*** A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD***

[Quasar92]

Some say that the verses that talk about the time of testing coming on the whole world to test those who belong to it, and our being told to pray we will be found worthy to escape that time of testing, and the church that is told it will be kept from that time of testing in Rev, (while another church is told it will be thrown into tribulation and its children will die from pestilence), means to pray just that we will be kept safe through the testing.

This makes it sound and appear that those who are kept safe are those who escape the famines, pestilences, food and water shortages, and beheading for not taking the mark. In other words, those who remain alive through it all. This makes it appear that those found worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the whole world to test those who belong to the world are those who are not beheaded and that those who are beheaded are those not found worthy to escape that time of testing.

So to say it means just to pray that you will be found worthy to be kept safe through the time of testing rather than to pray you will be found worthy to escape that time of testing, does not make good sense to me. In fact, considering the awfulness of Gods' wrath (painful stings that torture for 5 months, lack of good drinking water and severe food shortage from famine, earthquakes, sores all over your body, pestilences and diseases, etc.), to be beheaded quickly and soon would be a mercy. So then, it seems that one would pray to be beheaded, not to be kept alive in that nightmare. You would be praying to be found worthy to be beheaded rather than praying to be found worthy to be kept alive through it.

To be kept alive through all that wrath of satan AND wrath of God would not seem to be escaping that time of testing coming on the whole world to test those who belong to the world. So I don't see where "kept from" or "being found worthy to escape" can be even remotely sensical to change to "be kept safe through."

A review of posts 1237 and 1240 provide you with the proper interpretation for the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The Church does not go through any part of the seven year tribulation. When reading the prophetic Scriptures, you need to identify who is being addressed in the text you are reading. Rev.3:10 pertains to the Church Jesus will keep from the hour of testing. The hour of testing is found in Rev.18, pertaining to the Great Tribulation, i.e. the final 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation. Lk.21:36 is addressed to Israel and of Jesus to heed His words, that they may be considered worthy of escaping the tribulation.


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

The Church does not go through any part of the seven year tribulation.

Correct. Because there is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 45 day tribulation and it only applies to Israel as Daniel 11 teaches.

Rev.3:10 pertains to the Church Jesus will keep from the hour of testing.

This is the wrath of God and of course it isn't aimed at the Church. Those who "dwell on the earth" is society (non Christian).

The hour of testing is found in Rev.18, pertaining to the Great Tribulation, i.e. the final 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation.

Nope. This is the Wrath of God which comes after the GT as Eze 38 explains. The GT is the all out attack against Israel by Gog and it's allies. Eze 38 makes this clear and Jesus confirms it when He tells us in Luke "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and in Mat 24 and Mark 13 when He tells "those in Judea to flee." Nobody else is told to flee.

Lk.21:36 is addressed to Israel and of Jesus to heed His words, that they may be considered worthy of escaping the tribulation.

This applies again to God's Wrath. Jesus gathers His when He returns after the Tribulation. This is when the wrath is poured out. Those who escape are with the Lord.

 

[Quasar92]

Plainword

Previously posted by PlainWord:

Correct. Because there is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 45 day tribulation and it only applies to Israel as Daniel 11 teaches.

This is the wrath of God and of course it isn't aimed at the Church. Those who "dwell on the earth" is society (non Christian).

Nope. This is the Wrath of God which comes after the GT as Eze 38 explains. The GT is the all out attack against Israel by Gog and it's allies. Eze 38 makes this clear and Jesus confirms it when He tells us in Luke "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and in Mat 24 and Mark 13 when He tells "those in Judea to flee." Nobody else is told to flee.

This applies again to God's Wrath. Jesus gathers His when He returns after the Tribulation. This is when the wrath is poured out. Those who escape are with the Lord.

The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel is based upon the Hebrew marriage week of 7 years as recorded in Gen.29:18-30. The prophecy, therefore is for 70 weeks times 7, or for a total of 490 years. 69 weeks, through Dan.9:26 have been fulfilled. Through 483 years, up to Jesus crucifixion and 40 years beyond, to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. This the prophecy Jesus amplifies in His Olivet Discourse in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21, and is what is known as the SEVEN YEAR tribulation. The prophecy pertains to Israel exclusively and has nothing whatever to do with the Church.

