about the rich man

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Vdp

Banned
Nov 18, 2015
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#21
There are a few things here we can know are True from this passage.

1. There is a Hades.
2. There are actual flames in Hades.
3. People in Hades are in pain all the time.
4. There is no water in Hades.
5. People in Hades can see people in Heaven.
6. There is a great chasm between Hades and Heaven.
7. No one can cross over from Hades to Heaven.
8. Hades is a place of torment for all Eternity.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#22
Guys, guys, guys, it is a parable about Israel and the Gentiles being surprised at how much different each of their fates turned out than they expected. There is no "Abraham's Bosom". This is the only place in the entire Bible it is even mentioned, and no one is ever said to be "carried" anywhere... we all go to the grave.
True, if it wasn't then whose bosom did Abraham go to. :eek:
 
M

Miri

Guest
#23
Ps being rich wasn't the problem it was a lack of repentence read the
rest of the chapter. (rich people can and do enrich and further the kingdom of God).
Also look at the chapter context, it was being addressed to the Pharisees who liked
to justify themselves - they were rich but did not possess God's true riches.


Luke 16:14-15 NKJV
[14] Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and
they derided Him. [15] And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves
before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men
is an abomination in the sight of God.


....

Luke 16:24-31 NKJV
[24] "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame.'
[25] But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your
good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you
are tormented. [26] And besides all this, between us and you there is a
great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor
can those from there pass to us.'
[27] "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my
father's house,
[28] for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to
this place of torment.' [29] Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the
prophets; let them hear them.' [30] And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if
one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
[31] But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither
will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead
.'"



Even in his torment the rich man didn't turn to God, he turned to Abraham who was
also a man just like he was. Or to put it another way even the death and resurrection
of Jesus which was to come, would not have been sufficient for the rich man and his
friends.

If we are not pursuaded by the good news of Jesus there is nothing else on
offer.
 
H

HisHolly

Guest
#24
Guys, guys, guys, it is a parable about Israel and the Gentiles being surprised at how much different each of their fates turned out than they expected. There is no "Abraham's Bosom". This is the only place in the entire Bible it is even mentioned, and no one is ever said to be "carried" anywhere... we all go to the grave.
Both Elijah and Enoch right?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#25
I would be curious to why some think it is not a parable. What would the lesson teach?

I would suggest the account in Luke is a parable. Parables hide the spiritual meaning from one while the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the other reveals the true.

Sometimes God uses historically true parables to teach us things about salvation. The creation account as would by the exodus of Egypt be two historically true parables. They serve the purpose of preaching the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand. The goal of all parables is to preach the gospel of Christ in respect to that work of suffering. Parables and ceremonial laws become one. All of ceremonial laws that were necessary up until the first century reformation were used to preach the gospel in advance. They do preach the gospel of Christ in that way. In that way we are to learn what it means to eat and drink in the gospel spiritually, by faith.

When a person departs for this life they no longer have any part here forever more. They are dead with no spirit life by which they could work to see with the eyes that have decayed away, having finished their purpose here on earth to walk by sight.

People who are dead cannot see those who have departed and vice versa. They will not be given a opportunity to look for mercy. This seeing it is appointed for all men to die once and them comes the judgement.

God who is typified as the bosom of Abraham That is simply saying the presence of God who has no literal finger and therefore cannot dip his finger into the gospel represented by water. They have no tongue . It’s a righteousness not of their own selves hey are thirsting for. It is simply saying like the five virgin that had no oil. And it is not a literal flame but a representative of an unending judgement where unconverted persons will never rise to new spirit life again. The parable is in respect to a person going through a great tribulation described as hell .

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:23

The purpose of that parable is the same as that of the transfiguration with a vision using Moses and Elijah. Hear His Son .If they will not hear Jesus through the water of His word then neither would they believe he arose from the dead.

Mark 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luk 16:29

The parable using Lazarus has a different outcome .It represents the gospel in a difrerent way.

I would be curious to why some think it is not a parable. What would the lesson teach?

I would suggest the account in Luke is a parable. Parables hide the spiritual meaning from one while the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the other reveals the true.

Sometimes God uses historically true parables to teach us things about salvation. The creation account as would by the exodus of Egypt be two historically true parables. They serve the purpose of preaching the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand.

The goal of all parables is to preach the gospel of Christ in respect to that work of suffering. Parables and ceremonial laws become one. All of ceremonial laws that were necessary up until the first century reformation were used to preach the gospel in advance. They do preach the gospel of Christ in that way. In that way we are to learn what it means to eat and drink in the gospel spiritually, by faith.

When a person departs for this life they no longer have any part here forever more. They are dead with no spirit life by which they could work to see with the eyes that have decayed away, having finished their purpose here on earth to walk by sight.

