are there any universalists here?????

[valiant]

Did they have a change in heart when they decided to sin in Adam...

they sinned in Adam because they went with the sway. but only those chosen out are made righteous.

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

you think you are disproving my point but what you are actually doing is showing you serve out of fear and not love. you claim if it wasnt for the doctrine of eternal torment you would go to boozing and fornicating, so what is your motivation? i see its not love for Christ.. how sad. i wouldnt get happy going to 'the nearest bar' thats misery.
remember: perfect love casts out all fear!!

Well if someone's a Christian, they do serve out of love for Christ...but they're already saved. For the unsaved, they don't have love for Christ. Telling someone without love for Christ that they will be saved without love for Christ probably won't motivate them to have love for Christ.

 

[Depleted]

it might be impossible for people to forgive such wicked people, but nothing is impossible to God. you gotta think that these people did not have it so good either, something happened to them. and also Jesus said forgive them for they know what they do.

You got to think those people killed MILLIONS of others and enslaved many more. Really? They didn't have it so good? So what about the victims because "they didn't have it so good?"

They owned empires! That's pretty good!

And you're right, they certainly knew what they were doing. One guy? Maybe an accident, but millions? I chose Stalin over Hitler, because Hitler wasn't so bad in comparison. He also wasn't so bad in comparison over what Nero did to Christians!

I knew people with the absolute worse upbringing you can imagine. Matter of fact, chances are good you can't imagine it that bad. But what they did because of it? They too deserve eternity in hell for. AND, they were released from what THEY did by God's will, not your pity.

(BTW, I love them very much, too.)

 

[Depleted]

We can't deny that every word of that is true.

Don't "we" there. Most of us can, do and SHOULD!

 

[Muzungu256]

You got to think those people killed MILLIONS of others and enslaved many more. Really? They didn't have it so good? So what about the victims because "they didn't have it so good?"

They owned empires! That's pretty good!

And you're right, they certainly knew what they were doing. One guy? Maybe an accident, but millions? I chose Stalin over Hitler, because Hitler wasn't so bad in comparison. He also wasn't so bad in comparison over what Nero did to Christians!

I knew people with the absolute worse upbringing you can imagine. Matter of fact, chances are good you can't imagine it that bad. But what they did because of it? They too deserve eternity in hell for. AND, they were released from what THEY did by God's will, not your pity.

(BTW, I love them very much, too.)

well according to your system those jews hitler exterminated are also in eternal conscious torment so... so cold

EDIT: i have noticed you calvinist bunch are very very cold people :/ i think it stems from the grace lottery mechanic that you cleverly sneaked in there that God picks and chooses some to save.
i wish you all the best hopefully you will get the love and joy of Christ in your life and me and everyone else is included in that too!! God bless. i feel like this conversation will be unfruitful to continue.

 

[Depleted]

you think you are disproving my point but what you are actually doing is showing you serve out of fear and not love. you claim if it wasnt for the doctrine of eternal torment you would go to boozing and fornicating, so what is your motivation? i see its not love for Christ.. how sad. i wouldnt get happy going to 'the nearest bar' thats misery.
remember: perfect love casts out all fear!!

No, all I did was prove God. All you are doing is trying to prove you are better than God. And, in that, you are failing.

 

[Depleted]

You DO speak a lot of truth.

And this is you trying to raise up the young people? That really is why we butt heads often. You are no teacher, but think you are.

A good lie is 90% truth. It is still a lie.

 

[Depleted]

well according to your system those jews hitler exterminated are also in eternal conscious torment so... so cold

EDIT: i have noticed you calvinist bunch are very very cold people :/ i think it stems from the grace lottery mechanic that you cleverly sneaked in there that God picks and chooses some to save.
i wish you all the best hopefully you will get the love and joy of Christ in your life and me and everyone else is included in that too!! God bless. i feel like this conversation will be unfruitful to continue.

My system? Yeah, okay. "my system." Also inferior to your system because your system is better than God? Right, talking to someone who knows better than God is useless.

Then again, I'm not talking to you as much as I'm explaining to believers where you show off a different gospel (so different it's not Good News, it's HOPELESS) and are quite pleased with yourself for being better than God.

 

[Depleted]

well according to your system those jews hitler exterminated are also in eternal conscious torment so... so cold

EDIT: i have noticed you calvinist bunch are very very cold people :/ i think it stems from the grace lottery mechanic that you cleverly sneaked in there that God picks and chooses some to save.
i wish you all the best hopefully you will get the love and joy of Christ in your life and me and everyone else is included in that too!! God bless. i feel like this conversation will be unfruitful to continue.

BTW, I strongly suspect you are a banned user coming back with a new game. (Since you're becoming less and less innocent, post by post.)

 

[trofimus]

well according to your system those jews hitler exterminated are also in eternal conscious torment so... so cold

EDIT: i have noticed you calvinist bunch are very very cold people :/ i think it stems from the grace lottery mechanic that you cleverly sneaked in there that God picks and chooses some to save.
i wish you all the best hopefully you will get the love and joy of Christ in your life and me and everyone else is included in that too!! God bless. i feel like this conversation will be unfruitful to continue.