The Church is CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED to be with Jesus in heaven, BEFORE the above tribulation begins, as documented in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Jesus angels will gather His TWO ELECTS: Israel, from the four winds and His Church: From one end of the heavens to the other, who return with Jesus from heaven, in His second coming to the earth, recorded in Rev.19:14. . Confirming Zech.14:4-5.

As I previously posted, the following are the Scriptural facts as posted!

A review of posts 1237 and 1240 provide you with the proper interpretation for the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The Church does not go through any part of the seven year tribulation. When reading the prophetic Scriptures, you need to identify who is being addressed in the text you are reading. Rev.3:10 pertains to the Church Jesus will keep from the hour of testing. The hour of testing is found in Rev.18, pertaining to the Great Tribulation, i.e. the final 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation. Lk.21:36 is addressed to Israel and of Jesus to heed His words, that they may be considered worthy of escaping the tribulation.


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel is based upon the Hebrew marriage week of 7 years as recorded in Gen.29:18-30.

You are comparing Daniel's 70 weeks (490 years) to the 7 years Jacob served Laban for Rachel? What specific passage ties them or what about the two passages ties them, the 7s? "Seven" appears over 600 times in the Bible. I see absolutely no connection between the 7 years Jacob served Laban to the 490 years that were determined for Israel.

Regardless, we've been over this ground many times. You need to get out of Daniel 9 and into Daniel 11 and 12. The Abomination of Desolation isn't even discussed in Dan 9. In Dan 9 it says this: ...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate... Which means, "because of their flood of sins, He will make the Temple desolate." The "he" here was Jesus (although He used Titus to do it).

If you want to learn about the REAL Great Tribulation turn to Mat 24 and find the trigger for it.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”

We find the REAL Abomination of Desolation first mentioned here in Dan 11 and you never ever discuss it:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Once the Abomination of Desolation is placed at the sanctuary fortress (AKA Wailing Wall) we see the battle waging in Israel:

...yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

Seven years is a lot more than "many days." You see, Daniel doesn't say "...yet for seven years, they shall fall by sword," He says, "many days." We see exactly how many days "many days" are in Dan 12:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Clock starts at:


defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily prayers

On day 1,290 we come to:

abomination of desolation is set up.

According to Jesus, the war which He calls "Great Tribulation" begins immediately. It begins so soon after this that you don't have time to get anything out of your house, instead you must immediately flee.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

45 days later, those who survive are blessed at day 1,335. This is the day Jesus returns and stops the blood shed. However, we don't really come to day 1,335, because of this verse:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Under your 7 year Tribulation deal, none of the above from Dan 11-12 would make any sense since you can't find 7 years being discussed.

I hope I was able to help you see things correctly this time?

 

[PlainWord]

The Church is CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED to be with Jesus in heaven, BEFORE the above tribulation begins, as documented in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

None of these passages teach what you are trying to serve. None of these passages even hint at the Great Tribulation. That is mistake #1. 2 Thes 2 is the only of these passages that give us a reference point and there it is that Christ will not return until AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

The passage in John 14 makes clear that Christ will come back to earth and when He does, we will be with Him. He doesn't say anything about taking us back to heaven or going back Himself. He comes here to reign. It's a one-way trip. The rooms or mansions in heaven are for those who die before He returns. We are pushing 2,000 years worth of souls up there now. The 1 Thes 4 passage doesn't contain a reference point in Chapter 4 but since there were no chapter or verse numbers in the letters you can keep reading into Chapter 5 and see that Paul was discussing the Day of the Lord, and not some separate pretrib return.

 

[Quasar92]

You are comparing Daniel's 70 weeks (490 years) to the 7 years Jacob served Laban for Rachel? What specific passage ties them or what about the two passages ties them, the 7s? "Seven" appears over 600 times in the Bible. I see absolutely no connection between the 7 years Jacob served Laban to the 490 years that were determined for Israel.

