* A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD*

PlainWord · Oct 13, 2016

Are you saying that those beheaded by ISIS are not part of the church? If so, you should be ashamed of yourself.

These people, and those who were killed before them by the Ottomans, are certainly part of the Church!!!

...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast...

This is happening right now in Syria and Iraq. Have you not turned on your TV these past few years? The Beast was here before, went away and is now back. According to you, we should have already been raptured. According to me, the rapture happens on the last day of this age. Therefore my view is already being proven correct.

In about a year, the Wailing Wall will be defiled ending Jewish prayer. Maybe then you will seek my counsel.

pottersclay · Oct 13, 2016

There will be wars and rumors of war

Ahwatukee · Oct 14, 2016

Those beheaded above does not take place until the beast has been revealed, which has not yet happened. We have not yet seen the beast, his image nor his mark. Again, there is nothing in any of the scriptures that identifies anyone as being ISIS, Islam or the Ottomans. You are just misapplying the scriptures to them without anything to support it, as usual. These who are beheaded are the great tribulation saints who come out of every nation, tribe, people and language. This would cover all Gentiles and not just ISIS, Islam and the Ottomans.

The wailing wall has nothing to do with anything. It is the holy place within the temple that the abomination is going to be set up. Maybe when you see some new political leader appear on CNN making a seven year covenant with Israel, then you will understand that we have been telling you the truth.

tanakh · Oct 14, 2016

PlainWord said:

In what translation was the 70th week of Daniel invoked relative to 2 Thes 2:3? Let me guess, it was in the notes of the Scofield reference Bible? I hate to break it to you but "NOTES" are not part of the text. I don't recall any Biblical teaching where Cyrus I. Scofield was given divine inspiration to add anything to God's Word!! In fact, he may have a little answering to do for all the problems he caused with his dispensation theory that he borrowed from Darby.

Aside from that. The below is from my Interlinear Bible showing the original Greek text along with the KJV translation. You will NOT see any reference to Daniel's 70th week. This version is older than Scofield and more accurate by a mile.

View attachment 160128

So please answer my question, how does the 70th week of Daniel have anything to do with the Great Tribulation since it says clearly that those 70 weeks were for Daniel's People and their Holy City (Jerusalem)? Whose got the bullet hole in the foot now

?

Sorry brother, I shouldn't pick on you. I realize Scofield was the man in his day and this is what everyone was taught back then. Most churches don't even teach the rapture anymore. So many older Christians are obsessed by it thinking it could happen any day like the clouds would open and Jesus would come to take us all home. This is what my mom and dad think.

Its sad that so many don't realize that the real rapture happens on the last day of this earth age just after the resurrection. But I don't see any harm in you believing as you do brother. So, God bless you.

An interesting and informative book I would recommend is Christian Zionism and the Scofield Reference Bible (A Critical Evaluation of Dispensational Theology) by David Lance Dean.

This book included information about the backgrounds of both Darby and Schofield that you wont find in the notes and
appear to be kept quiet about.

Quasar92 · Oct 14, 2016

PlainWord said:

ISIS are all Muslim and worship Allah! They have NEVER been any part of the body of Christ, His Church! You are the one who needs to be ashamed of yourself for continually propagating false information. Capiche!

Quasar92

PlainWord · Oct 15, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Who said the Church will behead Christians? Where are you getting such nonsense? The Church isn't the Beast, ISLAM is the beast. ISLAM is the religion which beheads. Comprende???

PlainWord · Oct 15, 2016

tanakh said:

Thanks. I will order a copy now. I see it is available on Amazon. I can't believe Quasar liked you post. I guess he didn't read the synopsis which I cut and paste below for him.

The author has purposed in the writing of Christian Zionism and the Scofield Reference Bible to provide an objective analysis of the multiple doctrinal as well as prophetic issues raised in the extensive notes and commentaries included with the scripture text of the various and changing printings of the Scofield Reference Bible. Through an objective examination of this work of Cyrus Scofield and his editorial committee, many obvious conflicts and contradictions are revealed when compared with what the scriptures actually say. Problems become more apparent when you realize that several revisions have been made over a century with most of those coming after Scofield's death. The copyright belonged to Oxford University Press, and yet they continued to show Cyrus Scofield as editor many years after his death. Dispensational theology has received a very broad acceptance among conservative and evangelical Christians. Yet when honestly scrutinized, we find that many tenets of doctrine, as well as prophesy presented, are in contradiction to what the scriptures clearly teach. An examination of the book will provide the reader with ample evidence that what has been asserted here is in fact true.

Quasar, if you want to send me a private message with your mailing address, I'll send you the book to read as I likely already agree with its conclusions.

PlainWord · Oct 15, 2016

Do you not know yet what the beast is? It was revealed in 1299. The beast is very old and is becoming very active again.

