*** A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD***

[masmpg]

Amen

That is one thing we all seem to agree on,that He does return after the GT.

When will postribs acknowledge thet;
1) he returns WITH HIS SAINTS rev 19

2) that verse in Mat 24 says the elect are gathered from heaven,not earth,and angels do the gathering,not Jesus.

Here is the same context from Mark which tells us that they were gathered from the four winds from earth and heaven AFTER THE TRIBULATION!
I still have not seen any proof text from you for the pre trib rapture, and you will never find any because there are none.

M'r:13:24: But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
M'r:13:25: And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
M'r:13:26: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
M'r:13:27: And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[masmpg]

My posts 1237 and 1240 refute you. The tribulation martyrs/saints DO NOT belong to the Church. The Church will be CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord forever, as recorded in 1 Thess.4:17, SEVEN YEARS BEFORE. as recorded in the above post 1237, when the Church age ENDS!


Quasar92 [/COLOR]

Do you have any bible verses to prove this???

 

[Quasar92]

Do you have any bible verses to prove this???

Bible verses are not needed to know and understand, all of us who belong to Christ, is His Church. He calls us all up to meet Him in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thess.4:17. From where He will take us to heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3, 28. Which I already posted in posts 1237 and 1240. The Church age ends at that time. The tribulation martyrs/saints, are the non-believers left behind when the Church is caught up to be with the Lord, in Jn.14:2-3, 28 and 1 Thess.4:17. That is why they do not belong to the Church. They are brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will place on the earth, as recorded in Rev.7:1-17.

Hope that helps.


Quasar02

 

[masmpg]

Bible verses are not needed to know and understand, all of us who belong to Christ, is His Church. He calls us all up to meet Him in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thess.4:17. From where He will take us to heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3, 28. Which I already posted in posts 1237 and 1240. The Church age ends at that time. The tribulation martyrs/saints, are the non-believers left behind when the Church is caught up to be with the Lord, in Jn.14:2-3, 28 and 1 Thess.4:17. That is why they do not belong to the Church. They are brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will place on the earth, as recorded in Rev.7:1-17.

Hope that helps.


Quasar02

So you are saying that everyone who belongs to a church will be raptured?

 

[Quasar92]

So you are saying that everyone who belongs to a church will be raptured?

All of us who belong to Christ, are members of His body, the Church of Jesus Christ. Meaning, there is only one true Church. The local churches are various places where most of us who belong to Christ attend to worship Him.


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

Quasar is a Darbyite Dispensationalist, Pre-Trib, Replacement Theorist who places the Church ahead of Israel. He argues against Paul's teaching to the Romans that we are grafted in with the natural tree. Rather, he teaches that Israel is left behind and that the Church is the true Bride while Israel is part of the "Tribulation Saints" who get left behind, disgraced and left out of the Bride. This "haughty" attitude, as Paul called it" and warned can actually get the haughty ones un-grafted.

Quasar doesn't believe that Israel is the Natural Olive Tree and that we in the Gentile church are being grafted in to make them jealous as Paul taught the Romans. Quasar creates classes of SAVED people, those part of the Bride, those not, those worthy to be raptured, those not. Dangerous!!

 

[Quasar92]

Quasar is a Darbyite Dispensationalist, Pre-Trib, Replacement Theorist who places the Church ahead of Israel. He argues against Paul's teaching to the Romans that we are grafted in with the natural tree. Rather, he teaches that Israel is left behind and that the Church is the true Bride while Israel is part of the "Tribulation Saints" who get left behind, disgraced and left out of the Bride. This "haughty" attitude, as Paul called it" and warned can actually get the haughty ones un-grafted.

Quasar doesn't believe that Israel is the Natural Olive Tree and that we in the Gentile church are being grafted in to make them jealous as Paul taught the Romans. Quasar creates classes of SAVED people, those part of the Bride, those not, those worthy to be raptured, those not. Dangerous!!

PlainWord reveals how he adulterates what I post with the same kind of fiction, he uses in composing his own Scriptures. Claiming he is right and the Scriptures are wrong. What I have previously posted reveals what a liar he is, without a chance of a snowball in hell of proving a shred of his fairy tales. It is impossible to interface with you, because you are an arrogant know it all, as well as being unteachable.

As I have previously posted, Darby did not invent the pre-trib rapture of the Church. He RESTORED the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who were the original teachers of it, from the RCC, who held its teachings hostage for more than 1,600 years, with their doctrine of Amillennialism. As documented in the following:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

Scripturalproof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

A Scriptural chronological step by step order of end times events:

The chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums


Rom.11:17: "If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,"

Get this through your head: The Olive root is the Holy Spirit, NOT Israel, you and many others fail to understand! Review what Jesus has to say about it:

Jn.15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.[SUP]2 [/SUP]He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.[SUP]3 [/SUP]You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."