Regardless, we've been over this ground many times. You need to get out of Daniel 9 and into Daniel 11 and 12. The Abomination of Desolation isn't even discussed in Dan 9. In Dan 9 it says this: ...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate... Which means, "because of their flood of sins, He will make the Temple desolate." The "he" here was Jesus (although He used Titus to do it).

If you want to learn about the REAL Great Tribulation turn to Mat 24 and find the trigger for it.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”

We find the REAL Abomination of Desolation first mentioned here in Dan 11 and you never ever discuss it:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Once the Abomination of Desolation is placed at the sanctuary fortress (AKA Wailing Wall) we see the battle waging in Israel:

...yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

Seven years is a lot more than "many days." You see, Daniel doesn't say "...yet for seven years, they shall fall by sword," He says, "many days." We see exactly how many days "many days" are in Dan 12:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Clock starts at:


defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily prayers

On day 1,290 we come to:

abomination of desolation is set up.

According to Jesus, the war which He calls "Great Tribulation" begins immediately. It begins so soon after this that you don't have time to get anything out of your house, instead you must immediately flee.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

45 days later, those who survive are blessed at day 1,335. This is the day Jesus returns and stops the blood shed. However, we don't really come to day 1,335, because of this verse:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Under your 7 year Tribulation deal, none of the above from Dan 11-12 would make any sense since you can't find 7 years being discussed.

I hope I was able to help you see things correctly this time?

[SUP]The above contribution is a convoluted Amillennial allegorical fabrication of the Scriptures from an unqualified source in teaching the Bible![/SUP]

[SUP]Review the following for the purpose of the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan.9:24-27![/SUP]

[SUP]70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel of 490 years was based on the reasons for their 70 year exile to Babylon in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum
[/SUP]
[SUP]The following was your first error in denying the AOB appearing in Dan.9:27, in which it most certainly does! Scroll down for more:
[/SUP]
[SUP]Dan.9:27 "[/SUP]He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven[SUP]][/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"[/SUP]
[SUP]Dan.11:27-35 The king in the north is Antiochus IV Epiphanes[/SUP]

Dan.11:35-45 Is the three "he's" of Dan.9:27, the beast out of the sea, Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, recorded in Rev.13:1-2.

Dan.12:5 "Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?” 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. [3.5 years/1260 days] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”[parenthesis mine]
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."
Jesus returns in His second coming , at the end of the time, times and half a time/3.5 years/1260 days, ending the seven year tribulation, recorded in Rev,19:11-21.


1290 days to the first resurrection to add the tribulation saints as priests in His Millennial kingdom, recorded in Rev.20:4 and 6.


1335 days to the establishment of Jesus Millennial kingdom on earth, recorded in Rev.20:6, fulfilling Zech.6:12, 13, Mt.6:10 and Acts 1:6.


You remain refuted!




Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

None of these passages teach what you are trying to serve. None of these passages even hint at the Great Tribulation. That is mistake #1. 2 Thes 2 is the only of these passages that give us a reference point and there it is that Christ will not return until AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

The passage in John 14 makes clear that Christ will come back to earth and when He does, we will be with Him. He doesn't say anything about taking us back to heaven or going back Himself. He comes here to reign. It's a one-way trip. The rooms or mansions in heaven are for those who die before He returns. We are pushing 2,000 years worth of souls up there now. The 1 Thes 4 passage doesn't contain a reference point in Chapter 4 but since there were no chapter or verse numbers in the letters you can keep reading into Chapter 5 and see that Paul was discussing the Day of the Lord, and not some separate pretrib return.

You have an affinity of shooting yourself in the foot! See the following to prove the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, john and Paul, about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church. It is clear, you were never given the gift of prophecy:

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thess.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Verse 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Verse 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Verse 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thess.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

From: http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:
[/B]
In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

 

[bluto]

Come on quasar, why do you continue to quote passages to support the pre-trib rapture by taking them out of context? The very first verse you quoted was Matthew 24:31, "Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out."

