Augustine and Original Sin

[Red33]

Here is wisdom.

Eccl 5:1-3
1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.

 

[Abiding]

Scripture teaches us that we can judge the authentic from the counterfeit according to it's fruit. We can scripturally judge a Christian doctrine in the same manner as we can scripturally judge a Christian. How can I be blamed if the doctrine you hold to has produced fruit that the bible has deemed bad? Also, how can I be blamed if you believe that the doctrines of those men whom God has used to save the souls of millions, like Wesley & Finney, to be false and a heresy?

If it is your hearts desire to walk before the Lord rightly and to proclaim the gospel truthfully, then maybe you too need to take a much closer look at fruit of all the doctrines that you hold to be right or wrong and in doing so rethink your own personal theology?



[/QUOT

Well the thing is you still dont know what i believe. Because ive never told you, nor have you asked.
Presumption is a sin many fall into. So take your shots. You have since i got here. Yet your clueless
at what my theology is. You judge by appearance and by who people befriend. Naughty naughty!
Also if i defend someone no matter who it is, its point by point. Its not all or none.

As for fruit. That would be an interesting thread. In other words we have the two revivals one of Johnathan
Edwards and then Finney. Yes wanna look at the fruit of those two?

 

[Abiding]

ok red i get it

 

[Crossfire]

Scripture teaches us that we can judge the authentic from the counterfeit according to it's fruit. We can scripturally judge a Christian doctrine in the same manner as we can scripturally judge a Christian. How can I be blamed if the doctrine you hold to has produced fruit that the bible has deemed bad? Also, how can I be blamed if you believe that the doctrines of those men whom God has used to save the souls of millions, like Wesley & Finney, to be false and a heresy?

If it is your hearts desire to walk before the Lord rightly and to proclaim the gospel truthfully, then maybe you too need to take a much closer look at fruit of all the doctrines that you hold to be right or wrong and in doing so rethink your own personal theology?



[/QUOT

Well the thing is you still dont know what i believe. Because ive never told you, nor have you asked.
Presumption is a sin many fall into. So take your shots. You have since i got here. Yet your clueless
at what my theology is. You judge by appearance and by who people befriend. Naughty naughty!
Also if i defend someone no matter who it is, its point by point. Its not all or none.

As for fruit. That would be an interesting thread. In other words we have the two revivals one of Johnathan
Edwards and then Finney. Yes wanna look at the fruit of those two?

I never presumed to know what you believe. I simply stated that, as a rule of thumb, we should familiarize ourselves with the fruits of the doctrines that we hold dear as well as the doctrines that we do not approve of.

If you want to go through the effort of comparing the fruits of Edwards and Finney, go right ahead. It is a proven fact that, when visiting the same towns years later after Finney had preached there, Finney's revivals produced an 80% success rate as it pertains to the longevity of conversions (in other words, those converted under Finney remained converted) compared to a mere 15% success rate produced by Billy Graham. In fact, I have yet to find any other "Revivalist" with such a high success rate which is why I chose to read his writings. I also own the complete works of every major Revivalist from the 1700 & 1800s, including Edwards, and have read much of it.

While I have read much of Finney's writings, I do not hold to everything that he believes. I do believe that he does make many great points that should be taken into consideration however, I believe the same to be true of both Calvin and Arminius. While I do agree with Finney's concept of Physical depravity, I still question his ideas on moral depravity.

As for my personal beliefs, they are always evolving. As I read about these great men of God, I pay close attention to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. If I feel that the Holy Spirit is highlighting something, I make note of what it is and what I feel the Lord is saying about it then research it until I understand it then compare it to scripture. I then allow the Lord to show me how the pieces of the puzzle all fit together, then I simplify it so that a new believer can understand. I then put it to the test to see if it really works in daily life. This process has yet to fail.

My personal theology is an amalgam. I am neither a Calvinist nor Arminian nor Quaker nor Wesleyan nor Finneyan although you will find hints of each in my personal theology. What's important to me is that (1) it comes from the Lord, and (2) practical application (it really works).