You speak from pure ignorance on the subject. Not surprised you missed it because you are waiting for Catholic priests to start running around with machetes.

What is the fortress of the sanctuary? What is left of it? The word, "temple" is not found in relation to the Abomination of Desolation. You sir, do NOT know your scriptures.

This is a fallacy, a false interpretation of Dan 9:27 and will not happen. Even if it did, I would not see it on CNN. I never watch the Clinton News Network.

PlainWord · Oct 15, 2016

I want to take a break from our usual debate and ask all of you to join me in prayer for a new Christian in India who at this moment is being held by Muslim police. His name is Rias Muhammad. He was led to the Lord by a dear friend of mine a few weeks ago. His part of India is controlled by a Muslim majority. His Muslim parents turned him in. He is now in prison being spat upon and beaten. So far he is staying true to Jesus and will not renounce him.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

Sadly this is happening all over the Muslim world. This young man was given an hour to convert back to Islam and renounce Jesus or "suffer the consequences." I ask all of you to pray for him. Thank you!

Quasar92 · Oct 15, 2016

PlainWord said:

It's no wonder your views come straight out of la la land! I never made any such idiotic claims.Don't you understand what you read?

Quasar92

PlainWord · Oct 16, 2016

Quasar92 said:

I don't understand what you write because it is false teaching right out of Moody and Dallas. You really should leave prophesy alone because you understand none of it. Having been raised in an Evangelical Christian home and church, I can tell you their views on eschatology are whacked out beyond belief. It's not that they aren't good Christians, they are. They are a bit too legalistic and have a "holier than thou attitude", but aside from that my main complaint is their eschatology which is utter and complete nonsense.

All you guys want to do is discuss the rapture. It's like a NFL football team who is getting ready for their first game and all they can talk about is the Super Bowl ignoring the 16 regular season games and play-offs that they must first navigate. You guys want to take everything literally but then invent 2,000 year gaps, split the one return of Christ into two, build multiple future temples, bring back animal sacrifices, split the church up with some being the Bride and others not part of the Bride, etc, etc. You have Christ bouncing back and forth between heaven and earth like a pin ball, multiple resurrections, people floating off to heaven just to avoid an attack on Israel which you mistakenly think is an attack on the planet. You have God causing the Great Tribulation when it is Satan. You have God's wrath as being the GT, when it comes after it. You have computer chips as a mark, the Roman Catholic Church as the ones who beheads fellow Christians while ignoring the false religion actually beheading now. You invent, invent and invent yet you think your views are pure as driven snow. You mislead the entire world making movies and writing books about how Christ returns to take some, and leave some then the whole planet goes up in smoke. No wonder they will mock you when this doesn't happen.

You guys are dangerous and do a great disservice to the Body with all your rapture nonsense. By the time you figure out that you were wrong, nobody will listen to you anymore. Instead of telling the Church to not worry, we are going to fly away, you need to be telling the church to get right with the Lord and prepare for the abuse that is coming and already here for our brothers and sisters in much of the world.

We are under severe spiritual attack. But your kind isn't doing anything about it because "WE ARE GOING TO FLY AWAY." But NO FLY AWAY is taught. The church FALLS AWAY, it doesn't FLY AWAY!!!! How does it "fall away?" Because it has been programmed to ignore the threat. There are two threats actively attacking the church 1. ISLAM, 2. PROGRESSIVES or LIBERALISM. They are taking no prisoners. They want us dead - literally dead!! We need to be talking about that and not the last day of this earth age since many of us won't be alive to see it.

Ahwatukee · Oct 16, 2016

How ironic, because that is what many of us think about you! You think that you teach the truth, but all they are is misapplied scripture to support your false teachings. And some day you will find out just how false they are. I wish that you would stop spreading these lies, because I am grieved to read them. So far Quasar92 has been pretty much right on. You on the other hand butcher God's word by distorting and misapplying scripture.

PlainWord · Oct 16, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

I know that's how you feel about me. Your views grieve me just as much. You have no Biblical support for anything you teach, it is all 100% fabrication. I teach the Plain Word, hence the name. I teach exactly what the Bible says which is why I suspect you and Quasar don't want to hear it.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

I suspect the reason for the scoffers is the pre-trib nonsense you guys have been spewing forth. My view, which places the rapture on the last day, can not account for the reason the world scoffs, while your view does. You guys have the louder voice, but loud isn't always right. You are discrediting us and will bring shame upon us once you start singing a different tune when the Man of Sin is revealed and you're still here. What do they call it, "Crying wolf?"

Quasar92 · Oct 17, 2016

PlainWord said:

Listen up, PlainWord! You have a serious problem of rejecting Scripture in favor of deception formulated from false teachers. Who are questionably not born again Christians in the first place. Or the Holy Spirit would have taught them all things, including things yet to come, as recorded in Jn.16:13. Or, they were never gifted by the Holy Spirit with the gift of Prophecy. Yet fancy themselves as gifted no-it-all's who spew distorted oracles of end times, in a continual propagation of false prophecy, deceiving others with it, in copious quantity!