Then you say, "Read on to find out." How about you reading back to verses 29,30 to find out? Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days The Sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give itsw light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. VS30, "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn (except the pre-tribers because they will be up in heaven eating their leg of lamb marriange supper?) and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

Did you get that quasar? What happens after the tribulation is then at vs31, He will send forth His angels etc. It seems to me that your the one shooting yourself in the foot.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Bluto,

The very first verse you quoted was Matthew 24:31, "Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other

The on-going problem is the lack of understanding that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end that age are two separate events. Mt.24:29-31 is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. The reference to the angels who the Lord sends out to "gather His elect from the four winds from one end of the heaven to the other," is referring to the angels going throughout the earth and collecting those who are still in their mortal bodies and will have survived through the entire seven years. This is not a resurrection! This is the end of the age and is synonymous with the parable of the gathering of the weeds and wheat. according to the parable, when Christ returns to end the age, he will send out His angels and they will "first" collect the weeds. These are also the "ones taken" from the other parable. The angels take them to where Jesus will be at Armageddon, where they will all be killed by that double-edged sword, where the birds will eat their flesh as recorded in Mt.13:24-29, 36-43, Lk.17:30-37, Rev.19:21

Mt.24:29-31 is the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, which will have take place at least seven years prior. This saying "He will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other " is not referring to a resurrection, but the gathering of Israel and the great tribulation saints who will still be alive when the Lord returns to end the age. If you don't believe that, here is the same type of saying in the old testament:

"Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The Lord Almighty is mustering an army for war. They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens—the Lord and the weapons of his wrath— to destroy the whole country. So as you can see by the scripture "from the ends of the heavens" refers to a great multitude coming from far away lands and has nothing to do with people being caught up in the air. It is just a metaphor referring to "the ends of or the four corners of the earth."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Come on quasar, why do you continue to quote passages to support the pre-trib rapture by taking them out of context? The very first verse you quoted was Matthew 24:31, "Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out."

Then you say, "Read on to find out." How about you reading back to verses 29,30 to find out? Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days The Sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give itsw light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. VS30, "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn (except the pre-tribers because they will be up in heaven eating their leg of lamb marriange supper?) and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

Did you get that quasar? What happens after the tribulation is then at vs31, He will send forth His angels etc. It seems to me that your the one shooting yourself in the foot. IN GOD THE SON, Bluto

The gathering of the Church:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

The end of the age:

Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the
stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man
in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of
heaven, with power and great glory.And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his
elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

======================================

The gathering of the church and the Lords return to end the age, are two separate events, which take place at different times.

 

[bluto]

Sorry, but I stand by what I said, or should I say what Jesus Christ said. There are not two separatge events, which take place at different times. Matthew 24:29,30 come before Matthew 24:31 which quasar is "assuming" this is a pre-trib rapture verse just like you. The reason I know this is from Matthew 24:3 where the disciples ask this question?

"And as He was sitting on the Mount of Ovives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your Coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE." Jesus then goes through the events in order at at Matthew 24:15 is the "tip off" verse as to what we are to look for which will usher in the tribulation events. "Therefore, when you see The Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand) understand what ahwatukee?)

In light of everything Jesus said, based on the question the disciples ask Him, where are you going to place the pre-trib rapture? I would love to know?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ahwatukee]

Sorry, but I stand by what I said, or should I say what Jesus Christ said. There are not two separatge events, which take place at different times. Matthew 24:29,30 come before Matthew 24:31 which quasar is "assuming" this is a pre-trib rapture verse just like you. The reason I know this is from Matthew 24:3 where the disciples ask this question?

"And as He was sitting on the Mount of Ovives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your Coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE." Jesus then goes through the events in order at at Matthew 24:15 is the "tip off" verse as to what we are to look for which will usher in the tribulation events. "Therefore, when you see The Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand) understand what ahwatukee?)

In light of everything Jesus said, based on the question the disciples ask Him, where are you going to place the pre-trib rapture? I would love to know?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bluto, your problem is the same. The question that the disciples asked was regarding the signs leading up to the Lord's return to end the age. The gathering of the church takes place prior to this event. In fact, Rev19:11-21 shows those who will have been previously resurrected and caught up, following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing their white linen, fine and clean. When you put the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord comes to end the age, it would mean that the living church at that time would go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the wrath of God. Believers are appointed to suffer that wrath, for Jesus rescued us from it - 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9. Furthermore, what Jesus provided in the Olivet discourse is referring to Israel and involves the rest of the world.