I am a calvinist. And I wish that all will be saved, including fallen angels, animals etc.

Can I prove this by the Bible? No.

 

[Angela53510]

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:6-11

This is part of a great theological treatise Paul wrote to believers in Rome! So, he is not generalizing that all our saved, but rather than believers are saved from the WRATH of God! So who is not saved from the WRATH of God? Obviously, those who do not believe!

Romans 5:1 begins with the fact that we are justified by faith. I think Ben brought this up, and it is very important to remember! Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." Hebrews 11:6

Since God does not give faith to unbelievers, there is no chance of salvation. That means that universalism is a lie. If you want to draw near to God, you must believe he exists! So anyone not believing in Christ, is not going to be rewarded! In other words, no univeralism.

I know I went through a very strange phase about 20 years ago, where I became more worried about the fate of those who died (especially family and friends!) than what the bible actually had to say about the matter. So I hope this will be a brief period for those who are caught in the heresy of universalism. I also tried out annihilationism for a very short time, out of pity for the damned. Unfortunately, I read the Bible too much to stick with that nonsense for long!

Getting back to my bolded Romans 5:9 above, what is God's wrath? A free pass for disobeying God their whole life? The justice of God, just melting away? No! It is punishment for not believing and following Christ! God has the whole world in his hands. For those whose consciouses are seared, should they not have a different eternal result than those who believe?

If Romans 5:9 said, "How much more should everyone be saved?" Or "How much more should everyone who does not believe, enter into nothingness?" Or "How much more will everyone, even those who do not believe, be saved from the wrath of God?" Then I would be leading the charge to push both universalism and annihilationism! But, this, and MANY other verses say that these heresies are untrue!

There is this overemphasis by some people of the "love of God." I do agree that love is an essential characteristic of who God is! But God's love is also accompanied by his justice! And justice requires a punishment for those who sin and displease God, which is all of us! Getting into heaven without ever believing in Christ, including those who do not even believe Jesus is existed, (like my sister) is just contrary to the whole message of Scripture!

As for those who cite the partially wrong conclusion that the OT does not talk about hell, I would suggest they read about the OT sacrificial system. True, the priest made sacrifices for the people. But mostly, the sacrifices were by individuals who knew they had sinned. (I realize there are other types of sacrifices or offerings, but I am not talking about those!) (Plus, other cultural factors at play in the Hebrew culture!)

I do not like that modern Christianity emphasizes an individualized salvation. But, there is definitely strong support for the fact, that we do come on Christ one by one, repenting of sins we have committed as we trust God for salvation, and then we become part of the body of Christ.

As for those who have never heard the gospel, as my 82 year old father figured out days after he was saved, that the reason these people are not saved, is because no one told them. Had he not been on death's door, passing away only 5 months later, I have no doubt he would have become a missionary.

So do not blame God that the lost are not hearing the gospel, but rather, blame yourself for not going into the world and proclaiming the gospel! (Matt 28:18-20) Faith comes by hearing the Word of God! We are all charged with this!

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ." Romans 10:17

Really, a good read through of Romans would quickly stop all this heresy! I pray people will open up Romans, and see what this book of systematic theology says about these issues.

 

[Willie-T]

And this is you trying to raise up the young people? That really is why we butt heads often. You are no teacher, but think you are.

A good lie is 90% truth. It is still a lie.

And this is how young people learn. I fear you sell the intelligence of our young posters far too short. They do not learn from us just "telling" them things they are to believe.

 

[Monnkai]

I'm of the opinion that Universalism requires belief in Reincarnation.

This is the first time I've heard of Universalism and it doesn't sit well with me. I get the feeling it shouldn't for anyone who's truly in Christ. JMO but I don't think it's something that should be preached at all.

 

[Monnkai]

you think you are disproving my point but what you are actually doing is showing you serve out of fear and not love. you claim if it wasnt for the doctrine of eternal torment you would go to boozing and fornicating, so what is your motivation? i see its not love for Christ.. how sad. i wouldnt get happy going to 'the nearest bar' thats misery.
remember: perfect love casts out all fear!!

Arn't we suppose to FEAR AND LOVE God? Not just one or the other but both!

 

[Angela53510]

well according to your system those jews hitler exterminated are also in eternal conscious torment so... so cold

EDIT: i have noticed you calvinist bunch are very very cold people :/ i think it stems from the grace lottery mechanic that you cleverly sneaked in there that God picks and chooses some to save.
i wish you all the best hopefully you will get the love and joy of Christ in your life and me and everyone else is included in that too!! God bless. i feel like this conversation will be unfruitful to continue.

This is not Biblical thinking, it is worldly thinking. It means you are doubting God. It means you do not believe God's Word for the truth it is. In other words, perhaps you are not really saved?

I have decided to let God deal with the tragedies of the Holocaust and other mass murders in the last century. The fact is, Jews are not saved. But perhaps some of the blame (besides the entire killing nonsense!) has to lie with those who did not go to them and share Jesus, as the fulfillment of the OT and that he is the Messiah.

