A True New Testament Church
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L
2 Chronicles 12:6 Whereupon the princes of Israel and the king humbled themselves; and they said, The LORD is righteous.
2 Chronicles 12:7 And when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, They have humbled themselves; therefore I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance; and my wrath shall not be poured out upon Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak.
2 Chronicles 12:8 Nevertheless they shall be his servants; that they may know my service, and the service of the kingdoms of the countries.
Deuteronomy 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 28:46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
Deuteronomy 28:47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
Deuteronomy 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
Deuteronomy 28 is all about blessings in obedience, and curses in rejecting God's instruction.
In Proverbs 24, (and many times Proverbs goes from subject to subject,) but keeping inline with Deuteronomy 28:, to see if there is a connection to doing onto others as they have done to us....just not seeing it. Maybe I'm missing something?
Proverbs 24:24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
Proverbs 24:25 But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
Proverbs 24:26 Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.
Proverbs 24:27 Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house.
Proverbs 24:28 Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.
Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
Proverbs 24:30 I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;Proverbs 24:31 And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.
Proverbs 24:32 Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.
I'm not certain what point you are making Elin, could you elaborate?
2 Chronicles 12:7 And when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, They have humbled themselves; therefore I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance; and my wrath shall not be poured out upon Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak.
2 Chronicles 12:8 Nevertheless they shall be his servants; that they may know my service, and the service of the kingdoms of the countries.
Deuteronomy 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 28:46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
Deuteronomy 28:47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
Deuteronomy 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
Deuteronomy 28 is all about blessings in obedience, and curses in rejecting God's instruction.
In Proverbs 24, (and many times Proverbs goes from subject to subject,) but keeping inline with Deuteronomy 28:, to see if there is a connection to doing onto others as they have done to us....just not seeing it. Maybe I'm missing something?
Proverbs 24:24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
Proverbs 24:25 But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
Proverbs 24:26 Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.
Proverbs 24:27 Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house.
Proverbs 24:28 Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.
Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
Proverbs 24:30 I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;Proverbs 24:31 And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.
Proverbs 24:32 Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.
I'm not certain what point you are making Elin, could you elaborate?
i am aware the Church of God practices foot washing.
that's fine with me....
it is not a New Testament ordinance though - we'll have to disagree on that.
...
13:8 If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Washing, with the Jews, was a symbolical act, signifying purification from uncleanliness. That Christ referred to more than a washing with water was understood by Peter as is evident from his reply. Christ could only wash with blood the obedient.
Jesus was illustrating something (to them) that was soon to come:
Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter."
zone
that's fine with me....
it is not a New Testament ordinance though - we'll have to disagree on that.
...
13:8 If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Washing, with the Jews, was a symbolical act, signifying purification from uncleanliness. That Christ referred to more than a washing with water was understood by Peter as is evident from his reply. Christ could only wash with blood the obedient.
Jesus was illustrating something (to them) that was soon to come:
Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter."
zone
It seems so simple to be able to understand our world, it was created by God and God wants us to live abundantly in it and live with Him forever. So simple. God cannot live with sin, so God sent Christ.
When most people in the world wouldn't listen, God created a race He treated specially so man had a chance of learning His way.
Just look at these posts!! "The law is dead" "don't listen to any OT teaching, Christ wiped it out" "When God gave the Jews rituals to help with their understanding, Christ made it sinful to use any of them today" "The OT is full of Judaism, if you see Judaism you are seeing sin." "Be very, very careful when you try to obey law or the law will get you in trouble, like legalism"
Men give all sorts of laws and instructions, and one of the instructions is to be careful if any instruction is not from Acts to Revelation, before that it really isn't scripture. It is as if all the love and freedom to love is taken out of scripture and human judgments replace anything joyful and free.
Poor Paul is drug into the whole mess. They say when he worked so to get the Jews to let him go to the gentiles with only scripture without rituals, that Paul said plain as anything that Moses was a fraud, everything he said didn't reflect God, you all have heard the story. And when Paul called these things the law of Moses, Paul got the entire world in trouble. The idea of putting all scripture together to better understand is just not an accepted thought. Everyone said Wow! Give me another drink, let's toast again to Paul who told me all law was dead.
When most people in the world wouldn't listen, God created a race He treated specially so man had a chance of learning His way.
Just look at these posts!! "The law is dead" "don't listen to any OT teaching, Christ wiped it out" "When God gave the Jews rituals to help with their understanding, Christ made it sinful to use any of them today" "The OT is full of Judaism, if you see Judaism you are seeing sin." "Be very, very careful when you try to obey law or the law will get you in trouble, like legalism"
Men give all sorts of laws and instructions, and one of the instructions is to be careful if any instruction is not from Acts to Revelation, before that it really isn't scripture. It is as if all the love and freedom to love is taken out of scripture and human judgments replace anything joyful and free.
