A True New Testament Church

[BradC]

"Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.

This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.

It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.

It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC"

...

the promises were fulfilled IN CHRIST; BY CHRIST at the First Coming.
all that remains is eternity.

soooo, it is you who excluded Israel from EVERYTHING.
i know the promises were and are FULFILLED IN CHRIST.

Everytime you post that, it strengthens my position and assurance for the nation and people of Israel through the greatness and endurance of God's mercy upon them by promise and by his own nature being unable to repent from his calling upon them. It also reveals Satan's resolve to keep the restoration of the nation and people of Israel away from the minds and heart of the world and from those who have been redeemed through that same mercy. Satan accuses the brethren by blinding individual minds from the immutability of God, the certainty of his counsel, the steadfastness of his promises and his longsuffering exercised toward those he has chosen long before the appointed time of Christ's first coming. Keep posting it and perhaps you will deceive some into your way of thinking but God will be glorified when all these things come to past as they have been prophesied, that others might believe in him and receive his Spirit of truth.

 

[JaumeJ]

In order to truly understand the New Testemant, it is incumbent upon the child and student of God to know the Old Testament.

 

[just-me]

In order to truly understand the New Testemant, it is incumbent upon the child and student of God to know the Old Testament.

How true!! Scripture says;

Leviticus 25:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.

Leviticus 26:9-13 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

Jesus broke the bands of the enmity caused by a sinful nature that was revealed by His law of the Old Testament.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is written also, Why do you look to the day of the Lord, it is darkness and not light as though a man ran from a lion and ran into a bear. Paraphrase, it could be from a bear and ran into a lion. And this has always meant a lot to me, but i could never quite convey exactly what, but I feel it deeply.

 

[just-me]

It is written also, Why do you look to the day of the Lord, it is darkness and not light as though a man ran from a lion and ran into a bear. Paraphrase, it could be from a bear and ran into a lion. And this has always meant a lot to me, but i could never quite convey exactly what, but I feel it deeply.

Amos 5:18-20 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

The day of judgment reveals the truth. Be not deceived, God is telling the church. Cleansing is cruel at times depending on the offence. I say to all, don't be apathetic in these days. Know that the day of the Lord is near.

 

[Least]

In posting the OP I fully realize the difference between what is alive and what is dead. All one need do is learn from our Savior by His Word and by His deed. We all should know the difference between the bad laws and the good, this takes some discernment, at least enough discernment to know what is being said or read. If we know the difference, it is because we live in grace. Had you understood what is posted you would have understood we all are living in grace, and again this is not license to sin. If you believe sin is dead because of living in grace, I am afraid you do not understand much. I believe people do not understand anything between Genesis and Malachi if they believe we are not to obey Yahweh, God.

Eze 20:25
Moreover also I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances wherein they should not live;

Hi JaumeJ,

I was just reading a chapter Proverbs 24 this morning, and a verse caught my attention.

Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Then I sign on here and read this post. Talk about edification!

This is one of those examples of a good law vs. a bad law. It's even apparent that it was corrected in the OT, and of course, by Jesus Himself. However, I can see an example of how the world works in the original law, so there is value in the original law as well.

The original law was this:

Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exodus 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Jesus said this: (As you know.)

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

From the OT.
Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Back to the NT:

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

I'm sure that there are many more examples in the OT, that I need to spend time studying. God's Word is just amazing, and He knows how to clarify what any passage means when we seek HIM in it.

 

[RedTent]

no you don't. nobody here talks or thinks that way. you keep making the accusation though.
but you practice a few jewish rituals and read the OT (like we don't? LOL) and you're all that.

you know neither book.

Zone the things you teach are against all that God is, all God wants for His family. You found out that I use some rituals to daily remind me of the spirit of God, and use that to preach that we must never listen to the word except the part of it you accept. Have you read that we aren't to be judged by rituals? Yet anytime you respond to me you bring up you are judging me by mine. That judging in your way keeps Christ from you, according to scripture. You read the OT, but you preach "fulfilled" as a reason to not accept the God principles it tells of. You preach that Christ changed the world, that is good, Christ did. But not in the way you teach.

It is a terrible thing to teach the distortions you put out.

 

[just-me]

Hi JaumeJ,

I was just reading a chapter Proverbs 24 this morning, and a verse caught my attention.

Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Then I sign on here and read this post. Talk about edification!