God turned His back on Israel, temporarily, because of their disobedience and rejection of accepting Jesus as their Messiah, as documented in the Bible, NOT something Quasar invented, as you lie about above, that I teach the replacement theology!


Rom.10:19 "Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”


[SUP]Mt.19:30 "[/SUP]But many who are first [Israel] will be last, and many who are last will be first [The Church]." [Parenthetics mine]


The first of the three links above will edify you as to the Church going to heaven with Jesus before the tribulation begins, and is the Bride of the Lamb, in the marriage that takes place in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8. Israelis/Jews who are believers are a part of the one body of Christ, His Church, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13! While the non-believing nation of Israel is decreed by God, to go through Jacob's trouble, in Jer.30:7 and in the 70th and final week of Dan., in 9:27. When Jesus returns from the marriage to the Church, in heaven, He will return to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, recorded in Rev.19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5! Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah, at that time, according to Zech.12:10!

Your egotical claim my attitude is "haughty, " is not mine, but rather the very text of the Scripture I use to refute your allegorical compositions!

Your seat of the pants meaningless opinion, is a worthless display of rhetoric to hide your failure to field your views with Scriptura support! Capiche!


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

God turned His back on Israel, temporarily, because of their disobedience and rejection of accepting Jesus as their Messiah, as documented in the Bible, NOT something Quasar invented, as you lie about above, that I teach the replacement theology!

But you do teach replacement, perhaps without even realizing it. You teach that the Raptured church gets to go to heaven first and becomes the Bride while the Jewish nation gets left behind to suffer through the GT. This makes them "left behinders" by your definition. You also previously said that those "left behind" will not take part in the marriage.

I teach ONE BRIDE, ONE RAPTURE, ONE RESURRECTION and ONE HEAVEN for ALL SAVED. EVERYONE IS EQUAL although some get better rewards. We see this unity and focus on Israel and the church founders here:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: [SUP]13 [/SUP]three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't see the name of any church mentioned here.

 

[Quasar92]

But you do teach replacement, perhaps without even realizing it. You teach that the Raptured church gets to go to heaven first and becomes the Bride while the Jewish nation gets left behind to suffer through the GT. This makes them "left behinders" by your definition. You also previously said that those "left behind" will not take part in the marriage.

I teach ONE BRIDE, ONE RAPTURE, ONE RESURRECTION and ONE HEAVEN for ALL SAVED. EVERYONE IS EQUAL although some get better rewards. We see this unity and focus on Israel and the church founders here:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: [SUP]13 [/SUP]three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't see the name of any church mentioned here.

You can cut out posting what you claim are my teachings, because your views are incorrectly stated! What I posted in 1287 come directly from the prophetic Scriptures, not like the above meaningless opinionated guesswork out of la la land, without a shred of Scriptural support! You don't have a clue as to what the replacement theory even is! It is the belief the Church has replaced Israel in God's plan, and that He has, as such, forsaken Israel permanently!

The term "church," is a miss-transliteration by KJV Scribes in 1611 A.D., of the Greek Ekklesia, and the Hebrew Congregation, meaning, a gathering of people. The word church is also used to denote those who belong to Jesus, born again Christians. There is only ONE Christian Church: The Body of Christ, in which He is the Head, His Church. All the others are local churches of an endless number of denominations, who differ in their various belief systems.

There is only one documented marriage of Jesus, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8, of the Bride/Church, that consists of Jews and Gentiles alike, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13, to the Lamb/Jesus. While Israel is going through the tribulation on earth, as recordedJer.30:7; Dan.9:27; Mt.24:4-31, as well as the counterparts in Mk.13, Lk.21 and Rev.6.

FYI, there will be TWO resurrections; The first one that follows Jesus second Coming, in Rev.19:14, of the tribulation martyrs/saints. While the second one will take place after Jesus 1,000 year reign has ended, at the Great White Throne Judgment, 1,000 years after the first resurrection, according to Rev.20:5, in Rev.20:11-15.

The bottom line is the fact you are an imposter, as a so called teacher of the Bible. Because you have no credentials authorizing you to do so! Even worse, that you have the arrogance to argue your false views against my qualifications to teach theology and eschatology!


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Quasar92,

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't see the name of any church mentioned here.