Poor Paul is drug into the whole mess. They say when he worked so to get the Jews to let him go to the gentiles with only scripture without rituals, that Paul said plain as anything that Moses was a fraud, everything he said didn't reflect God, you all have heard the story. And when Paul called these things the law of Moses, Paul got the entire world in trouble. The idea of putting all scripture together to better understand is just not an accepted thought. Everyone said Wow! Give me another drink, let's toast again to Paul who told me all law was dead.
L
I hadn't considered Ezekiel 20:25. Great passage by the way.
My post that you responded to was in response to another person who talked about using discernment when studying the word, specifically, the laws.
I have met so many believers who completely reject the OT and when the subject of the law comes up, I've been asked a lot of odd questions. One person asked me if I'm going to stone someone for gathering sticks on the Sabbath, or If I keep all 613 Laws.
And that doesn't exclude the NT where Jesus talked about selling all that we have and taking up our cross and following HIM. Just last night I had someone ask me If I had sold all that I have, and then the person said that the instruction that Jesus gave "was for the Jews." Without any consideration to the fact that Paul continuously pointed to Jesus. And Jesus's own words, "blessed are those who hear these sayings of mine and do them.
Some will point out so-called contradictions in the word, such as the example "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," and then say that Jesus cancelled that out when He spoke on subject and gave instruction on the right way to deal with those who come against us.
The fact is, there are some hard sayings throughout the scriptures, and some in the first five chapters in the bible that many find difficult to grasp. So rather than search out and pray for understanding they completely reject the OT. I've even had people tell me that the OT was not God's word at all. They seem to find things that go against what they want to believe and since it doesn't agree with them, they call it, "bad."
So the point of using the term 'good laws VS. bad laws" was in addressing those types of things.
When I come across a hard saying, I always remind myself of how Peter answered Jesus when He asked the twelve if they were going to go away as well as the other disciples who walked away because of the hard sayings.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Along with what Jesus said about continuing in HIS word, that we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free.
Amen to what you said, "All of God's laws are good." and as I said in my original response, I can see the value of the original law as well, "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth." and it gives us a picture of how the world works in those types of situations. There's a natural example, or carnal example (the way the world would deal with it) and in what Jesus said regarding this, there is a spiritual example of how we who abide in HIM should deal with those types of situation.
My post that you responded to was in response to another person who talked about using discernment when studying the word, specifically, the laws.
I have met so many believers who completely reject the OT and when the subject of the law comes up, I've been asked a lot of odd questions. One person asked me if I'm going to stone someone for gathering sticks on the Sabbath, or If I keep all 613 Laws.
And that doesn't exclude the NT where Jesus talked about selling all that we have and taking up our cross and following HIM. Just last night I had someone ask me If I had sold all that I have, and then the person said that the instruction that Jesus gave "was for the Jews." Without any consideration to the fact that Paul continuously pointed to Jesus. And Jesus's own words, "blessed are those who hear these sayings of mine and do them.
Some will point out so-called contradictions in the word, such as the example "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," and then say that Jesus cancelled that out when He spoke on subject and gave instruction on the right way to deal with those who come against us.
The fact is, there are some hard sayings throughout the scriptures, and some in the first five chapters in the bible that many find difficult to grasp. So rather than search out and pray for understanding they completely reject the OT. I've even had people tell me that the OT was not God's word at all. They seem to find things that go against what they want to believe and since it doesn't agree with them, they call it, "bad."
So the point of using the term 'good laws VS. bad laws" was in addressing those types of things.
When I come across a hard saying, I always remind myself of how Peter answered Jesus when He asked the twelve if they were going to go away as well as the other disciples who walked away because of the hard sayings.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Along with what Jesus said about continuing in HIS word, that we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free.
Amen to what you said, "All of God's laws are good." and as I said in my original response, I can see the value of the original law as well, "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth." and it gives us a picture of how the world works in those types of situations. There's a natural example, or carnal example (the way the world would deal with it) and in what Jesus said regarding this, there is a spiritual example of how we who abide in HIM should deal with those types of situation.
L
This passage is amazing to study out and consider all of the scriptures involved with building up and tearing down.
Throughout the bible the things that were destroyed were sinful things, from Gideon knocking down the Idols in the city, to Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, and to Jericho and God's instruction to NOT rebuild it.
When we turn to God through Christ, we are to turn from our old ways, we are made new in HIM. We are not to "rebuild" or turn back to the elements of the world, or our old worldly ways.