Until you understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end age, as being two separate events, everything else will be in error.

 

[mpaper345]

The Bible says that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ,until there is a falling away first,the first three and one half years will accomplish that,and the man of sin claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period.

Why,because the world can still repent of their sins during the first three and one half years,so as long as the world has a chance to be saved,the saints will remain on earth,the truth.

When the beast blasphemes against God and His tabernacle,and all that dwell in heaven,which is in the middle of the seven years period,it is obvious that the saints are still on earth,why,because the beast does not need to go against Christianity to convince the world not to follow that pesky false belief if the saints were not on earth.If the saints were gone there would be no use of going against Christianity if the saints are not on earth,which represent Christianity.

When the world takes the mark of the beast,then the world cannot repent of their sins,and salvation is no longer available to them,ahhhh,now the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

But wait,the Bible says the beast makes war against the saints,and prevails against them,and in Daniel he wears out the saints,and they are given in to his hands for the last three and one half years,and he shall destroy the holy and mighty people,and when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all things in Daniel shall be finished,which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father.

Why,because God will not give up on the world,until they give up on Him,and will let them go against the saints with physical warfare,and even let them go as far as going against Israel,which is part of the wrath of God,after God brought them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which when they get to that point,that is when God says that His fury has come up in His face,and then He will go against the world,and save Israel,and defeat the world.

It is obvious that the saints will go through the 7 years period,because God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and will let them go against the truth all the way to attacking Israel,after God brought them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and on that journey to that point,the saints,which are in the truth,are in the journey leading up to the battle of Armageddon,so they are fought against physically,and defeated,because God is allowing the world to go against the truth all the way to them attacking Israel.

But although the resurrection happens after the beast scatters the power of the holy people,for he has power to continue for the last three and one half years,which that power can only come from God,many saints during the course of that three and one half years will have departed this earth by way of being beheaded,for not going along with the beast's agenda.

The saints will go through the 7 years period,but not all,for many will perish before they get to that point,from a world that cannot stand their depending,and believing,in a personal God,and Jesus is the only one that gives a spiritual benefit,for they are going by the belief that people have no authority above them,and each one is responsible for their own spiritual evolution by the power of nature.

It will be alright,for Jesus said do not fear them which can kill the body,but can do no more,but fear God,which some people might be afraid of the tribulation,and not want to believe it,for who would want to go through that,for our mind does not want to think of such a thing.

But the Bible says that those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Him for a 1000 years.

Is this the love of God,that although they have to go through the great tribulation for the last three and one half years,the Bible says beheaded,but does not mention tortured,so is God only allowing the beast to behead them,but will not allow the beast to physically harm them in a torture type of way,which the beast might no want to torture,but quickly get those troublesome Christians off this earth.

And what is being beheaded,but a pain free form of execution,bada boom bada bing,head gone,you are with Christ.

So do not worry,put your head under that guillotine,and it will be over quickly with no pain.

No pain,lots of gain.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Mpaper345,

But wait,the Bible says the beast makes war against the saints,and prevails against them,and in Daniel he wears out the saints,and they are given in to his hands for the last three and one half years,and he shall destroy the holy and mighty people,and when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all things in Daniel shall be finished,which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father.

But the Bible says that those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Him for a 1000 years.

Just a quick note, the saints that are being referred above, are those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17 and is not referring to the church.

 

[masmpg]

Here is that one verse that states that after the tribulation Jesus will come. It is found in Matthew:24:29: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." There can be NO mistaking this.

 

[PlainWord]

[SUP]The above contribution is a convoluted Amillennial allegorical fabrication of the Scriptures from an unqualified source in teaching the Bible![/SUP]

This from a member of the Flat Earth Society.

 

[popeye]

Here is that one verse that states that after the tribulation Jesus will come. It is found in Matthew:24:29: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." There can be NO mistaking this.

Amen

That is one thing we all seem to agree on,that He does return after the GT.

When will postribs acknowledge thet;
1) he returns WITH HIS SAINTS rev 19

2) that verse in Mat 24 says the elect are gathered from heaven,not earth,and angels do the gathering,not Jesus.