Who does PW think the names of twelve apostles are representing? The twelve tribes written on the gates are representing Israel and the names of the twelve apostles are representing the church. The twenty four elders are representing both Israel and the church.

I teach ONE BRIDE, ONE RAPTURE, ONE RESURRECTION and ONE HEAVEN for ALL SAVED.

ONE Bride = Everyone who belongs to the church whether Jew or Gentile. Once the church has been gathered, that is the end of the church period. Israel, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints, are under a different designation and do not belong to the church.

One Harpazo = One takes place of the living believers immediately after the resurrection. The Male Child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, are also caught up in the middle of the seven years. So that's two Harpazo's.

One Resurrection = The are actually several resurrections, which are phases of the first resurrection. It is chronologically impossible for them to all take place at the same time.

One Heaven = Scripture states that this present heaven and earth will depart/pass away and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Not a renovation of the current, but brand new. For the same word "New" is also used to describe the new Jerusalem and we know that it is not a renovation of the current city of Jerusalem, but is unique, novel, ergo, the heaven and earth will also be brand new.

 

[PlainWord]

Hello Quasar92,



Who does PW think the names of twelve apostles are representing? The twelve tribes written on the gates are representing Israel and the names of the twelve apostles are representing the church. The twenty four elders are representing both Israel and the church.




ONE Bride = Everyone who belongs to the church whether Jew or Gentile. Once the church has been gathered, that is the end of the church period. Israel, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints, are under a different designation and do not belong to the church.

One Harpazo = One takes place of the living believers immediately after the resurrection. The Male Child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, are also caught up in the middle of the seven years. So that's two Harpazo's.

One Resurrection = The are actually several resurrections, which are phases of the first resurrection. It is chronologically impossible for them to all take place at the same time.

One Heaven = Scripture states that this present heaven and earth will depart/pass away and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Not a renovation of the current, but brand new. For the same word "New" is also used to describe the new Jerusalem and we know that it is not a renovation of the current city of Jerusalem, but is unique, novel, ergo, the heaven and earth will also be brand new.

I think the 12 apostles represent the Church and the 12 tribes represent Israel. Together Israel, and the Church which is grafted in, are the two witnesses. The symbolism is clear. The Lampstand with the seven pipes and the two branches from the two olive trees pouring oil (of the HS) into them.

I was asking Quasar. Quasar is the one leaving the Jewish nation behind meaning (to him) that they aren't part of the Bride. Quasar made clear, those left behind miss out on the Wedding and are NOT part of the Bride. According to you guys, Israel gets left behind along with the Tribulation Saints. They both miss the rapture and the wedding. If so, reconcile the below passage since we see the church and Israel together as the "new city."

“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:[SUP]..[/SUP][SUP] 14 [/SUP]Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

We see the new city, Jerusalem is the BRIDE OF THE LAMB. This is clear. We see the 12 tribes and 12 apostles representing Israel and the Church make up the Bride, just as you said (which I am glad to hear BTW).

Further, I said ONE RESURRECTION for the SAVED. There is also one for the unsaved. Christ was the firstfruits of the first Resurrection meaning He was resurrected first. There are those of us resurrected into life and those of the world resurrected into death. Fortunately, we are not "of the world."

 

[PlainWord]

FYI, there will be TWO resurrections; The first one that follows Jesus second Coming, in Rev.19:14, of the tribulation martyrs/saints. While the second one will take place after Jesus 1,000 year reign has ended, at the Great White Throne Judgment, 1,000 years after the first resurrection, according to Rev.20:5, in Rev.20:11-15.

What do you pre-tribbers think about this statement from Quasar? He seems to be saying that there is no resurrection at the Pre-trib rapture. That kinda blows 1 Thes 4:16 out of the water, doesn't it? I guess the dead in Christ don't rise first anymore. Quasar has spoken rending the Words of God meaningless.

The bottom line is the fact you are an imposter, as a so called teacher of the Bible. Because you have no credentials authorizing you to do so! Even worse, that you have the arrogance to argue your false views against my qualifications to teach theology and eschatology!

What Bible school did Jesus go to as a child that authorized Him to debate the highly educated Pharisees? Your qualifications to teach eschatology are worthless because the views you hold are false.

 

[adoptedprincess]

If it is post tribulation, then Jesus' blood is not enough to save us. We need His blood and grace PLUS not taking the mark of the beast.

 

[Quasar92]

What do you pre-tribbers think about this statement from Quasar? He seems to be saying that there is no resurrection at the Pre-trib rapture. That kinda blows 1 Thes 4:16 out of the water, doesn't it? I guess the dead in Christ don't rise first anymore. Quasar has spoken rending the Words of God meaningless.