This is one of those examples of a good law vs. a bad law. It's even apparent that it was corrected in the OT, and of course, by Jesus Himself. However, I can see an example of how the world works in the original law, so there is value in the original law as well.

The original law was this:

Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exodus 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Jesus said this: (As you know.)

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

From the OT.
Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Back to the NT:

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

I'm sure that there are many more examples in the OT, that I need to spend time studying. God's Word is just amazing, and He knows how to clarify what any passage means when we seek HIM in it.

Just to add.... and it is so good to see you Least !
By turning the other cheek we force equity on the one striking us. God is God of "equity." In some cases, it even causes humility into the very heart of the instigator.

By giving up your cloke makes a person shutter because to have another's persons cloke was punishable by imprisonment according to the Mosaic Law. It was not to be kept as a bargaining substance over night, that was used in an agreement in some cases. The cloak was a bed, and a way to stay warm at night. Jesus never changed the intent of the law, He rightly defined the love within the law.

 

[JaumeJ]

When I ask God to bless my food, I raise my hand over the food and the people at the table then up high to the east. This has always been my way, naturally. My question is, am I guilty of false tradition? After all it is my own thought and feeling put into this, and it is kind of a ritual, although I am fully aware of why I do what I do. I know it is nothing I would tell others to do, though it is special to me because it probably would not mean much to others.

Zone the things you teach are against all that God is, all God wants for His family. You found out that I use some rituals to daily remind me of the spirit of God, and use that to preach that we must never listen to the word except the part of it you accept. Have you read that we aren't to be judged by rituals? Yet anytime you respond to me you bring up you are judging me by mine. That judging in your way keeps Christ from you, according to scripture. You read the OT, but you preach "fulfilled" as a reason to not accept the God principles it tells of. You preach that Christ changed the world, that is good, Christ did. But not in the way you teach.

It is a terrible thing to teach the distortions you put out.

 

[loveme1]

When I ask God to bless my food, I raise my hand over the food and the people at the table then up high to the east. This has always been my way, naturally. My question is, am I guilty of false tradition? After all it is my own thought and feeling put into this, and it is kind of a ritual, although I am fully aware of why I do what I do. I know it is nothing I would tell others to do, though it is special to me because it probably would not mean much to others.

If you went around exalting yourself and telling everyone else: They Must do this..

then i would shout "pharisee" at you

Whatever is in your heart during this and always is what counts.

 

[RedTent]

Hi JaumeJ,

I was just reading a chapter Proverbs 24 this morning, and a verse caught my attention.

Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Then I sign on here and read this post. Talk about edification!

This is one of those examples of a good law vs. a bad law. It's even apparent that it was corrected in the OT, and of course, by Jesus Himself. However, I can see an example of how the world works in the original law, so there is value in the original law as well.

The original law was this:

Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exodus 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Jesus said this: (As you know.)

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

From the OT.
Proverbs 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Back to the NT:

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

I'm sure that there are many more examples in the OT, that I need to spend time studying. God's Word is just amazing, and He knows how to clarify what any passage means when we seek HIM in it.

I am doing a study of exodus 20 and 21, for I wondered about God saying an eye for and eye, etc. Here is what I learned.

Chapter 20 is like a preamble to the constitution, all of chapter 21 called "Misphat" in Hebrew is within this framework.

Because God used men who thought through the Hebrew language to write His words, we need to know what their words meant to them. We need to know that Hebrews thought of salvation and law keeping in a completely different way than we do. We think of it in relation to our salvation for eternal life. They didn't think of what would happen after death, they thought of law keeping as how it affected their day to day life here. If we look at the entirety of scripture, we find that there is truth in both viewpoints, but knowing only one side is wrong.

In Exodus 21:1 it says Now these are the judgments (ordinances or rulings) which though shalt set before them. Those are translations of the word mishpat. Another way of saying it is that these are ways to live with justice. This is a detailed list of what is right. This is a system of justice.

When you dig deeply into the "eye for an eye", you find that God is NOT ordering to take out someone's eye, as many of today's Christians read it. God is saying that when a wrong happens to someone, there should be just compensation. Whenever we read any scripture as saying something that is not in keeping with the bulk of other scriptures, we can know we have it wrong. Taking out someone's eye is not in keeping with love, and love is the basis of all law. From that, we can know there is another message to us in this scripture.

With understanding, there is never any contradiction in any of scripture. All of Exodus 21 is saying we need to add justice in a world that knew little of justice, they were principles that set that world upside down.