 

[Quasar92]

Come on quasar, why do you continue to quote passages to support the pre-trib rapture by taking them out of context? The very first verse you quoted was Matthew 24:31, "Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out."

Then you say, "Read on to find out." How about you reading back to verses 29,30 to find out? Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days The Sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give itsw light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. VS30, "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn (except the pre-tribers because they will be up in heaven eating their leg of lamb marriange supper?) and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

Did you get that quasar? What happens after the tribulation is then at vs31, He will send forth His angels etc. It seems to me that your the one shooting yourself in the foot.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

FYI, bluto, yu can spit and argue all you like with your opinion and completely fail, when you try proving by the Scriptures any part of my post 1247 is false, or that any passage of Scripture I posted is out of context. You either did not read it, or you did not understand it. In Jesus second coming to the earth, in Mt.24:30, He will bring the entire Church with Him, from their marriage in heaven, while the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in verse 14, confirming Zech.14:4-5! How the Church will get into heaven is clearly delineated by Scripture, from which there is no option!

Another point is in your remark for me to read the events in Mt.24, before verse 31. FYI, I have, many more times than you have! In Jesus first advent, His ministry was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6. The Church did not exist, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. It has nothing whatever to do with the Church.

Either prove one single point in my post 1247 to be false, by the Scriptures, or your views are!


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

Where is their pre-trib rapture? These are Tribulation Saints and guess what? We are all still here!!


ISIS Crucifies 11 Christian Missionaries, Cuts Fingertips Off 12-Y-O in Front of Preacher-Father Before Killing Them

Read more at ISIS Crucifies 11 Christian Missionaries, Cuts Fingertips Off 12-Y-O in Front of Preacher-Father Before Killing Them

Islamic State militants in Syria heinously tortured and killed a 12-year-old boy, along with 11 indigenous Christian missionaries, after they refused to leave their homeland or renounce Christ.

According to the Virginia-based Christian Aid Mission, a group that has been in contact with the slain missionaries' director, all 12 victims were captured on Aug. 7 in a village on the outskirts of Aleppo.
Three weeks later, IS militants questioned the captives about whether they converted from Islam when they became Christians, an offense that is punishable by death under the Islamic State's twisted legal code. The Christian captives were honest and admitted that they were once Muslims.
The IS jihadis demanded the captives reconvert to Islam, but the Christians asserted that they would never renounce their love for Christ.
On Aug. 28, IS militants split the 12 captives into two groups. A group of four, which included the 41-year-old team leader, his 12-year-old son and two other ministry workers, were taken to one village for questioning. On the same day, the other eight captives were questioned in another village.
In the one village, militants began questioning the ministry workers, the son and the team leader — who had helped establish nine house churches in the area.
After the Christians refused to renounce Christ and explained to the militants that God wanted them to stay in the area to share the Gospel, the four of them were tortured and crucified in front of a crowd. The ministry leader also explained that the four victims were left to die beside signs that identified them as "infidels."
"All were badly brutalized and then crucified," the ministry leader, who had trained all of the workers for the evangelistic ministry, said. "They were left on their crosses for two days. No one was allowed to remove them."
But before the four Christians were crucified, the militants cut the fingertips off the boy and forced his father to watch.

"In front of the team leader and relatives in the crowd, the Islamic extremists cut off the fingertips of the boy and severely beat him, telling his father they would stop the torture only if he, the father, returned to Islam," the Christian Aid Mission report states. "When the team leader refused, relatives said, the ISIS militants also tortured and beat him and the two other ministry workers. The three men and the boy then met their deaths in crucifixion."
The eight other missionaries who were questioned in another village were beheaded after they refused to convert to Islam. Two of the missionaries were women who were 29 and 33 years old. Before the women were beheaded, they were publicly raped and beaten by

 

[Quasar92]

By PlainWord:

Where is their pre-trib rapture? These are Tribulation Saints and guess what? We are all still here!!

My posts 1237 and 1240 refute you. The tribulation martyrs/saints DO NOT belong to the Church. The Church will be CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord forever, as recorded in 1 Thess.4:17, SEVEN YEARS BEFORE. as recorded in the above post 1237, when the Church age ENDS!


Quasar92