You need to start listening to those who have the earned qualifications about end times prophecy and to accept the Scriptures that support their teachings! The following are the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church/ Read it and study it very carefully so you fully understand it:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul:

Mt.24:31:

[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:

"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:

"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:16. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thess.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures. As well as the fact that Jesus revealed to John that the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4/5, seven years later, is the FIRST one

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. "Therefore encourage each other with these words." Verse 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure/rapture] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The departure/rapture of the Church in verse 3 confirmed:

In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Verse 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!

The above Scriptural documentation of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, is fully endorsed by the following esteemed men of God, who are teachers of every walk of Christian life: It's time to man-up, PlainWord, and admit you have been wrong, and start respecting those who are qualified to teach the Scriptures, as Ahwatukee and I have been trying to do.

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Oct 17, 2016

In my above post, the link to the difference between the rapture of he Church, and the second coming of Christ, is faulty. Please accept my apology. Here is a working link for it, from Thomas Ice, PhD.:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf

Quasar07

PlainWord · Oct 17, 2016

Here is a link to 170 Churches and organizations in 12 countries who preach the Post-Trib position which is the only one that has Christ returning once.

Post-Tribulation Directory

The early church believed in a Post-tribulation Rapture - and held that belief for a little over 1800 years.
For example, early church teachers by the names of Ireneaus (130-202AD) and Hippolytus (birthdate unknown-235AD), second and third generation disciples of John the Revelator, wrote of the rise of the Antichrist and of the coming of the Lord from a Post-tribulation point-of-view.

They both taught that the Antichrist will reign on earth and persecute the Church right up to the return of the Lord in all his power and glory.

In his book, "Against Heresies," Irenaeus, writing about the Antichrist, said, "His tyranny shall last three years and six months, during which the saints shall be put to flight" (Ch. xxv.4). Later, in the same book, he said, "The resurrection of the just takes place after the coming of Antichrist" (Ch. xxxv.1).

[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] Hippolytus wrote a number of books; and in one called a "Commentary on the Book of Daniel," speaking of the Antichrist, he said, "When he has conquered all, he will prove himself a terrible and savage tyrant; and will cause tribulation and persecution to the saints, exalting himself against them" (Ch. 7). In the same book, referring to the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, he said, "The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during (that time) and desolate the world" (Ch. 11).

What did Christ say? There is nothing new under the Sun and pre-trib is new. This from this:

Post Tribulation Belief
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]Biblical Evidence of a Post-Tribulation Rapture
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] The apostle Paul wrote about the Rapture in two places in scripture: I Thessalonians 4:16-17 where he described the event; and I Corinthians 15:51-54 where he told us when it happens.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In I Thessalonians, he said, (1) [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"the Lord himself shall descend fromheaven with a shout,"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] (2) [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"with the voice of the archangel,"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] and (3) [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"with the trump of God."[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] Then, the Rapture of the Church will take place.
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In I Corinthians, he said that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"the trump of God"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] that accompanies the Rapture will take place at the sound of the [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"last trump."[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] He said it will be the last trumpet sound to be made. Obviously, that is at the end!
[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] Jesus spoke of the [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"end of the world"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] and the [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"signs of his coming"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. If you read through any one - or all - of those three chapters in the Bible, looking for the things that accompany the Rapture: a shout of the Lord, the voice of the archangel, or a trumpet sound, you won't find anything like the Rapture until you come to the end: until immediately after the Tribulation.
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus said, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... the Son of man... shall send his angels with a great sound of a[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]trumpet... and gather together his elect."[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] This is the Rapture! This is the sound of the Last Trump - [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"immediately after the tribulation."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]In Mark 13:24-27, the wording is slightly different, but the meaning in exactly the same. And Luke chose not to speak of the Rapture at all in his Gospel.
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In the Gospel of John, referring to the Rapture of the Church as "the resurrection," or a "raising up" of his people, Jesus told us three times that it would be at the [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"last day."[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]He said, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"This is my father's will... that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again at[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]the last day"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Jn. 6:39).[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In the very next verse, he repears his statement that he [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"will raise him up at the last day" [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Jn. 6:40).[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] And, as if we still didn't get his meaning, he says it one more time: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"No man can come to me except[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]the Father... draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Jn. 6:44).
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]One of the best evidences that the Church will be on earth through the Tribulation is that the Bible clearly states that - just as Irenaeus and Hippolytus taught - the Antichrist will persecute the Church after he comes to power. Since that's true, it makes sense that the Church has to be on earth for him to persecute.
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In the New Testament, the word [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"saints" [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]is used over fifty (50) times; and in every instance, the word refers to the Church: the followers of Jesus Christ.
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In the Old Testament, in his prophecy of the end times, the prophet Daniel made it clear that the Antichrist will persecute those same people: the Church on earth. Speaking symbolically of the Antichrist as a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"horn:"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] a person of power, he said, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"The same horn made war with the saints"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Dan. 7:21).[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] Later in the same chapter, he said the Antichrist [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"shall wear out the saints of[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]the most High"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Dan. 7:25).
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] The Book of Revelation in the New Testament confirms and verifies the words of Daniel. In the chapter that describes the Antichrist and the Mark of the Beast, speaking of the Antichrist, the Revelation says, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"It was given to him[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] (the Antichrist) [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]to make war with the saints"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Rev. 13:7).
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]Some preachers and Bible teachers say that the Church will not go through the Tribulation because - according to I Thessalonians 5:9 - the Church is [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"not[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]appointed"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] to God's wrath that will be poured out on the earth during part - or all - of the Tribulation. In that passage, Paul said, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]However, the truth is that Paul is not talking about the Rapture of the Church or about the Tribulation in this passage. He is simply stating the Gospel message; that we are not subject to God's punishment if we are saved by our Lord Jesus Christ.
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] The Church will not be subject to - or appointed to - the wrath of God that will come on the earth during the Tribulation. God will protect - and provide for - his children on earth through that time just as he protected and provided for the Children of Israel as they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.
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[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In the second half of Chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation when the "woman" comes to represent the New Covenant faithful few, the Overcomers, the church on earth we are told twice that God will care for [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]her and for [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"the remnant of her seed[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]which keep the commandments of God, and have[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]the testimony of Jesus Christ"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Rev. 12:17).[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] In the Revelation, we're told that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]God"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Rev. 12:6).[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] And, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"To the woman were given two wings of an eagle, that[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]she might fly into the wilderness, into her place"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif](Rev. 12:14).

