are there any universalists here?????

[Magenta]

The concept of a soul within us that cannot die first became a ‘Christian’ doctrine at the end of the second century AD, promoted largely by Roman Catholics. Hell had been taught in Greek philosophy long before the time of Jesus, with Plato (427-347 BC) as the important leader in this thinking.

Eternal conscious torment is not a Scriptural idea.
The Bible teaches that death is the consequence of sin,
and that the dead know nothing.

The teaching of an everlasting place of punishment for the wicked is the natural consequence of a belief in an immortal soul. The Bible says that only God is immortal! Life is found in Christ alone.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Exactly, nobody will survive outside of Christ; you seem to have the particulars but are conflicted about them, none the less, and go along with the crowd in their conclusion on the matter despite what Scripture teaches. The consequence of sin (non-belief) is eternal ever after, in the second death.

Magenta, I am convicted by Scripture, not by the crowd. The consequence for sin (original sin, actual sin, and unbelief) is eternal in his punishing it.

But I believe, Magenta, you are struggling to reconcile God's love with his perfect justice. I want to show you that unless God is fair in his dealing with man, he is not loving. There is nothing good about a God who sweeps our crimes under the rug, you agree? Universalism shows a God who doesn't care, and that's not love at all.

 

[posthuman]

I'm of the opinion that Universalism requires belief in Reincarnation.

i think you have this backwards.

reincarnation requires universalism, not the other way around. if you have reincarnation, it is hand-in-glove with refinement and restoration over time, which leads to universal 'perfection' - i don't want to say "universal salvation" because it seems to me to be a contradiction in terms; there is nothing to be "saved" from if it is not possible to be condemned. the only way you don't have universalism given that you have reincarnation is if you have failed refinement, or a sort of meaningless reincarnation that does not include refinement, but only just "is." IOW samsara, perpetual - not unlike the mormon's idea of 'eternal progression' ((= continual refinement)), which is not progression at all, since in their theology no one - not even the Lord - can progress past a state of progression. IOW no such thing as perfection, no enlightenment: perpetual samsara

but the Lord has perfected forever all those who He is saving. with one Sacrifice!

i do not however see any necessity to have reincarnation given universalism. i see convenience of it, but that's circumstantial in my comprehension, not tautological. i would assume reincarnation to be purposeful, and if purposeful, then by the One who purposes, and i also assume He will do all His will; hence, universalism, QED. but i can't make the same kind of 'proof' for the contrapositive.

i don't believe in universalism, so i can't believe in reincarnation, according to the argument above. i do believe John is Elijah who was to come, because Christ declared it, and i believe - but this is a great mystery, even more complex than reincarnation. BEHOLD!!! says the LORD, in Micah! if He was reincarnating everyone all this time, why the BEHOLD!!? and Elijah was taken up - he did not die. this is something different.


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i'm sorry you've been banned ((yes i realize post is posting posts post-prohibito ))
you know i think you're nuts on several points, but on interesting, knowledgeable and clever points ((& lots of cool diagrams)), and you should know that me thinking you're nuts doesn't have anything to do with whether i love you or not. nor does you being banned, and i believe life in Christ is greater than what time can contain. so, "later"





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dude, another 'calvinist' who loves people?
banned people even?
what gives?

 

[Magenta]

Magenta, I am convicted by Scripture, not by the crowd. The consequence for sin (original sin, actual sin, and unbelief) is eternal in his punishing it.

But I believe, Magenta, you are struggling to reconcile God's love with his perfect justice. I want to show you that unless God is fair in his dealing with man, he is not loving. There is nothing good about a God who sweeps our crimes under the rug, you agree? Universalism shows a God who doesn't care, and that's not love at all.

How can I believe you have understood anything at all that I have said if you think I am promoting universalism? What is the point of saying anything at all to you if you are so blind?

 

[Magenta]

The consequence for sin is death. How many times must this be said? The Bible all but shouts it. It is repeated over and over and over again. Almost everyone on this site denies it!!!!!!! Yes, I used multiple exclamation marks.

 

[Spokenpassage]

How can I believe you have understood anything at all that I have said if you think I am promoting universalism? What is the point of saying anything at all to you if you are so blind?

