did not say born of baptism and the Spirit in John 3:5. What "water" was Jesus talking about in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39? Saying that we must be water baptized in order to become saved is "adding a work" to salvation through faith. What did Jesus say in John 3:18? What happened to baptism?

Is one saved before they do the will of God in their life..............Matthew 7:21 answers this as Jesus says only those who do the will of the Father in their life will enter the kingdom of heaven.

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved (John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day) and God's will for believers AFTER we have been saved through faith (1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor).

So just these few places by Jesus alone show something in the faith that either comes before being saved, or go hand and hand with the faith for salvation through the Lord !!!

Repentance and faith go hand in hand and are inseparable in receiving salvation. Where you have one you must have the other. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. Water baptism follows repentance/faith/salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). What "additions or modifications" did Jesus add to these verses? - John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11;25,26.

 

[valiant]

Abraham and Isaac were alone when he took his son to be sacrificed !!!

There were no other people around to be justified in front of so your point is mute.........................

That's strange. I wonder how I cam to know about it? LOL

You fail to see that Abraham did not do it in order to be justified. It was James who saw it as justifying him. Wake up.

 

[valiant]

Not doing that either, as like I said before we all need to learn the difference of doing our own works from doing His righteousness/works in our lives.

Doing what Jesus taught and commanded is not "works of man", they are His works of righteousness !!!

A command is exactly that, a command, not a suggestion !!!

But they are still works and not required for salvation. We are saved UNTO good works, not in conjunction with them.