I do not waste my time on spiritually dead theology which is why I stand firmly against any doctrine which makes allowances for sin.

 

[Crossfire]

Scripture teaches us that we can judge the authentic from the counterfeit according to it's fruit. We can scripturally judge a Christian doctrine in the same manner as we can scripturally judge a Christian. How can I be blamed if the doctrine you hold to has produced fruit that the bible has deemed bad? Also, how can I be blamed if you believe that the doctrines of those men whom God has used to save the souls of millions, like Wesley & Finney, to be false and a heresy?

If it is your hearts desire to walk before the Lord rightly and to proclaim the gospel truthfully, then maybe you too need to take a much closer look at fruit of all the doctrines that you hold to be right or wrong and in doing so rethink your own personal theology?



[/QUOT

Well the thing is you still dont know what i believe. Because ive never told you, nor have you asked.
Presumption is a sin many fall into. So take your shots. You have since i got here. Yet your clueless
at what my theology is. You judge by appearance and by who people befriend. Naughty naughty!
Also if i defend someone no matter who it is, its point by point. Its not all or none.

As for fruit. That would be an interesting thread. In other words we have the two revivals one of Johnathan
Edwards and then Finney. Yes wanna look at the fruit of those two?

As much as I like Edwards, neither he or Spurgeon compare to Whitefield, Wesley and Finney. In fact, you may want to really research your facts concerning Edwards, while Edwards was in deed a great man of God, many biased Reformed historians give him credit for the First Great Awakening when in truth it was Whitefield who carried both the banner and the brunt of the weight of the First Great Awakening in America. Many Reformists refuse to give credit where credit bis due thus denying Whitefield's involvement because of his close affiliation with Wesley.

 

[Abiding]

Well i dont think from what ive read in the forums that any group makes allowances for sin.
I do hear that accusation alot. But thats all it is...mixed with human sentiment. Also there is
a danger in being pragmatic in your judgement of fruit inspecting. Yes to a large degree.

The deal is is the how and mechanics of sanctification. We can on human power and will
overcome lots of bad vices and do a pretty convincing whitewash. And that can lead to pride
which is prolly worst than the awful sin we freed ourselves from.

I think self improvement can do lots. I think it can even provide you with a form of godliness.
But if your not denying the power thereof, then give the credit to the Lord. And then preach
folks what it means to abide in Christ, and to trust in His work that romans 8 promises He will
do.

This topic comes down to this. Do we trust in the Lord in all things. Or do we trust our efforts?
If i was new here and a babe i would have been convinced to go on a works trip, id have been
worried to death and prolly crashed(which i did do in my youth) then i entered into His rest.
And by trusting in His finished work He is at work in me to finish what He started. Just like He said He would.

 

[Abiding]

Well edwards himself first didnt even believe the revival was of God at first.
Nor did he take credit for it....few years later they booted him out of his own
church. Interesting guy and i love reading his writings.

 

[Skinski7]

Well i dont think from what ive read in the forums that any group makes allowances for sin.
I do hear that accusation alot. But thats all it is...mixed with human sentiment. Also there is
a danger in being pragmatic in your judgement of fruit inspecting. Yes to a large degree.

Let's put that to the test shall we.


Is there any sin or sins that must be stopped BEFORE God will forgive you of those sins?

I'll be even more specific.

If a man is addicted to pornography and knowing it to be wrong but continually struggles with it.

Does this man have to stop viewing pornography BEFORE God will forgive him of this sin?

 

[Crossfire]

Well edwards himself first didnt even believe the revival was of God at first.
Nor did he take credit for it....few years later they booted him out of his own
church. Interesting guy and i love reading his writings.

I do have much respect and adoration for Edwards and his mentor David Brainard. While I may not agree with everything Edwards taught, there is no doubt in my mind that he was a great man of God thus I take his works seriously. In fact, if it had not been for the Puritans' brutal treatment of the Quakers, I would've admired the Puritans greatly.