I wasn't saying you believe in Universalism, I threw that in to show its absurdity.

 

[Locutus]

On the issue of the "elect" there seems to be an West/East imbalance.

 

[Spokenpassage]

On the issue of the "elect" there seems to be an West/East imbalance.

When will you turn from your unbelief and feed on Christ and his righteousness by faith?

 

[slave]

That fact was even shown in the Garden of Eden. Before sin, life seems to keep on going. After sin, there comes an appointed time for every man to physically die, but it is not an immediate occurrence. After sin entered the world, man undergoes physical death. But in one case, there is no reversal of the condition, and in the other case, resurrection has been offered.

None of that indicates exactly what continuing without resurrection really means.

The spirit and body of man died due to Sin in the first Adam, by way of God's verdict, whereas, in the second Adam (Jesus Christ Our Lord) His body was as pure as light.This part then, in man, is called the "Flesh," which still holds a death sentence .."for all will die once and be judged..." but thru the renewal of our spirit by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the NEW Holy Spirit availed to man: ( Jesus' purity and payment of sin and conquering of sin) gives our spirit a new wake-up call, a rebirth after our recognition of death, also on the Cross with Christ, and our experiential death of dying to the right to ourselves in living our New Creation out in real experiences of God's Workmanship thru us. As we live now by the Spirit (only) in Christ's Spirit we are left with "spirit discerning Spirit." Our bodies are enlivened to purity only due to being hidden in Christ Jesus!, But enlivened meaning we can thru the Spirit put to death the things of the flesh in us and move to purity in your own bodies even now in Christ... which gives us the ability to be Holy as Jesus Christ was Holy. But our flesh body will never lose its death sentence, hence even our purified body in Christ will pass away, while God, in time, will transcendent our appearance and durability in our being in our next chapter of eternity.

In the first Adam - death was sentenced, bound to sin, in the second Adam - death was never sentenced, for the death He died was His and God's sacrifice They laid down..."...He became sin.." for mankind's payment of sins; and in so doing conquered sin, reconciling mankind to the Father once more, yet now with a new Spirit never before witnessed of the first Adam...the purity of the Holy Spirit given to us thru grace by faith thru Jesus Christ. And, now we are more than conquerors in Christ, as we believe and receive Him as Lord and King. This is the Spirit which we are found hidden in, that we have hidden ourselves in so that we may not sin against Him. This is the Spirit which we are resurrected by, and are able to obtain purity in, simply by believing, and receiving it thru obedience. The Holy Spirit is Our Guarantor of things to come, for if we live by the Spirit of God thru our spirit, and put to death the things of the flesh (which is still within us while on earth (dormant) if we live by the Spirt, or remain in Christ). Thus, if we remain in Christ and His Words remain in us we can ask anything and it will be given.....The chain of command, and living by way of the Cross in death and in life in our position and in our experiences, making us overcomers of the world's system, will show us a day of receiving a "Crown of life." Guaranteed by the Father thru Jesus Christ Our Lord! AMEN! (Let it be so!)

Hence, without resurrection, we can not escape being in God's sentence of sin and the members that did sin; namely the flesh resulting in death. This has not been reprieved the only hope we have is in being born again. Scripture is as clear as a bell on this. (Are we saying the same thing? I hope we are.) .

 

[Spokenpassage]

The concept of a soul within us that cannot die first became a ‘Christian’ doctrine at the end of the second century AD, promoted largely by Roman Catholics. Hell had been taught in Greek philosophy long before the time of Jesus, with Plato (427-347 BC) as the important leader in this thinking.

Eternal conscious torment is not a Scriptural idea.
The Bible teaches that death is the consequence of sin,
and that the dead know nothing.

The teaching of an everlasting place of punishment for the wicked is the natural consequence of a belief in an immortal soul. The Bible says that only God is immortal! Life is found in Christ alone.

Roman Catholicism didn't even exist in the second century, Magenta.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Roman Catholicism didn't even exist in the second century, Magenta.

