Are you saved if you are not obedient?

[Issachar92]

Terminology is important, and chances are that that is not exactly what you were taught.

Regardless, the Bible reveals that human wills can go against the desires of God, not His "purposes". What God purposes, He accomplishes. But what He desires and what men do are not always in agreement, since He has given men free will.

Take the example of Israel, God's chosen people. He desired that they all should be saved, so He sent their Messiah almost exclusively to them. Instead of repenting and believing on Him, they rejected Him, just as they rejected and persecuted the prophets whom God had sent. Please note the words of Stephen (Acts 7:51,52):

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One [Jesus]; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.

Careful there bro! Dont go around refuting the "I" in TULIP. Remember the irresistable grace?

Yeah that verse probably just means something else. Let me google what the pundits got to say about that.

Nehemiah do ya agree with me that as amazing as it is, ALL POINTS of TULIP are easily refutable by scripture and false? Bwahahaha

 

[Nehemiah6]

Nehemiah do ya agree with me that as amazing as it is, ALL POINTS of TULIP are easily refutable by scripture and false? Bwahahaha

Absolutely. They are like a set of dominoes. If one falls, they all fall, and not one of them reflects Gospel truth. The amazing thing is that even though this teaching is so false, it has captured the minds of so many Christians who should know better.

 

[Beez]

Nehemiah6 took exception to what I had written:
"But in answer to your question, I was reared in a holiness-pentecostal church which taught that people's wills, determinations, and desires can overpower G-D's purposes."

Terminology is important, and chances are that that is not exactly what you were taught.

Regardless, the Bible reveals that human wills can go against the desires of God, not His "purposes". What God purposes, He accomplishes. But what He desires and what men do are not always in agreement, since He has given men free will.

Take the example of Israel, God's chosen people. He desired that they all should be saved, so He sent their Messiah almost exclusively to them. Instead of repenting and believing on Him, they rejected Him, just as they rejected and persecuted the prophets whom God had sent. Please note the words of Stephen (Acts 7:51,52):

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One [Jesus]; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.

No, Nehemiah6, seriously. I do know what I am writing about. I attended there 50.5 years, taught there @ 25 years, and was a very active "church lady." I know what they taught.

I also understand very well the meanings and nuances of the words I purposely used in order to define the experience.

Furthermore, Nehemiah, I was writing about what they believed, not what I, or anyone else, believes.

 

[Studyman]

If "obedience" means "to keep the Sabbath" then I'm not going to be saved and nobody else will. I have only heard of two people who really kept the Sabbath: The Lord Jesus and the apostle Paul (before his conversion).

Paul was following the traditions of the Pharisees which transgressed God's Laws, before his conversion. He never "kept" the Sabbath until he turned from the traditions of the mainstream church of his time, and was turned to the God of Abraham.

It was then that he first "kept" God's Holy Sabbath He created for men.


Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul taught to learn from and obey God after Jesus freed him from the deception and the death of the mainstream church of his time.

Acts. 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

He didn't preach the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins as did the Mainstream preachers of his time taught.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Law of works like physical circumcision and sprinkling goats blood for remission of sins.)

The Law of faith includes His Ten Commandments. Man can pick and choose which ones suit them and which ones don't. But that makes men a judge of God's Word, not a "doer".

Given the examples in the Bible, it doesn't end well for them.

 

[Depleted]

Calvinists need to think about some of the things they say...

When people saw the planes flying into the World Trade Center towers, was that "God in action"? When people heard the shots ringing out at Sandy Hook elementary school when 20+ people were killed, including many young children, was that God "getting His will"?

Emphatically: NO.

Inventing a god you can deal with, isn't really trusting God.

Empathetically: YES!

-- Someone on those days got to go home. Real home -- with the Lord.
-- Someone on those days, discovered God's true wrath.
-- Families of those people got time to rethink who God is and what is the purpose of life.
-- The country/world got to think that too.
-- People left behind, got to feel God's comfort.
-- People left behind chalked up another excuse for their list on why there is no God. Unless the Lord calls them, that list will be used to pass sentence to hell.
-- People left behind got to use those moments to declare God's sovereignty. How it all worked out for God's glory, his people's good, and the bad of those who will never be God's people.