People who are dead cannot see those who have departed and vice versa. They will not be given a opportunity to look for mercy. This is seeing it is appointed for all men to die once and then comes the judgement.... not a time to plead for mercy.

God who is typified as the bosom of Abraham That is simply saying the presence of God who has no literal finger and therefore cannot dip his finger into the gospel represented by water. They have no tongue . It’s a righteousness not of their own selves hey are thirsting for. It is simply saying like the five virgin that had no oil. And it is not a literal flame but a representative of an unending judgement where unconverted persons will never rise to new spirit life again. The parable is in respect to a person going through a great tribulation described as hell .

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:23
The purpose of that parable is the same as that of the transfiguration with a vision using Moses and Elijah. Hear His Son .If they will not hear Jesus through the water of His word then neither would they believe he arose from the dead.
Mark 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luk 16:29

The parable using Lazarus has a different outcome .It represents the gospel in a different way.The good things given to one and not the other is not salvation .If it was it would make a literal understanding to no effect .What would he be thirsting for in regard to mercy if the Rich man already had the gospel?
 
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Mar 28, 2016
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#26
Both Elijah and Enoch right?
Yes, to include them, that were both used in those parables to show the final resurrection as those who were reigning with Christ on earth are changed in the twinkling of the eye.

Literal flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God .They will receive their new incorruptible bodies at the same time of any saint that leaves this realm under the sun.
 
Apr 29, 2012
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#27
..... all Eternity.
This is the reason for the original post. To emphasize our inability to even imagine something that has no beginning or end and finality of ones eternal destination.
I had no idea I'd be starting such a debate :(
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#28
Guys, guys, guys, it is a parable about Israel and the Gentiles being surprised at how much different each of their fates turned out than they expected. There is no "Abraham's Bosom". This is the only place in the entire Bible it is even mentioned, and no one is ever said to be "carried" anywhere... we all go to the grave.


The name Abraham which he gave to Abram as Gentile( (Amorite, mother a Hittite ).It, Abraham Is used as a type or shadow in various parables to represent our father in heaven, as the father of many or a multitude of nations, that we call sects or denominations . This is in respect to the seed (singular of Christ )the spiritual seed by which all men are born from above. And not seeds after the flesh of Abraham .He is the father of one nation, as that of the Jew the new order he brought when Melchizedek , a prefigure of the Son of man showed his approval by blessing Abraham in the same way he blesses us today.

The Busom of Abraham is simply another way of saing the presence of God
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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#29
There are a few things here we can know are True from this passage.

1. There is a Hades.
2. There are actual flames in Hades.
3. People in Hades are in pain all the time.
4. There is no water in Hades.
5. People in Hades can see people in Heaven.
6. There is a great chasm between Hades and Heaven.
7. No one can cross over from Hades to Heaven.
8. Hades is a place of torment for all Eternity.
I agree with everything except #5 and #6, which I will address together and #8 by itself.

5/6). There is nothing in the scripture that infers that people in Hades can see people in heaven. Abraham and Lazarus were in the same place under the earth that the rich man was with the exception of that great chasm separating the two areas, one being a place of paradise and the other a place of torment. People have misinterpreted paradise as always referring to heaven. But the word "paradise" is not unique to heaven alone, as both the garden of Eden was a paradise as well as the place where Abraham, Lazarus, Samuel and all of OT saints went to, which was directly across from Hades/Sheol. This place of paradise is the same place that Jesus was referring to when He told to the man next him, "today you will be with me in paradise."

8. Hades is a place of torment for all Eternity.

Scripture makes clear that Sheol/Hades is a temporary place of punishment. For Rev.20:13 tells us that after the thousand year reign of Christ, that the souls/spirits of those who are in Hades will be released and resurrected to stand before God at the great white throne judgment. After they are judged and their names are not found in the book of life, they are then thrown into the lake of fire, which is a completely different place from Hades. Not only that, but this present heaven and earth are going to disappear/depart and then God is going to create a new heaven, new earth where the new Jerusalem will be. Therefore, people will not be in Hades for eternity, but will go from Hades to the lake of fire which is where they will remain forever.
 
H

HisHolly

Guest
#30
Guys, guys, guys, it is a parable about Israel and the Gentiles being surprised at how much different each of their fates turned out than they expected. There is no "Abraham's Bosom". This is the only place in the entire Bible it is even mentioned, and no one is ever said to be "carried" anywhere... we all go to the grave.
Yes, to include them, that were both used in those parables to show the final resurrection as those who were reigning with Christ on earth are changed in the twinkling of the eye.

Literal flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God .They will receive their new incorruptible bodies at the same time of any saint that leaves this realm under the sun.
What? I don't understand what you're saying.
OT or NT? I'm not talking about anything in the NT so I'm confused.
 
H

HisHolly

Guest
#31
WT I didn't mean to address you in the above. My apologies
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#32
All of you people who want to put people in a place of torment before they are even judged....... how do you justify that? If they have not yet been judged, how do you make them out to be deserving of torment while you decide others aren't?
 
Feb 11, 2016
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#34
All of you people who want to put people in a place of torment before they are even judged....... how do you justify that? If they have not yet been judged, how do you make them out to be deserving of torment while you decide others aren't?
Who wants to put people in hell/hades?

He was in hell/hades and it says,

Rev 20:13 [FONT=&quot]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell/hades[/FONT][FONT=&quot] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.[/FONT]
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#35
Who wants to put people in hell/hades?

He was in hell/hades and it says,

Rev 20:13 [FONT="]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; [U]and death and hell/hades[/U][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.[/FONT]
I said nothing, at all, about anyone wanting to put people in hell/hades. (Both terms, BTW, are just "the grave" in the Bible... and everyone who dies goes there.)

I asked why some people here want to place people who have simply died, AND HAVE NOT BEEN JUDGED OF ANYTHING YET, (as your own quote says) in a place of torment.
 
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#36
I said nothing, at all, about anyone wanting to put people in hell/hades. (Both terms, BTW, are just "the grave" in the Bible... and everyone who dies goes there.)

I asked why some people here want to place people who have simply died, AND HAVE NOT BEEN JUDGED OF ANYTHING YET, (as your own quote says) in a place of torment.
All of you people who want to put people in a place of torment before they are even judged....... how do you justify that? If they have not yet been judged, how do you make them out to be deserving of torment while you decide others aren't?

Luke 16:23 And in hell/hades
[SUP]G86[/SUP] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Same word, place

Rev 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell/hades
G86 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Delivered up those in them were judged after

According to your own words. The two words are shown between these same places, are shown in the same



 
Feb 7, 2015
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#37

Luke 16:23 And in hell/hades
[SUP]G86[/SUP] he lift up his eyes, being in torments,[FONT=&] and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Same word, place

Rev 20:13 [/FONT]
[FONT=&]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; [/FONT]and death and hell/hades
G86 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged [FONT=&]every man according to their works.

Delivered up those in them were judged after

[/FONT]
[FONT=&]According to your own words. The two words are shown between these same places, are shown in the same



[/FONT]
Lord, you seem to be lost here. Both those words are simply the place where the dead. ALL the dead, reside until we are raised for judgement.

The PARABLE Jesus told, and it IS only a parable to show that some of the Gentiles would be rewarded, while some of the smug Jews would not, was a purely hypothetical scene. It didn't exist, and the hypothetical story was only told so that Jews would know that their birth asssociation assured them of nothing.

My question is, since there are NO SINS recorded for this imaginary "Rich Man", why are some people trying to make out that when people die, and go to their graves (hades) to await judgement with the rest of us, that some are tormented there in the grave, before being raised to judgement, and others are not.

These people are taking a PARABLE that was only told to show that Jews were not guaranteed the kingdom just because they were born into a certain family group... and trying to make out that people who die AND ARE NOT YET JUDGED go straight to a place of torment.

The two, the PARABLE, and their determination to see people awaiting judgement, tormented, have nothing to do with one another. People have just tried to make a simple parable about the outcome of believing Gentiles and unbelieving Jews to be a description of the punishment, when that was never the intent, at all.
 
Feb 11, 2016
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#38
Lord, you seem to be lost here. Both those words are simply the place where the dead. ALL the dead, reside until we are raised for judgement.

The PARABLE Jesus told, and it IS only a parable to show that some of the Gentiles would be rewarded, while some of the smug Jews would not, was a purely hypothetical scene. It didn't exist, and the hypothetical story was only told so that Jews would know that their birth asssociation assured them of nothing.

My question is, since there are NO SINS recorded for this imaginary "Rich Man", why are some people trying to make out that when people die, and go to their graves (hades) to await judgement with the rest of us, that some are tormented there in the grave, before being raised to judgement, and others are not.

These people are taking a PARABLE that was only told to show that Jews were not guaranteed the kingdom just because they were born into a certain family group... and trying to make out that people who die AND ARE NOT YET JUDGED go straight to a place of torment.

The two, the PARABLE, and their determination to see people awaiting judgement, tormented, have nothing to do with one another. People have just tried to make a simple parable about the outcome of believing Gentiles and unbelieving Jews to be a description of the punishment, when that was never the intent, at all.
I need scripture to your points
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#39
I think you have tried to combine so much, that you have no idea what is going on. LOL