In obedience to God, we would not rebuild what was destroyed and become transgressors of the law. Now with Christ, we are building better things on the sure foundation.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Throughout the bible the things that were destroyed were sinful things, from Gideon knocking down the Idols in the city, to Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, and to Jericho and God's instruction to NOT rebuild it.
When we turn to God through Christ, we are to turn from our old ways, we are made new in HIM. We are not to "rebuild" or turn back to the elements of the world, or our old worldly ways.
In obedience to God, we would not rebuild what was destroyed and become transgressors of the law. Now with Christ, we are building better things on the sure foundation.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
K
If you want to be under the law and not under grace, why would you? The law has no power to save only to condemn. This is why it is written "The letter kills but the spirit gives life". If we listen to the Holy Spirit and use the old laws as a guide we won't willfully sin and grace is for when we do. God gave the law to show what Holiness was and to emphasize that we would utterly fail to fulfill it. Which is why there was the sacrificial system, and why He allowed those who followed His ways on faith that the Messiah would come in the future and resolve the sin problem, to have their sins go unpunished and wait out in paradise.
K
Faith in Christ saves alone and allows God's grace to cover us...but God needs us not to be mired in sin to be more useful for the Kingdom which is why He said, that anyone who takes hold of the plow and looks back is not fit for service in the kingdom of God. If we keep looking back we are not ready yet. We have to learn to stop looking back before we can move forward. We gotta learn to keep our eyes fixated on Christ so He can use us. It's hard and we can't always do it, but the more we do the better off we are.
Remember Lot's wife! It's an example to us... even if we won't lose salvation a worse fate is becoming stagnant for Christ.
Remember Lot's wife! It's an example to us... even if we won't lose salvation a worse fate is becoming stagnant for Christ.
In completing the law, Jesus destroyed its curse, we are no longer to fear that curse which is death for we live in the grace afforded by the Blood of the Lamb of God, however the good laws, the laws on good behavior and simple morality will always be in effect.
We do not kill, if our enemy loses a possession and we find it, we return it. And all the rest of the good laws. We always show mercy where mercy is an option, just as Jesus taught us by His Example. Sinners do not kill sinners. Those who are saved would not even consider killing someone because of a sin.
Those are spawned by the bad laws spoken of in the Word. The good laws will always be good, and if we falter, and I believe we all do, we are not to worry about death for death was defeated on the cross, but it is still sin with the grace of God overlooking the guilt of it...
The good laws teach wisdom, or would we throw out all the writings teaching about them?
We do not kill, if our enemy loses a possession and we find it, we return it. And all the rest of the good laws. We always show mercy where mercy is an option, just as Jesus taught us by His Example. Sinners do not kill sinners. Those who are saved would not even consider killing someone because of a sin.
Those are spawned by the bad laws spoken of in the Word. The good laws will always be good, and if we falter, and I believe we all do, we are not to worry about death for death was defeated on the cross, but it is still sin with the grace of God overlooking the guilt of it...
The good laws teach wisdom, or would we throw out all the writings teaching about them?
K
...
They were there because of Messiah and not "works" but "obedience" to Torah. They were there for shavuot, just like Messiah instructed before His ascension. also, most likely they were on Salomon's Porch, not in a bedroom where they slept, rather the temple.
The period from Passover to Shavuot is a time of great anticipation. We count each of the days from the second day of Passover to the day before Shavuot, 49 days or 7 full weeks, hence the name of the festival. See The Counting of the Omer. Shavuot is also sometimes known as Pentecost, because it falls on the 50th day. The counting reminds us of the important connection between Passover and Shavuot: Passover freed us physically from bondage, but the giving of the Torah on Shavuot redeemed us spiritually from our bondage to idolatry and immorality.
They were there because of Messiah and not "works" but "obedience" to Torah. They were there for shavuot, just like Messiah instructed before His ascension. also, most likely they were on Salomon's Porch, not in a bedroom where they slept, rather the temple.
The period from Passover to Shavuot is a time of great anticipation. We count each of the days from the second day of Passover to the day before Shavuot, 49 days or 7 full weeks, hence the name of the festival. See The Counting of the Omer. Shavuot is also sometimes known as Pentecost, because it falls on the 50th day. The counting reminds us of the important connection between Passover and Shavuot: Passover freed us physically from bondage, but the giving of the Torah on Shavuot redeemed us spiritually from our bondage to idolatry and immorality.
You are the first person that has ever agreed with me concerning the counting from Passover to the finishing of the "feast of weeks." I remember a song when I was a kid called "bringing in the sheaves." The chorus also had the words "we will come rejoicing." I would also say that the "feast of tabernacles" were celebrated on three different occasions relating to the building and restoration of the temple. [Solomon, Hezekiah, Ezra, and Nehemiah] This is important because from the time Jesus was buried on the first day in the grave, to the day that Pentecost was fully come, correlate perfectly with the first Passover to the giving of the law. The days are the same in the first month as they are in the seventh month. The tenth day are the same, and also the fifteenth day. These feasts are celebrated, and today are our example to focus on the beauty, grace, and protection God gives His children directly pointing to the salvation of Jesus (Yeshua) the Messiah/Christ.