AND, people like you, get to preach on how useless God is because he's too inept to reign over evil, thus clarifying why people like you will have no excuse at Judgement Day. One thing to be one of those idiots thinking they're going to get 72 virgins for doing what they did. A whole new level of evil to pretend to be a Christian to pull people away from God on the delusion that you could do it better than he is doing it, therefore pretending God is inept, simply because you don't like how he does things.

Your sheepskin really doesn't hide the wolf. It's not even made of wool.

 

[preacher4truth]

Inventing a god you can deal with, isn't really trusting God.

Empathetically: YES!

-- Someone on those days got to go home. Real home -- with the Lord.
-- Someone on those days, discovered God's true wrath.
-- Families of those people got time to rethink who God is and what is the purpose of life.
-- The country/world got to think that too.
-- People left behind, got to feel God's comfort.
-- People left behind chalked up another excuse for their list on why there is no God. Unless the Lord calls them, that list will be used to pass sentence to hell.
-- People left behind got to use those moments to declare God's sovereignty. How it all worked out for God's glory, his people's good, and the bad of those who will never be God's people.

AND, people like you, get to preach on how useless God is because he's too inept to reign over evil, thus clarifying why people like you will have no excuse at Judgement Day. One thing to be one of those idiots thinking they're going to get 72 virgins for doing what they did. A whole new level of evil to pretend to be a Christian to pull people away from God on the delusion that you could do it better than he is doing it, therefore pretending God is inept, simply because you don't like how he does things.

Your sheepskin really doesn't hide the wolf. It's not even made of wool.

You nailed it. Thank God for those who can see and hold to sound doctrine!

 

[Marcelo]

Paul was following the traditions of the Pharisees which transgressed God's Laws, before his conversion. He never "kept" the Sabbath until he turned from the traditions of the mainstream church of his time, and was turned to the God of Abraham. It was then that he first "kept" God's Holy Sabbath He created for men.

But Paul said: as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

 

[Snoozy]

You nailed it. Thank God for those who can see and hold to sound doctrine!

did i understand right that ur saying God was in action in all those evil things shrume listed to which depleted said emphatically yes?

 

[Depleted]

I am curious how all those who claim they obey deal with the fact that they don't always. Do y'all just ignore that? Dismiss it? How do you deal with the fact that you aren't perfectly obedient? Or even that if obedience was a grade, you'd be happy with a bare pass/fail system? Skip getting an A. A D- is looking pretty good.

BTW, for the record, I have noticed I'm hearing crickets. No one who boasted on their obedience has been able to answer my questions.

I'm thinking it really is the blinder is on just right.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

did i understand right that ur saying God was in action in all those evil things shrume listed to which depleted said emphatically yes?

Thats why calvanism at its core should put a bad taste in your mouth. It has God creating evil. Not the flesh..

 

[Snoozy]

Thats why calvanism at its core should put a bad taste in your mouth. It has God creating evil. Not the flesh..

the list shrume gave was things done by the devil. he is getting people to do these things

this is on three fronts this battle:

1. flesh
2. world
3. devil

u got the flesh especially if ur deep into sin u got wicked thoughts to deal with

u got the world influencing u with wickedness everywhere.

and last but not least u got the devil himself roaring like a lion seeking whom he may devour

put on the whole armor

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the list shrume gave was things done by the devil. he is getting people to do these things

this is on three fronts this battle:

1. flesh
2. world
3. devil

u got the flesh especially if ur deep into sin u got wicked thoughts to deal with

u got the world influencing u with wickedness everywhere.

and last but not least u got the devil himself roaring like a lion seeking whom he may devour

put on the whole armor

I think satan is behind the spirit of the men, But I think the men, and their extreme hatred for the US, were easily tempted by the flesh to do those things, Life meant nothing to them.

 

[Depleted]

did i understand right that ur saying God was in action in all those evil things shrume listed to which depleted said emphatically yes?