Hello Spokenpassage,

Not only did Roman Catholism not exist in second century, but eternal punishment is most certainly found in the scriptures. Both life and death are states of conscious existence. How else could the smoke of ones torment rise up forever and ever and have no rest day or night. One would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience not having any rest day or night. Magenta, what you're teaching is the same as JW's.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Eternal conscious torment is not a Scriptural idea.
The Bible teaches that death is the consequence of sin,
and that the dead know nothing.

Roman Catholicism didn't even exist in the second century, Magenta.

Hello Spokenpassage,

Not only did Roman Catholism not exist in second century, but eternal punishment is most certainly found in the scriptures. Both life and death are states of conscious existence. How else could the smoke of ones torment rise up forever and ever and have no rest day or night. One would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience not having any rest day or night. Magenta, what you're teaching is the same as JW's.

 

[slave]

Well paint me green and call me a cucumber, but I thought Scripture was clear in dispelling any guidance in our life other than the Holy Spirit? Why would He want us to look at three options to His Truths? Hmmm, So, slap me silly, but maybe we need not venture a guess on what our Father wants. Maybe, just maybe ( and when I say that, I mean absolutely, without pause or divergence!) we should just follow the Spirit of God so our spirit doesn't look like swiss cheese, and our flesh doesn't appear to be God's Spirit. Diligence in Christ is important - Dare I say? I do dare, because He dares to say. So, fluff my pillow but don't flatten my Spirit! I vote no on the Universalist lie. But I'm just a radical Christian what can I say?! ...

 

[Magenta]

Roman Catholicism didn't even exist in the second century, Magenta.

Roman Latin Christianity that grew into Roman Catholicism, then. It did not pop out of nowhere, and is not taught in Scripture. The Roman church is responsible for many heresies that are or have been accepted by Christians who did not know any better. Their heresies have profoundly affected the Christian worldview. Dante's fictional image of hell more closely matches what most Christians believe than what the Bible actually teaches.

Christianity being blended with worldly philosophy is a Roman Catholic specialty... The early church fathers did not teach what many accept to be true today. About AD 240 Tertullian of Carthage took up the teaching of an immortal soul. He taught the endless torment of the immortal soul of the wicked was parallel to the eternal blessedness of the saved, with no sleep of death after this life.

 

[Magenta]

Hello Spokenpassage,

Not only did Roman Catholism not exist in second century, but eternal punishment is most certainly found in the scriptures. Both life and death are states of conscious existence. How else could the smoke of ones torment rise up forever and ever and have no rest day or night. One would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience not having any rest day or night. Magenta, what you're teaching is the same as JW's.

What you teach is the same as the lie of Satan, "Thou shalt surely not die."

 

[Magenta]

Roman Catholicism didn't even exist in the second century, Magenta.

Nor did I say Roman Catholicism existed in the second century... I said it was promoted by Roman Catholics, after arising in the second century, though it may have been the third century when the belief was first promoted.

 

[Magenta]

Under the influence of Augustine, AD 430, the concept of endless conscious torment was brought into general acceptance by the Roman Catholic Church in the western world. He taught that all souls were deathless (against the clear teaching of Scripture that only God is immortal) and consequently the lost would experience endless fires of punishment, immediately upon the end of this life. Purgatory and indulgences also grew out of this heresy.

Any teaching of the eternal co-existence of evil and good is not in the Bible, but is a teaching from Greek philosophy. It also means that Jesus can never see an end of the sin and misery He came to die for. What an abominable teaching!

 

[trofimus]

The concept of a soul within us that cannot die first became a ‘Christian’ doctrine at the end of the second century AD, promoted largely by Roman Catholics.

And the Eastern Orthodox Church or protestant churches do not promote it? I think its simply a common church doctrine.

Is there any larger church that has in its creed that they believe hell is not eternal?

 

[Magenta]

And the Eastern Orthodox Church or protestant churches do not promote it? I think its simply a common church doctrine.

Is there any larger church that has in its creed that they believe hell is not eternal?

Yes it is a common heresy now after being popularized and promoted by the RCC.

 

[Magenta]

Is there any larger church that has in its creed that they believe hell is not eternal?

Hell is meant to mean the grave, or death, and the second death is eternal ever after.