If you like Edwards and you have an open mind, I suggest reading Asa Mahan's rebuttle concerning Edwards ideas on the Sovereignty of God. Asa Mahan, an American Presbyterian, was a contemporary of Finney's. While the two of them were friends and colleagues at Oberlin College, Mahan was one of the few men of the era who's intellect could rival Finney's thus the two would have very lively discussions. Nothing sharpens iron like other iron. Both would push the theological envelope which would in turn fuel the flames of the abolition of slavery in America just as William Wilburforce did in England during his lifetime.

 

[Abiding]

Let's put that to the test shall we.


Is there any sin or sins that must be stopped BEFORE God will forgive you of those sins?

I'll be even more specific.

If a man is addicted to pornography and knowing it to be wrong but continually struggles with it.

Does this man have to stop viewing pornography BEFORE God will forgive him of this sin?

thats a tough question to answer briefly. If the man confesses a sin God forgives and cleanses.
If the man tries to stop and is bound or overtaken by the sin and cant deal with it on his own and
if he stops and falls in again until he learns to trust God and resists the sin humbly before God who
will provide him the grace(power) to overcome it he may simply struggle in vain.

In otherwords as i hear sin is a choice. some sins will be chosen rather than obedience because of
the weakness of the flesh. Same reason that the law didnt work but to magnify the knowledge of sin.
Sin is not simply a choice...it is a principle or a law. Sexual sins cant be treated the same...we dont just
resist...we flee. Addicted is a more contemporary psychological term that was coined to lessen the crime
and give excuses for it. I thought that was a no-no.

IF we confess a sin and ask for the grace to overcome it God will surely help as He promises to.

I have confessed sin to the Lord while i was in the sin. He delivered me out of the bondage of it.
Did He forgive me first? I simply dont know. But i know this...He had mercy on me and He delivered me.
Forgiveness isnt all we need...we need cleansed...washed and regenerated by the Holyspirit. That comes
from faithfulness in our trusting dependence on Him not on our resolve. rom7

So the answer to you question is no God will forgive the sinner who beats his chest and cries out for mercy
then the man goes down justified and God cleanses him. While the pharisee thanks God hes not like all
the other sinners in the church.

 

[Skinski7]

thats a tough question to answer briefly. If the man confesses a sin God forgives and cleanses.
If the man tries to stop and is bound or overtaken by the sin and cant deal with it on his own and
if he stops and falls in again until he learns to trust God and resists the sin humbly before God who
will provide him the grace(power) to overcome it he may simply struggle in vain.

In otherwords as i hear sin is a choice. some sins will be chosen rather than obedience because of
the weakness of the flesh. Same reason that the law didnt work but to magnify the knowledge of sin.
Sin is not simply a choice...it is a principle or a law. Sexual sins cant be treated the same...we dont just
resist...we flee. Addicted is a more contemporary psychological term that was coined to lessen the crime
and give excuses for it. I thought that was a no-no.

IF we confess a sin and ask for the grace to overcome it God will surely help as He promises to.

I have confessed sin to the Lord while i was in the sin. He delivered me out of the bondage of it.
Did He forgive me first? I simply dont know. But i know this...He had mercy on me and He delivered me.
Forgiveness isnt all we need...we need cleansed...washed and regenerated by the Holyspirit. That comes
from faithfulness in our trusting dependence on Him not on our resolve. rom7

So the answer to you question is no God will forgive the sinner who beats his chest and cries out for mercy
then the man goes down justified and God cleanses him. While the pharisee thanks God hes not like all
the other sinners in the church.

All rhetoric aside that in the bold is the problem.

You believe that you get saved in your sins and so do all the pastors in every denomination. It is a false gospel message.

The Bible says this...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

You use this parable to justify saved in sins.

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Prodigal Son did what the publican did...

Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

Yet the son FIRST left the pig pen.

Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

The Prodigal Son did this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

A person who views pornography must FORSAKE that sin before God will forgive him. The sin is forsaken through a godly sorrow that works a genuine repentance unto salvation.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Godly sorrow --------------> Repentance --------------> Salvation

It is through godly sorrow that the desires change.

2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

A pornography addict is lead away by the lust of his flesh like this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Yet through repentance this happens.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This happens...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


This is not being taught in the churches. The churches teach what you teach, that you "should" stop, to "ask for more grace," "to trust" but in the meantime the sin continues and the professing Christian is double minded and serving two masters because the flesh has not been crucified.

It is another Gospel. It is a very subtle satanic deception, it is a strong delusion which overtakes the mind and has inbuilt defences to keep the victim in a trance.

The inbuilt defences are original sin and a faulty view of the atonement, namely penal substitution. Those errors are so deeply ingrained in the mind that when the truth is heard it is rejected because of the cognitive dissonance it causes in the mind.

It generally does not matter how much scripture someone like me shows you, it is always rejected and the fallacy upheld.

Go and read the parable of the Prodigal Son, go read Isaiah chapters 1 and 55, Pro 28:13, Jer 26, Jonah 3 with Nineveh and all the words of Jesus and be honest with yourself and see if "saved in sins" fits the text.

It doesn't fit at all. This jesus in the churches is the image of the beast and the pastors are dispensing the mark of the flesh upon all who receive the free gift.

Go read the early church (pre-Augustine) and you will see that a completely different Gospel was preached. There is none of this "receive and trust in Jesus, it was repent and obey, die with Christ and be raised up with Him, walk in the light, be holy, and endure to the end.

Don't be deceived.




[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWXSTeHl1dc[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

Carefully read this passage here...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

The blood does not cleanse anyone while they are still engaged in filthy behaviour. One cannot approach God with a true and honest heart with full assurance if they are still defiling themselves in sin. You have to be walking in the light and then the blood cleanses you of all sin.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

[Skinski7]

Man has the ability to forsake sin because sin is a choice. God has already provided light to all men and His grace has appeared to all. God is calling all men to repentance and if they will repent He will raise them up by His power to newness of life and they will be empowered to walk in victory of sin and the devil.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Nineveh repented. The Prodigal Son repented.

So can you!



Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Repent ------------> Conversion -----------------> Sins blotted out at refreshing.

 

[Abiding]

I think you might be a moron at this point. I havnt any disagreement with what you just said, but this.
But what you said is not all of it.

Example: John 15 says without me you can do nothingthen it says If you love me keep my commandments.
are you saying you can do it without Him? If so your a boastful hypocritical heretic. That has no understanding of anything more than your socalled porn addiction. Something many unsaved folk have overcome.

Let me cut to the chase...all believers must mortify the flesh. All must turn from sin. If your born again then your new heart with holy affections
yearn and desire this and the Holyspirit washes and regenerates you. Period. if your preaching to the tares which make up the majority of the visible
church then your preaching to deadheads...good luck. If i were you id preach the gospel instead.

 

[Abiding]

i was here last summer and thought it was bad.
this crew is even more flesh/pragmatic than then



Are you saying man can repent without being empowered by God?
a dead man cannot not repent alone without God any more than he can make a moon.

 

[Abiding]

heres a song that this thread reminds me of....thank God He is my keeper
my saviour, My strength and my God and My friend and my sanctifier and my life
and that i can put my trust in all the time and feel safe.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBm0ELc8eyY[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

I think you might be a moron at this point. I havnt any disagreement with what you just said, but this.
But what you said is not all of it.

Example: John 15 says without me you can do nothingthen it says If you love me keep my commandments.
are you saying you can do it without Him? If so your a boastful hypocritical heretic. That has no understanding of anything more than your socalled porn addiction. Something many unsaved folk have overcome.

Let me cut to the chase...all believers must mortify the flesh. All must turn from sin. If your born again then your new heart with holy affections
yearn and desire this and the Holyspirit washes and regenerates you. Period. if your preaching to the tares which make up the majority of the visible
church then your preaching to deadheads...good luck. If i were you id preach the gospel instead.

Are you saying man can repent without being empowered by God?
a dead man cannot not repent alone without God any more than he can make a moon.

Every person has been given light.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Every person has been shown the grace of God.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Indeed we cannot bear fruit lest we abide in Christ.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Yet these things do not support you get saved in your sins. They do not support that God forgives a sinner while he is still walking according to the flesh.

Man has already been empower by God to repent, Nineveh was able to repent and Jesus used Nineveh as an example of repentance. God indeed grants repentance through working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure but we have to respond to that work and yield. This is the grace of God at work and it has appeared to all men.

The Bible does not support anyone getting forgiven while they are willfully committing vile sins. It is a very simple truth and I have layed it out very clearly.

When you yield to the passions and desires of the flesh in disobedience to God it is sin. When we come to Christ we crucify those desires and make the choice not to yield to them anymore. Thus those that are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. That is what the Bible teaches and it is the crucifixion of the flesh which is offensive to people.

The church system teaches that the crucifixion of the flesh occurs gradually. They teach you get saved in your sins and then over time God cleans you up and you sin less and less. The problem is that the old man was never crucified and thus they are trying to reform the carnal man. It does not work, the convert is still dead in their sins as they wait on God to change them. It is a deadly deception that leads people to hell.

When we suffer with Christ and put on the mind of Christ we cease from the sins of the flesh.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

The flesh is crucified thus we do not yield to those desires anymore because our minds have changed. It is through a broken repentance that a sinner throws themselves on the rock of Christ and God then raises the new believer up by the power of God to newness of life. Their eyes are opened and they then walk a crucified life according to the Spirit.

The church system has converts double minded trying to serve two masters. Jesus taught that you cannot serve two masters. Light and darkness do not mix, your theology says it does mix.

You say,

Let me cut to the chase...all believers must mortify the flesh. All must turn from sin. If your born again then your new heart with holy affections
yearn and desire this and the Holyspirit washes and regenerates you. Period. if your preaching to the tares which make up the majority of the visible

Yet you say that there is no sin that you have to stop before God will forgive you. Thus you are contradicting yourself. The pornography watcher must crucify his flesh in repentance which means he has to stop that sin, then God will raise him up in regeneration.

Thus a true believer walks after the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the flesh. It is not something that is "going to happen" in the future.

Your theology makes an allowance for it occurring later on because you said that "no" a porn watcher does not have to forsake his sin before forgiveness. Thus if he does not have to forsake his sin before forgiveness it means he can continue to do it for a time. That is a theology which makes an allowance for continued sin and not surely dying.

See how simple this is?

Look at all the scriptures I have posted as the Bible clearly lays it out. None of this is complicated, what is complicated is the doctrines of men which completely nullify the simplicity in Christ.

The reason the church system is full of sin is because they are preaching a "saved in sins" message as opposed to a "saved from sin" message. They do not preach a genuine repentance message where the flesh is crucified.

 

[Skinski7]

So what we have today is a church system where sin is tolerated in the midst.

Pornography is a very good example. Many churches have porn addiction classes where the people with a porn problem can learn how to overcome their vice. Never are they told that they need to repent and forsake that sin otherwise they will lose their soul. Instead they are coddled in their sin and fed smooth words. They are merchandised by selling them books and dvds.

When was the last time you ever heard a sermon where the pastor said that those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires, that they have denied themselves, picked up their cross and followed Jesus, that they layed aside all their filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in order to receive with meekness the implanted word which can save their souls? When has the pastor called upon his congregation to do these things lest they be disqualified from the kingdom? Never I bet.

Instead they teach that Jesus obeyed for you and that His obedience is credited to your account and that God views you through a Jesus filter. They teach that Jesus paid the price for all your sins, past, present, and future and thus all you have to do is trust in that provision (never mind that the Bible specifically states PAST SINS). God will then work with you to clean up your life as you are gradually sanctified.

It is a totally different Gospel. There is no heart purity, only double-minded hypocrisy. I have contacts many pastors and asked them if any sins have to stop before forgiveness is granted and every single one of them says no. They even tell me the sin does not have to stop afterwards but that it "should" stop and that you must have a "desire" to stop. Never stop, they just cannot say any sin whatsoever must stop.

I urge people to get out of the church system and to dig deep into their Bibles. This is the apostasy that was warned of in the Bible.

During the time of Jeremiah the religious system was totally apostate. The religious leaders in Jesus time were totally apostate, outwardly righteous yet filthy within. Why would it be any different today?

5 out of the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 were already deep in error. Do people think that 2000 years later it is not worse?

Jesus warned that MANY false teachers would come and they they would deceive MANY. Jesus said that MANY would stand before Him utterly rejected because they did not do the Father's will but instead worked iniquity. These people called Him "Lord" and they did many wonderful works in His name. The Church system today is full of good works, full of charity, helping people, yet it is full of sin because the gospel message being preached is a lie.

Don't be deceived, this is not a game.

 

[Abiding]

This is what i disagree with in part. That God wont forgive you before He cleanses you.
The bible says He will forgive you then cleanse you...thats how the Holyspirit had it written
and thats where ill stand.

The porn guy must stop to get a full restored relationship.(do we really have to talk about porn?)
Why would a porn watcher even confess his sin? because he already overcame it...making himself his own saviour?
What does it mean to cease from your own works to enter His rest

you say:Your theology makes an allowance for it occurring later on because you said that "no" a porn watcher does not have to forsake his sin before forgiveness. Thus if he does not have to forsake his sin before forgiveness it means he can continue to do it for a time. That is a theology which makes an allowance for continued sin and not surely dying.

a grandson asks me to help him tie his shoe...so i send him away and say forsake your innability of shoe tieing and i will help
in the meantime even tho you cant do anything without my grace i refuse to help. Do i need to fill 5 pages here?

Isaiah says to learn to do good and forsake evil. Yes there is a process. You think there isnt? Are you now perfect?

No! we are saved In sin and from sin. We have a legal standing and we have a state. Our state is in process. Our standing
is perfect in Christ Jesus.

Im not at odds with the scriptures you posted. I am at odds with YOUR thinking. And it seems that you are saying its a matter of faith
in our works that give us the mind of Christ.....rather than a growth in grace and knowledge. From a ever faithful caring Father.

Wake up the reason the church is full of sin is because it is full of tares.
The blood bought saints are tended to by the great shephard.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

It should be a yes or no answer, on when the sin stops, but if you believe in original sin, then you believe man is unable to repent and forsake thier sin to receive the mercy of God, easily layed out in scripture, where its always repentance unto salvation, ISA 55-7 in my favorite one.

Its not difficult to understand we have the ability to stop sinning before God will grant us mercy, the spirit is with us as we yield to the conviction, and deep regret for our sins of the flesh.

I was saved In my sins, at several churches that taught just receive Jesus, confess your sins to Him, and all your sins are forgiven, NO repentance or clearing at all.

I Thus was put in accountability groups, and programs to help me with my addictions, which for me was porn, I stopped it for many months it, but went back to it when i was weak, and just used the excuse i am a poor sinner, saved by grace, and its the sin IN me that is causing me to fall again and again into this sin plus many more, my heart hardened several times as I went back into the world, but the problem was I was double minded.

The church is full of carnal Christians, fornication Christians, Porn watching Christians, etc, who never repented, and crucified thier flesh with Christ.

I repented of these vile sins once and for all, came out of the church as the spirit of God led me into repentance, it was quite humbling and it broke my pride as I yielded to the conviction of the spirit, and came to a saving faith, cleansed and purged of all dead works, walking in newness of life.

I now walk IN the light, through the power and grace of God, denying my flesh, and worldly Passions I used to enjoy, knowing that my old man had to be crucified IN repentance, not after as many of you here believe.

The sin stops in repentance, or the heart hardens, repentance clears, and purifies the heart to receive the spirit of God!

You are Saved by: James1:21-22
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

The Receiving with Meekness is Repentance with godly sorry. The Implanted Word is what you Obey.

FAITH IS OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH, A WORK, YOU DO NOT OBEY, YOU SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.