Do you think God was sitting back stunned? Shocked that such things sneaked by him before he could stop it? Unable to use even evil for his glory and his people's good?

I keep going back to the Pharaoh who finally "let my people go." You do realize, God could have simply put the fire/cloud in the path between his people and Egypt at the very beginning, without needing ten plagues and one stubborn Pharoah, right? So why did God himself turn the Nile red, let loose the frogs, fleas, and locust, and ultimately killed every first born child, all before killing the entire Egyptian army AND Pharaoh? Was that evil?

God's ways aren't our ways. They are, however, always perfectly good and perfectly sovereign, even when it feels like anything but that.

 

[Depleted]

Thats why calvanism at its core should put a bad taste in your mouth. It has God creating evil. Not the flesh..

Right, because you created for yourself a god you could accept. Same problem Shrume has.

Liver leaves a bad taste in my mouth too, but ultimately it's good for me.

 

[Snoozy]

Do you think God was sitting back stunned? Shocked that such things sneaked by him before he could stop it? Unable to use even evil for his glory and his people's good?

I keep going back to the Pharaoh who finally "let my people go." You do realize, God could have simply put the fire/cloud in the path between his people and Egypt at the very beginning, without needing ten plagues and one stubborn Pharoah, right? So why did God himself turn the Nile red, let loose the frogs, fleas, and locust, and ultimately killed every first born child, all before killing the entire Egyptian army AND Pharaoh? Was that evil?

God's ways aren't our ways. They are, however, always perfectly good and perfectly sovereign, even when it feels like anything but that.

if ur saying that God does all wickedness in this world or somehow gets glory for the horrific sins people commit then thats a false doctrine right there.

100% disagree

 

[Depleted]

the list shrume gave was things done by the devil. he is getting people to do these things

this is on three fronts this battle:

1. flesh
2. world
3. devil

u got the flesh especially if ur deep into sin u got wicked thoughts to deal with

u got the world influencing u with wickedness everywhere.

and last but not least u got the devil himself roaring like a lion seeking whom he may devour

put on the whole armor

Job tells us what the devil has to do before unleashing -- he has to get God's okay. God is still sovereign even over Satan.

That verse in my signy isn't just to look good. It's God's word. It's his promise! "And we KNOW" and "ALL things."

 

[Depleted]

if ur saying that God does all wickedness in this world or somehow gets glory for the horrific sins people commit then thats a false doctrine right there.

100% disagree

I said what I'm saying. What are you missing?

 

[Snoozy]

Job tells us what the devil has to do before unleashing -- he has to get God's okay. God is still sovereign even over Satan.

That verse in my signy isn't just to look good. It's God's word. It's his promise! "And we KNOW" and "ALL things."

i thought all dont always mean all. what happened to that.

in limited atonement and john 12:32 it doesnt mean all, but here when its about wickedness all is included in all things working together?

yeah this is a false doctrine. i will never believe that God was behind such wickedness. thats not the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Issachar92]

i thought all dont always mean all. what happened to that.

in limited atonement and john 12:32 it doesnt mean all, but here when its about wickedness all is included in all things working together?

yeah this is a false doctrine. i will never believe that God was behind such wickedness. thats not the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Bwahahaha. All only means all when they want it to mean all. It dont mean all when they dont want it to mean all! Ya gotta ask the bible pundits and experts each time which one is which.

This is calvinism right here. What a mess. Ya cant win with these people, they switch the terminology, and move the goalpost as you go along. No point in debating, they got nothing but blanks. Only thing left is "you're misrepresenting me" or "You dont understand reformed theology" when they are losing the debate. Which is quote often.
Just make fun of it, alotta folks are coming out of it by themselves. The ones who dont are too deep in it.

Dont take it too seriously.

 

[Snoozy]

Only thing left is "you're misrepresenting me" or "You dont understand reformed theology"

its pretty complicated so maybe its true we are misrepresenting it sometimes. but i think what was said here about God being behind all that wickedness was clear to me and i saw no one tell me that i misunderstood so i take it thats what it is. i just find it hard to believe.