I am trying to condense hours of study into a few paragraphs, I hope I am making some of what I learned clear.

 

[zone]

I wonder why an entire generation of Christians have learned so much of the Lord, yet decide to blind their eyes to an entire set of teachings!! It was the same when Isaiah spoke, only the blindness is in the opposite direction. Today the church asks why they should look at how the world was before Christ when it is enough to learn how it is after Christ.

They are learning from men whose minds were full of the principles of God, eternal principles that are the ground work of understanding God. It is important to know how Christ added to these principles, but by refusing to take the basic knowledge of God seriously, by saying they aren't important because only the new is important, they aren't even understanding the new!

I read constantly of how all the additions to our understanding means that they were not additions at all, that all of God before is replaced, fulfilled in the sense that now that is done with, don't let it in your minds.

In the book of Daniel and the book of Revelations we are told what this kind of thinking leads to.

Christ was "the promise", in the old testament. He who has an ear let him hear. Eve's generation hoped for a redeemer.

New testament only is a shallow understanding of God's grace and love,

it's like reading the last chapter in a novel, the icing on the cake with no cake.

birds of a feather.

anathema.

 

[zone]

I wonder why an entire generation of Christians have learned so much of the Lord, yet decide to blind their eyes to an entire set of teachings!! It was the same when Isaiah spoke, only the blindness is in the opposite direction. Today the church asks why they should look at how the world was before Christ when it is enough to learn how it is after Christ.

They are learning from men whose minds were full of the principles of God, eternal principles that are the ground work of understanding God. It is important to know how Christ added to these principles, but by refusing to take the basic knowledge of God seriously, by saying they aren't important because only the new is important, they aren't even understanding the new!

I read constantly of how all the additions to our understanding means that they were not additions at all, that all of God before is replaced, fulfilled in the sense that now that is done with, don't let it in your minds.

In the book of Daniel and the book of Revelations we are told what this kind of thinking leads to.

NOBODY says "don't let IT (what - the OT? God's Laws?) into your minds.
i've offered many times for YOU to have a discussion on the OT - all of it.
we will see how much of it is in our minds.

Zone the things you teach are against all that God is, all God wants for His family. You found out that I use some rituals to daily remind me of the spirit of God, and use that to preach that we must never listen to the word except the part of it you accept. Have you read that we aren't to be judged by rituals? Yet anytime you respond to me you bring up you are judging me by mine. That judging in your way keeps Christ from you, according to scripture. You read the OT, but you preach "fulfilled" as a reason to not accept the God principles it tells of. You preach that Christ changed the world, that is good, Christ did. But not in the way you teach.

It is a terrible thing to teach the distortions you put out.

and once again you lie.
define your "God principles", RedTent.
and let's talk LAW.

and let's talk FULFILLED....

ready when you are.

 

[zone]

Everytime you post that, it strengthens my position and assurance for the nation and people of Israel through the greatness and endurance of God's mercy upon them by promise and by his own nature being unable to repent from his calling upon them. It also reveals Satan's resolve to keep the restoration of the nation and people of Israel away from the minds and heart of the world and from those who have been redeemed through that same mercy. Satan accuses the brethren by blinding individual minds from the immutability of God, the certainty of his counsel, the steadfastness of his promises and his longsuffering exercised toward those he has chosen long before the appointed time of Christ's first coming. Keep posting it and perhaps you will deceive some into your way of thinking but God will be glorified when all these things come to past as they have been prophesied, that others might believe in him and receive his Spirit of truth.

what promise? here's what you said they were promised; NOTHING:

"Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.

This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.

It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.

It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC"


and yet there are ppl who click LIKE on your stuff.
which convinces me its JUDGMENT.

 

[Least]

I am doing a study of exodus 20 and 21, for I wondered about God saying an eye for and eye, etc. Here is what I learned.

Chapter 20 is like a preamble to the constitution, all of chapter 21 called "Misphat" in Hebrew is within this framework.

Because God used men who thought through the Hebrew language to write His words, we need to know what their words meant to them. We need to know that Hebrews thought of salvation and law keeping in a completely different way than we do. We think of it in relation to our salvation for eternal life. They didn't think of what would happen after death, they thought of law keeping as how it affected their day to day life here. If we look at the entirety of scripture, we find that there is truth in both viewpoints, but knowing only one side is wrong.