So, some questions for you. What about the people who were not saved and died doing evil, or being evil? Are these people deserving of hell? Are only innocent Jews in the Holocaust deserving of skipping over the requirements of salvation? Because by your logic in this post, it would seem to me like you are going to give a free pass to innocents, but not to evil people? That is a weird form of universalism.

Plus, getting back to those innocent Jews killed in the Holocaust, what does the Bible say?

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

And just in case you want some OT examples:

"They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one." Psalm 14:3
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Isa. 64:6


And then, this verse which settles once and for all, that these Jews were not sin free, and deserving of eternal punishment.

"What then? Are we Jews. any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.” Romans 3:9-12


Again, I would ask you to read Romans and Isaiah in particular. The entire Bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ. And why do we need a Saviour? Because, as the above verses point out, we are sinners. If you start making salvation about a generic death on the cross by Jesus, because he is such a nice guy and wouldn't hurt a fly, you have again shown that you do not know the Bible, nor the message of salvation.

God is holy, and his holiness and justice require that those who are saved are going to be with Christ in eternity. And those who are not saved, do not know Christ, and/or do not want to, are going to hell. All of them, because no one is innocent.

So try reading Romans and Isaiah. Or, read the Bible anywhere since your lack of Scriptures and your constant posting of you personal and wrong opinions, makes me realize you have not only NOT read the Bible, but it may well be that you are not saved. I do hope you are just saved an ignorant. And there is only way to cure Bible ignorance and illiteracy, and that is READ THE BIBLE!

A faith not based on the Bible is no faith at all!

 

[preacher4truth]

This is not Biblical thinking, it is worldly thinking. It means you are doubting God. It means you do not believe God's Word for the truth it is. In other words, perhaps you are not really saved?

I have decided to let God deal with the tragedies of the Holocaust and other mass murders in the last century. The fact is, Jews are not saved. But perhaps some of the blame (besides the entire killing nonsense!) has to lie with those who did not go to them and share Jesus, as the fulfillment of the OT and that he is the Messiah.

So, some questions for you. What about the people who were not saved and died doing evil, or being evil? Are these people deserving of hell? Are only innocent Jews in the Holocaust deserving of skipping over the requirements of salvation? Because by your logic in this post, it would seem to me like you are going to give a free pass to innocents, but not to evil people? That is a weird form of universalism.

Plus, getting back to those innocent Jews killed in the Holocaust, what does the Bible say?

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

And just in case you want some OT examples:

"They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one." Psalm 14:3
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Isa. 64:6


And then, this verse which settles once and for all, that these Jews were not sin free, and deserving of eternal punishment.

"What then? Are we Jews. any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.” Romans 3:9-12


Again, I would ask you to read Romans and Isaiah in particular. The entire Bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ. And why do we need a Saviour? Because, as the above verses point out, we are sinners. If you start making salvation about a generic death on the cross by Jesus, because he is such a nice guy and wouldn't hurt a fly, you have again shown that you do not know the Bible, nor the message of salvation.

God is holy, and his holiness and justice require that those who are saved are going to be with Christ in eternity. And those who are not saved, do not know Christ, and/or do not want to, are going to hell. All of them, because no one is innocent.

So try reading Romans and Isaiah. Or, read the Bible anywhere since your lack of Scriptures and your constant posting of you personal and wrong opinions, makes me realize you have not only NOT read the Bible, but it may well be that you are not saved. I do hope you are just saved an ignorant. And there is only way to cure Bible ignorance and illiteracy, and that is READ THE BIBLE!

A faith not based on the Bible is no faith at all!

Excellent post sister.

 

[Depleted]

And this is how young people learn. I fear you sell the intelligence of our young posters far too short. They do not learn from us just "telling" them things they are to believe.

When your glad a young person lies, that's not good.

 

[posthuman]

I'm not sure how talking about us having lasting life through the Resurrection, is "being stuck at the beginning of the book."

there's lasting life through the resurrection right at the beginning of the book! Genesis 3:20

the moment their sin is judged, death in them both, and cursed, poisoned - Adam names the woman Eve - "life" - because when hearing that the seed of the woman will crush the serpent's head, he has the wisdom to understand that she will be the mother of all the living.

the woman who will surely die. whose Seed will bring life - the Living Mercy of God, His grace, changing death to life!

I AM the resurrection and the life.
The one who believes in me will live, even though they die
(John 11:25)​

 

[Magenta]

Arn't we suppose to FEAR AND LOVE God? Not just one or the other but both!

Fear has to do with punishment. Perfect love casts out fear.

 

[Magenta]

If God is of infinite worth, Magenta, how is the consequence not infinite? We are talking about having committed cosmic treason against God, the Lord, not some human or animal. Our view of his holiness must be higher than our comprehension. Jesus was the only person who could drink the cup of his wrath in full while surviving it.

How do you deal with passages that speak of the fire that won't be quenched and the worm that will never die? Or with Jesus saying that some will be raised to eternal life and others to eternal punishment?

Exactly, nobody will survive outside of Christ; you seem to have the particulars but are conflicted about them, none the less, and go along with the crowd in their conclusion on the matter despite what Scripture teaches. The consequence of sin (non-belief) is eternal ever after, in the second death.