What Bible school did Jesus go to as a child that authorized Him to debate the highly educated Pharisees? Your qualifications to teach eschatology are worthless because the views you hold are false.

1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection, for the following reasons:

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. JESUS DICTATED TO JOHN, THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS THE ONE OF THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS/SAINTS, SEVEN YEARS LATER, IN REV.20:4/5! 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].



Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Quasar92,

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

1 Thes.4:13-17 is a detailed account of the dead rising first (their bodies) and then immediately following that, the living will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. From there the Lord takes the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that where he is we may be also.

2 Cor.5:6-8 is referring to when a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection, for the word "anastasis" translated "Resurrection" always and only refers to the body standing back up again. If it just has to do with the spirit leaving the body at the time of death, it is not a resurrection.

"Each in his own turn" is in reference to each group, Christ the first fruits, then those at his coming, meaning the entire church. It is not in reference to each individual believer at the time of death. There are also other resurrections that will take place such as the two witnesses in the middle of the seven years and the great tribulation saints after Christ returns to the earth.

Resurrection:
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476/hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).


Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).


[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical,bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

 

[PlainWord]

1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection, for the following reasons:

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. JESUS DICTATED TO JOHN, THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS THE ONE OF THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS/SAINTS, SEVEN YEARS LATER, IN REV.20:4/5! 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].



Quasar92

Now you are sounding a lot like me. I believe that the first resurrection (of which Christ was the firstfruits) is indeed spiritual. But we are each in our own order, not when we die but when we come to Christ. This is the indwelling of the HS - whether alive or dead, we are with Him. Our spirit and souls will be in heaven upon physical death but are saved and changed at Acceptance.

The second resurrection I have to agree with Ahwatukee on. The raising up is a well taught principle and it happens ON THE LAST DAY. The timing has absolutely nothing to do with the attack on Israel.

 

[Quasar92]

Now you are sounding a lot like me. I believe that the first resurrection (of which Christ was the firstfruits) is indeed spiritual. But we are each in our own order, not when we die but when we come to Christ. This is the indwelling of the HS - whether alive or dead, we are with Him. Our spirit and souls will be in heaven upon physical death but are saved and changed at Acceptance.

The second resurrection I have to agree with Ahwatukee on. The raising up is a well taught principle and it happens ON THE LAST DAY. The timing has absolutely nothing to do with the attack on Israel.

The FIRST resurrection will be of the tribulation martyrs/saints, recorded in Rev.20:4. They will be raised in their glorified, materialized physical bodies, in the very same way Jesus was resurrected. So they can reign and serve with Him, in the temple He will build, during His 1,000 year reign, according to Zech.6:12-13, in a human society. Which is completely different than what Paul wrote in 1 Thess.4:16, "The dead in Christ will RISE first." Those who die in Christ, all do so in their own turn/order, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:23, RAISED immediately by Jesus to heaven, in glorified spiritual bodies, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. In the same way those who are left on earth alive at His coming, will be translated, in their glorified bodies, changed in a twinkling of an eye, recorded in 1 Cor.15:44, 50, 51 and 52. Who will IMO, have power to materialize physically, as angels did in Gen.18, 19 and 32, as well as in Jos.5:12-15; Dan.3:24-25 and 12:7.

As I previously posted, the FIRST resurrection is of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4 and the SECOND resurrection will be at the GWTJ, where all those left in graves will be resurrected, 1,000 years later, , as recorded in Rev.20:5 and 11-15.


Quasar92

 

[garee]

The FIRST resurrection will be of the tribulation martyrs/saints, recorded in Rev.20:4.

The FIRST resurrection was (past tense) and continues on till the last day, in respect to its beginning which was with the Old Testament saints in whom the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God that worked in them as His promise to His glory.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory “that should follow”.

The entering of the souls into heaven witnessed by many angels as to where they are resting now that Christ finished demonstrating the spiritual work . .This is the first resurrection in which when one dies today they enter it in the same way by faith, just as the old testament saints.


The future prophecy...

Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

The fulfilled work of Christ that works in all born again children of God up until the last day the second resurrection when all receive their new promised incorruptible bodies, that will never die.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

The second and final resurrection will be on the last day, the end of this world system as we know it. We are in the last days marked by the renting of the veil.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[PlainWord]

The FIRST resurrection will be of the tribulation martyrs/saints, recorded in Rev.20:4. They will be raised in their glorified, materialized physical bodies, in the very same way Jesus was resurrected. So they can reign and serve with Him, in the temple He will build, during His 1,000 year reign, according to Zech.6:12-13, in a human society. Which is completely different than what Paul wrote in 1 Thess.4:16, "The dead in Christ will RISE first." Those who die in Christ, all do so in their own turn/order, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:23, RAISED immediately by Jesus to heaven, in glorified spiritual bodies, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. In the same way those who are left on earth alive at His coming, will be translated, in their glorified bodies, changed in a twinkling of an eye, recorded in 1 Cor.15:44, 50, 51 and 52. Who will IMO, have power to materialize physically, as angels did in Gen.18, 19 and 32, as well as in Jos.5:12-15; Dan.3:24-25 and 12:7.

As I previously posted, the FIRST resurrection is of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4 and the SECOND resurrection will be at the GWTJ, where all those left in graves will be resurrected, 1,000 years later, , as recorded in Rev.20:5 and 11-15.


Quasar92

It's nice to see we aren't too far off on this. However, read Rev 20:4-6 again this way:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

The above "they" are the disciples. This line confirms this verse:

Luke 22:30
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

So we see that the disciples will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. So, this is how God will judge Israel. Now look at the next passage as it deals with the Church:

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

They are souls meaning they are physically dead, but spiritually alive. They died for their witness to Jesus meaning they are part of the Church. Since they are souls and not in resurrected bodies, and since they are reigning with Jesus who is also in heaven, this can only mean that the 1,000 years take place in heaven.

The next section would read better if it read like this:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the first resurrection. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

The first resurrection is what got them to heaven. It refers back to the beheaded souls. They are HEADLESS!! They are not walking around on earth without HEADS during some earthly reign. If they were resurrected they would have their heads back on.

The "rest of the dead" (ALL UNBELIEVERS) do not live again until the 1,000 years are completed and until after God's Wrath is poured out.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power

All those who are saved are blessed and will not face the second death which is eternal separation from God.

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

How long has there been martyrs? Pushing 2,000 years, right? If we exclude John the Baptist, (which we probably should because he was before Christ and Paul made clear that Christ was the firstfruits) then the first martyr was Stephen. Stephen was killed somewhere around 33-36 AD. All of the other disciples besides John were killed before 70 AD. (Only John was alive to witness the destruction of the Temple and scattering of the Jews). So, we are coming up on the 2,000 year mark for some of the martyrs. But their reign doesn't end at the Second Coming, does it? Obviously, those who ISIS has beheaded just got to heaven. So the 1,000 years represents a long period of time in heaven for martyrs to join just as we see at the 5th seal.

 

[masmpg]

I am amazed at the splitting hairs over this pre trib rapture doctrine.<br>They cannot seem to figure out what the church is, who will be resurrected, caught up, or when it will even happen. The bible is very plain about who and when, but Darby and friends have deceived so many people into believing that this group or that group are "caught up" in some secret time when Jesus will come. A time that is contrary to all biblical references to His second coming.<br><br>I use to be a Hal Lindsay disciple until the Holy Spirit convicted me of the truth which is only found in the bible as we pray and study asking Him to reveal it. To argue these menial issues only proves that this doctrine of the "secret or pre-trib" rapture are straight from babylon. The wine of here fornication is what this confusion really is. It is harder, much harder to unlearn something then to learn the truth in the first place. The ONLY way we will be saved is by studying to show ourselves approved unto God. Not studying darby, Lehaye, Van Impe, Hal Lindsay. This is urgent! The Holy Spirit is our teacher not these false prophets. As you study these verses that point to the pri trib rapture pray, pray, pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal the true context of all of them. Claim the promise of John 14:26 and 16:13 as you read and study this issue. Many think this is a non salvation issue, but it has everything to do with salvation. If we are believing that we can receive the Holy Spirit while we believe and teach that obedience has nothing to do with salvation we are fatally mistaken. The Holy Spirit will convict us when we ask Him to, but He will not bless us while we are rebellious, and disobedient. Why do you think there are so many verses like this one&nbsp;1Corinthians:6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." For those who want to "overlook" verses like these and make the excuse that "I am saved" and this does not apply to me???? You will be very sorry on judgment day. If, even if you think you are saved, you are doing any of these or any of the other things that will cause us to "not inherit the kingdom of God" you keep doing these things you might want to pray to have the vail removed. The vail Paul writes about here&nbsp;2Corinthians:3:15: "But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."&nbsp;<br><br>I have nothing to gain by writing this. I do not write these things for my benefit. I risk friendships over these issues. I want to see everyone in heaven with me. To argue the rapture when we are following our preconceived ideas about the most important doctrine of all is deadly.