Quasar, we can do this all day. Neither of us if going to back down so let's drop the back and forth on this topic. We don't need to create any more contention. You won't have long to wait to see how wrong you are.
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TMS · Oct 17, 2016

i posted this in pre-trib rapture so sorry if you read it twice.
This is why i believe in one second coming that is seen and known by everyone.

It does come down to interpretation in the end and there is arguments for both sides, but when i research the history and the making of the pre-trib theory and the number of assumptions that need to be made for it to work i'm convinced it is wrong.
If God wanted us to believe in a pre-trib theory it would have been written clearly in His word.
It is clear that Jesus will come and gather His saints in person and every eye will see him.

This is not a presumption..

1. every eye shall see him when He comes. It hard to not see lightning.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2. The saved that are dead and those that are alive will meet the Lord in the air when He comes.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

3. He shall be seen with power and great glory when He comes, and gather the elect together.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

4. When Jesus comes the wicked will want to die. Want to hide from the face of Jesus.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

This isn't an assumption, it is how God described Jesus's coming and it is clear that the whole Earth will see Jesus and that it isn't going to be a secret.

You can twist scripture and presume that it means something else but be honest and ask yourself is their solid evidence when you take the presumption away.

Ahwatukee · Oct 17, 2016

The above is not a true statement! God's word is written such a way that, for topics such as end-time events, requires cross-referencing and comparting scripture in order to get the answer. It is written this way in order to for us to search the scriptures out diligently, which pleases God. It is by this method that the answer as to when the gathering of the church takes place in relation to God's wrath is obtained. Consequently, these are very things that are being distorted by false teachers. They are in the guise of Christians doing the foot-work for Satan, spreading false teachings.

By the way, all of those highlighted in red have do with Christ's return to the earth to end the age, where the gathering of the church is a completely separate event. It is a common error to confuse these two events.

Quasar92 · Oct 17, 2016

PlainWord said:

Meaningless lay person opinion the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, are false teachings, is flat out calling them all liars. As well as all the esteemed theologians and qualified teachers of the Bible who fully endorse it!

What you have posted above comes straight from the RCC who bought into Amillennialism, promoted by Augustine and Origen, that deny the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth as well as the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Holding the Biblical teaching of them both hostage for more than 1,600 years.

Furthermore, you fail to recognize the fact that Jesus ministry was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, which He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

The following is Scriptural proof of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church and of the TWO comings of Jesus yet to take place! Not just ONE! Review it carefully and see how much of what you have posted is pure false prophecy!

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

Quasar92

masmpg · Oct 19, 2016

popeye said:

Here is the same context from Mark which tells us that they were gathered from the four winds from earth and heaven AFTER THE TRIBULATION!
I still have not seen any proof text from you for the pre trib rapture, and you will never find any because there are none.

M'r:13:24: But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
M'r:13:25: And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
M'r:13:26: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
M'r:13:27: And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

*** A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD***

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* A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD*