about the rich man
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I believe, except for the huge disruption during Jesus' time in the grave, that every single person that has died since then is in what the Bible calls "the unseen place" (hades, sheol, etc.... it is called many names in the Bible translations) and that we will remain there till the day when Jesus returns to "revive" us. I have no idea if we will be in a state of awareness, or not..... I sure hope not, since it may be thousands of years before He returns. LOL I do "imagine" (since that is all any of us can do) that it will be similar to the state of "sleep" that we know of here and now....... We have no idea how much time really passes while we sleep.
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T
If we all went to "sleep" or the grave before judgement then that would nullify what Jesus said in his story of the rich man and Lazarus.
Why?
Because the rich man asked that someone be sent to tell his brothers not to make the same mistake he did. This denotes that judgement has not yet happened ... people are still choosing. Yet the rich man IS in torment.
Why?
Because the rich man asked that someone be sent to tell his brothers not to make the same mistake he did. This denotes that judgement has not yet happened ... people are still choosing. Yet the rich man IS in torment.
T
This is also an interesting scripture to factor in ... REV 6
[FONT="]9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/FONT]
Absolutely. Because Jesus was not describing "Hell" to them. He was telling a parable they might relate to because of their time in Egypt........ that the Jews and Gentiles were about to change status in the coming kingdom.
An interesting thing to do would be to "attempt" to find any teaching of "Hell" in the old testament. The Jews never entertained a notion of that concept until returning from more than 10 generations of Babylonian captivity, immersed in Pagan religion where they were taught that strange concept. (And they didn't hear one word from a prophet of God in all that time.)
The ancient Jews honestly didn't have an inkling of anything like a fiery, burning Hell before the Egyptian taught it to their children.
An interesting thing to do would be to "attempt" to find any teaching of "Hell" in the old testament. The Jews never entertained a notion of that concept until returning from more than 10 generations of Babylonian captivity, immersed in Pagan religion where they were taught that strange concept. (And they didn't hear one word from a prophet of God in all that time.)
The ancient Jews honestly didn't have an inkling of anything like a fiery, burning Hell before the Egyptian taught it to their children.
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I was loooking at this also, and what I found taking it through one of the ways seems to show certain times, such as that which was left to be killed (as the apostles speak of being last as appointed to death) and I was following that through that way.
Shows pointers in them
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish outof Jerusalem.
And yet Jerusalem is called the great city even as mystery Babylon is called "that great city" (even as its spiritually called) Sodom and Egypt (as shown below)
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men
Whereas Jesus said
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres ofthe righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Okay, so children of those who killed the former prophets, and now Jesus is going to (again) send unto them more prophets, and heres what they will do
Mat 23:32 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:33 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Okay, so who is this then?
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Of those they slew between the temple and the altar
Mat 23:34 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Now souls under the altar shown here
Rev 6:10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimonywhich they held:
They are crying to avenge their blood
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
These are told to hold on a little season, because something else needs to come to pass
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Okay, so ^these others^ need also to be killed as had to be fulfilled, because Jesus said to them
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Whereas here, we see that great city is made desolate
Rev 18:19 Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Now, its time for those under the altar who said "How long O Lord, until you avenge our blood to rejoice (inclusive of the apostles here)
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Whereas Paul said,
1 Cr 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
And of these he said,
1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
And again...
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
In the picture of Hell/hades even there are those not in it but rather are shown as in one of what appears as three, in the sea, death and hell/hades, and that is typically not touched upon, why would there be dead shown equally in the sea as they would in death and hell/hades? See what I mean? If your dead why would you still be in the sea? If anyone comes back with "well their bodies were there" then what about those in the earth? See what I mean?
The top part is not so thread related but just splashing off what you brought up there.
Shows pointers in them
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish outof Jerusalem.
And yet Jerusalem is called the great city even as mystery Babylon is called "that great city" (even as its spiritually called) Sodom and Egypt (as shown below)
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men
Whereas Jesus said
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres ofthe righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Okay, so children of those who killed the former prophets, and now Jesus is going to (again) send unto them more prophets, and heres what they will do
Mat 23:32 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:33 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Okay, so who is this then?