Anyone that might be interested, I have recently written a book about Jesus teaching the Old Testament, and have devoted one chapter on His resurrection that counts these days. This is not to be seen as something in the past, but the church would benefit from this understanding today. If interested, let me know in a private message your email, and I will send it as a file in a word document.
God bless you
Bryan
Anyone that might be interested, I have recently written a book about Jesus teaching the Old Testament, and have devoted one chapter on His resurrection that counts these days. This is not to be seen as something in the past, but the church would benefit from this understanding today. If interested, let me know in a private message your email, and I will send it as a file in a word document.
God bless you
Bryan
I have no idea how your comment addresses my comment........however, IF you are trying to state WHY the disciples were in Jerusalem........then I WILL accept the words of Jesus Christ......
Luke 24:44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 .) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 .) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 .) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 .) And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 .) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 .) And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 .) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 .) And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 .) And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Pretty clear that they were there because Jesus told them to tarry there.............and that would be "obedience" to His commandment........but, now, I guess that's just me.
Luke 24:44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 .) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 .) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 .) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 .) And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 .) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 .) And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 .) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 .) And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 .) And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Pretty clear that they were there because Jesus told them to tarry there.............and that would be "obedience" to His commandment........but, now, I guess that's just me.
Three might seem like a small number, but there is power in agreement. Let this agreement lead us to a greater truth, and better understanding of the great depth in our Savior's fantastic purpose for His bride that includes all who believe.
Matthew 18:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Matthew 18:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
K
God bless you. I too, remember those songs, however at that time did not understand the significance. The powers of this world have done a slick and underhanded job of deceiving the masses into thinking these things are no longer important.
I want to be ready for the "latter rain"! Sounds like you do too!
Very interested in what you've written about it. The old testament is key in understanding what Messiah was teaching. Oh, all the confusion about it, is rampant, it's everywhere! I was raised to believe in Jesus and everything is fine. Now my eyes are open and to think, what that is...that verse, even devils believe.. was so obscure to me yet was always there like an ominous cloud over my head. Trust and obey was not the message my preacher taught, trust only was what he taught.
It boils down to this...teaching falsely about what message Messiah was giving...is preaching a false Messiah. That misinterpretation of new testament has fooled both Jew and Gentile on a wide scale! This is huge! No wonder He will say on the last day, to many, I never knew you..Sadly most will continue in their sin. Even the meaning of sin, missing the mark, is wrong! Sin is defined by the Words of God, and that is ,,sin is breaking Torah. If that simple truth is willfully neglected to understand, then that is a problem.
I want to be ready for the "latter rain"! Sounds like you do too!
Very interested in what you've written about it. The old testament is key in understanding what Messiah was teaching. Oh, all the confusion about it, is rampant, it's everywhere! I was raised to believe in Jesus and everything is fine. Now my eyes are open and to think, what that is...that verse, even devils believe.. was so obscure to me yet was always there like an ominous cloud over my head. Trust and obey was not the message my preacher taught, trust only was what he taught.
It boils down to this...teaching falsely about what message Messiah was giving...is preaching a false Messiah. That misinterpretation of new testament has fooled both Jew and Gentile on a wide scale! This is huge! No wonder He will say on the last day, to many, I never knew you..Sadly most will continue in their sin. Even the meaning of sin, missing the mark, is wrong! Sin is defined by the Words of God, and that is ,,sin is breaking Torah. If that simple truth is willfully neglected to understand, then that is a problem.
K
We are in agreement. Our Creator is looking to and fro for those who will love, obey, and worship Him, in the way He has told us to. In the everlasting life there will be no deceivers or backbiters, mockers, no strife! You agree with God or you won't be there, period! It is a fearful thing to face wrath of God! That is a sobering thought! Seek truth with a humble heart, and when you find it, hold on to it, truth sets you free!
W
I don't know about the old testament being a key. It seems to me the old and new testaments are equally important. For one without the other would be meaningless for both. Heb. 11:40 speaking of the people of faith in the old testament says that God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us, should not be made perfect. So also the church is built upon the prophetic word and types and shadows of the old. Scripture says God knows the end from the beginning.Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written(16)After this I will return , and will build again the tabernacle of David(temple of the Holy Spirit) , which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up17) That the residue of men might seek after the lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all theses things.(18)Know unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world
17) That the residue of men might seek after the lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all theses things.(18)Know unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world