In Exodus 21:1 it says Now these are the judgments (ordinances or rulings) which though shalt set before them. Those are translations of the word mishpat. Another way of saying it is that these are ways to live with justice. This is a detailed list of what is right. This is a system of justice.

When you dig deeply into the "eye for an eye", you find that God is NOT ordering to take out someone's eye, as many of today's Christians read it. God is saying that when a wrong happens to someone, there should be just compensation. Whenever we read any scripture as saying something that is not in keeping with the bulk of other scriptures, we can know we have it wrong. Taking out someone's eye is not in keeping with love, and love is the basis of all law. From that, we can know there is another message to us in this scripture.

With understanding, there is never any contradiction in any of scripture. All of Exodus 21 is saying we need to add justice in a world that knew little of justice, they were principles that set that world upside down.

I am trying to condense hours of study into a few paragraphs, I hope I am making some of what I learned clear.

Hi Redtent,

I do hope that you will share more on your study when time permits.

Your points are very clear, thank you.

Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would by any means pass away from the law, so every law is valid.

I also agree that there are no contradictions in the scriptures. When we come across something that seems contradictory it's our own lack of understanding. The scriptures are true and sure.

You made some great points about how the Israelites viewed the laws. I will have to study more about "Misphat," I've never looked into that and had no idea of what it meant.

Thank you for sharing this.

 

[RedTent]

NOBODY says "don't let IT (what - the OT? God's Laws?) into your minds.
i've offered many times for YOU to have a discussion on the OT - all of it.
we will see how much of it is in our minds.

and once again you lie.
define your "God principles", RedTent.
and let's talk LAW.

and let's talk FULFILLED....

ready when you are.

Zone, I thought at first you could be talked to and reasoned with, but I find that there are thoughts in your head that you have stuck there and you can't reason. I found you are so filled with men's ideas that God is simply beyond breaking through. Your idea of fulfilled is not God's idea and you hang on to your idea so tight you can not see beyond it. Your idea of Judaism, again, can not be budged so you can't see anything beyond it so you can reason. People explain to you, many people have tried, but other people have a goal of learning of God, and your goal is proving your way of thinking is correct and putting scripture before you is useless.

No, I tried to talk to you as a fellow Christian, I tried hard. Many others have tried. All have come to the conclusion that you are not from the side of God and scripture, only from Zone, and it is useless.

So, I can learn from your knowledge, but it is impossible for you to even consider any knowledge that isn't exclusively Zone. God tells us when we come across this situation, to stay away from it.

 

[zone]

Zone, I thought at first you could be talked to and reasoned with, but I find that there are thoughts in your head that you have stuck there and you can't reason. I found you are so filled with men's ideas that God is simply beyond breaking through. Your idea of fulfilled is not God's idea and you hang on to your idea so tight you can not see beyond it. Your idea of Judaism, again, can not be budged so you can't see anything beyond it so you can reason. People explain to you, many people have tried, but other people have a goal of learning of God, and your goal is proving your way of thinking is correct and putting scripture before you is useless.

No, I tried to talk to you as a fellow Christian, I tried hard. Many others have tried. All have come to the conclusion that you are not from the side of God and scripture, only from Zone, and it is useless.

So, I can learn from your knowledge, but it is impossible for you to even consider any knowledge that isn't exclusively Zone. God tells us when we come across this situation, to stay away from it.

we have nothing in common because CHRIST is a side issue for you.
put me on ignore.
that won't stop me from posting.

 

[RedTent]

we have nothing in common because CHRIST is a side issue for you.
put me on ignore.
that won't stop me from posting.

That is what I meant!! There is no reasoning in this post, only your decision that even though I have often stated that Christ was from the beginning and is central to us, you have decided that, beyond a doubt, Christ is a side issue with me. Not that you hear what I just said! I wish you could reason and talk, but as you keep explaining, you can't.

 

[zone]

That is what I meant!! There is no reasoning in this post, only your decision that even though I have often stated that Christ was from the beginning and is central to us, you have decided that, beyond a doubt, Christ is a side issue with me. Not that you hear what I just said! I wish you could reason and talk, but as you keep explaining, you can't.

the WWCG teaches the same thing - 'the Father feels left out when the Son gets the Glory'.

 

[Elin]

In order to truly understand the New Testemant, it is incumbent upon the child and student of God to know the Old Testament.

The NT is related to the OT as the Temple is to its foundation.