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Of those they slew between the temple and the altar
Mat 23:34 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Now souls under the altar shown here
Rev 6:10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimonywhich they held:
They are crying to avenge their blood
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
These are told to hold on a little season, because something else needs to come to pass
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Okay, so ^these others^ need also to be killed as had to be fulfilled, because Jesus said to them
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Whereas here, we see that great city is made desolate
Rev 18:19 Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Now, its time for those under the altar who said "How long O Lord, until you avenge our blood to rejoice (inclusive of the apostles here)
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Whereas Paul said,
1 Cr 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
And of these he said,
1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
And again...
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
In the picture of Hell/hades even there are those not in it but rather are shown as in one of what appears as three, in the sea, death and hell/hades, and that is typically not touched upon, why would there be dead shown equally in the sea as they would in death and hell/hades? See what I mean? If your dead why would you still be in the sea? If anyone comes back with "well their bodies were there" then what about those in the earth? See what I mean?
The top part is not so thread related but just splashing off what you brought up there.
I wonder how Moses and Elijah came to be with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration if they were asleep somewhere?
.....personally I believe when Jesus used the term "sleeping", He is just referring to their natural body here on the earth and that it is dead. It will resurrect at the last trump. ( No my beloved Americans - this does not mean there will be more "Trumps" in the future..lol )
I'll know for sure within 40 years about the sleep theory!...
.....personally I believe when Jesus used the term "sleeping", He is just referring to their natural body here on the earth and that it is dead. It will resurrect at the last trump. ( No my beloved Americans - this does not mean there will be more "Trumps" in the future..lol )
I'll know for sure within 40 years about the sleep theory!...
T
To me it is clear, the man didn't repent in his life, he had no faith! He had Moses and the prophets and he refused to listen. He wanted Lazarus to be able to go warn his brothers about the place he was in. Abraham said no that his if his brothers would not listen to MOSES and the PROPHETS they would not listen to someone from the dead. His sin wasn't that he was rich and he let Lazarus beg! It's horrible but that did NOT send him to hell. He didn't have FAITH in what Moses and the prophets preached. He didn't believe. THAT is the ONLY thing that send ANYONE to hell. Old and new testament. When Jesus says there was a "certain" person, I take it to be literal.
Yeah even Jesus speaks in accord with Abraham in respects to himself
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
As Abraham said to the rich man about his brethren just the same
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Even as Jesus said that had they believed Moses (who wrote of him) that they would have believed him (who rose from the dead)
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
And again,
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
His death and resurrection are recorded in the scriptures, these things are shown being expounded from the same, for example, Philip with the enuch, and he preached Jesus out of Isaiah, and faith in Christ come to him by hearing of Jesus (his death, and his resurection) as by the same.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
As Abraham said to the rich man about his brethren just the same
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Even as Jesus said that had they believed Moses (who wrote of him) that they would have believed him (who rose from the dead)
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
And again,
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
His death and resurrection are recorded in the scriptures, these things are shown being expounded from the same, for example, Philip with the enuch, and he preached Jesus out of Isaiah, and faith in Christ come to him by hearing of Jesus (his death, and his resurection) as by the same.
I'm sorry I even started this thread. Perhaps this other one will help some.
http://christianchat.com/christian-family-forum/137871-need-always-right.html
http://christianchat.com/christian-family-forum/137871-need-always-right.html
H
If it be a parable why would the rich man want to warn his brothers? What's to warn about, everything is over... Judgement time..
What about all the people who have died and came back? Should we count all their stories as lies?
Holding place is different than the final destination. Doesn't mean the final judgment has happened. We have spirits that never sleep so where do they go if in fact we have no temporary destination?
Just asking questions for the purpose of doing so..
What about all the people who have died and came back? Should we count all their stories as lies?
Holding place is different than the final destination. Doesn't mean the final judgment has happened. We have spirits that never sleep so where do they go if in fact we have no temporary destination?
Just asking questions for the purpose of doing so..