Augustine and Original Sin

Abiding · May 20, 2012

another though came to mind how the Holy spirit refered to righteous Lot.
Righteous? said his poor soul was vexed. Was he delivered in his sin?
Does God know how to deliver His people?

You read half the council of God...there is more to the whole council of God.
Both are part of the truth. But you looking at mens outward appearance and
the apostate church. Preach the gospel.

Abiding · May 20, 2012

Tommy4Christ said:

It should be a yes or no answer, on when the sin stops, but if you believe in original sin, then you believe man is unable to repent and forsake thier sin to receive the mercy of God, easily layed out in scripture, where its always repentance unto salvation, ISA 55-7 in my favorite one.

Its not difficult to understand we have the ability to stop sinning before God will grant us mercy, the spirit is with us as we yield to the conviction, and deep regret for our sins of the flesh.

I was saved In my sins, at several churches that taught just receive Jesus, confess your sins to Him, and all your sins are forgiven, NO repentance or clearing at all.

I Thus was put in accountability groups, and programs to help me with my addictions, which for me was porn, I stopped it for many months it, but went back to it when i was weak, and just used the excuse i am a poor sinner, saved by grace, and its the sin IN me that is causing me to fall again and again into this sin plus many more, my heart hardened several times as I went back into the world, but the problem was I was double minded.

The church is full of carnal Christians, fornication Christians, Porn watching Christians, etc, who never repented, and crucified thier flesh with Christ.

I repented of these vile sins once and for all, came out of the church as the spirit of God led me into repentance, it was quite humbling and it broke my pride as I yielded to the conviction of the spirit, and came to a saving faith, cleansed and purged of all dead works, walking in newness of life.

I now walk IN the light, through the power and grace of God, denying my flesh, and worldly Passions I used to enjoy, knowing that my old man had to be crucified IN repentance, not after as many of you here believe.

The sin stops in repentance, or the heart hardens, repentance clears, and purifies the heart to receive the spirit of God!

You are Saved by: James1:21-22
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

The Receiving with Meekness is Repentance with godly sorry. The Implanted Word is what you Obey.

FAITH IS OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH, A WORK, YOU DO NOT OBEY, YOU SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

just more of the same sentiment driven theology rather than biblical driven. Of coarse you can repent and
forsake sin...just as easy as a man with a withered hand can stretch if forth....preach that please.
And please quit the teaching that man can do it on his own.

Yes we can do this by the grace of God...please dont forget that...if you wanna think your teaching the truth.
then teach Christ...the power of His ressurrection. And less bellyaching about the church...we all know its apostate.
But theres a remnant.

Tommy4Christ · May 20, 2012

All the reformed teachings have made biblical repentance a thing of the past, yes there is a process, and it begins with stopping the sin in repentance, then walking in an obedient faith out of love from the heart.

Here is the process laid out clearly in seripture:

repentance unto salvation!

Repentance is an urgent desire to change! (2 Corinthians 7:11) You believe from your heart. You obey to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32) He comes into a clean vessel. A heart made pure by faith (obedience) Acts 15:9) you obey and keep obeying, daily, to keep your heart pure and undefiled from the world! (1 Peter 1:22) That's how it works! Genuine repentance involves humility, brokenness and is a humiliating experience. When the true light of God's word floods into your soul, you see yourself as you are, in rebellion to God! This is what godly sorrow is all about. Deep regret for your sin's, a season of sorrow, leading to salvation! (2 Corinthians 7:10) not getting saved in your disobedience and sin's, but out of them, through true repentance first where the flesh is crucified with Christ, and put to death! (Galatians 2:20) cleansed to receive the Holy Spirit!

Now you got salvation!

Skinski7 · May 20, 2012

Abiding said:

The cleansing is not from future willful sinning. It is a cleansing and a purifying of the soul of all defilement. An individual has to willingly forsake their sin first.

James wrote this...

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Isa 55:7, Pro 28:13, Jer 26:13, Ja1 1:21, the parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of Nineveh all confirm that the willful transgession stops prior to forgiveness. You are using rhetoric to contradict that. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible which says that your future sins are already forgiven, if you think there is then quote it.

Rom 3:25 clearly says PAST SINS. Why would Paul write PAST SINS if he meant future as well? It does not make sense because the future forgiveness of sins is nonsense and is a result of the fallacy of Penal Substitution.

This is your error...

You believe in an abstract salvation where you are clean but still filthy at the same time. You view righteousness as merely positional not actual. That doctrine came out of the reformation and a dangerous false teaching. Jesus did not teach any such thing nor did anyone else in the Bible.

In fact John wrote this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Are you unwittingly trying to deceive people that you can be righteous yet still filthy? That is what you are saying. You teach this gradual "in process" clean up where the convert is serving light and darkness, where the old man is not yet crucified. Paul wrote in Gal 5:24 that those in Christ HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires, yet you deny that scripture and say it is a process.

Growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ is not the same as sinning less and less. All willful sin which flows from a rebellious and defiled heart must stop in repentance. There may still be things that the new believer is doing non-presumptuously that they need to correct but those things are vastly different to yielding to the flesh in rebellion to known righteousness.

In fact Peter warns not to be drawn away into the error of the wicked but rather grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

If you go back to chapter 1 of that letter you see this reference to grace and knowledge. He then speaks of how we HAVE escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust so that we may be partakers of the divine nature.

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust has to do with crucifying the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24), the old man being crucified (Rom 6:6), thus not yielding to these lusts and sinning (Jas 1:14-15). This sort of sin stops (1Pet 4:1-2). Examine those scriptures very carefully in their full context.

The bottom line is that the false gospel you believe makes an allowance for the continuation of willful transgression and not surely dying because you don't believe that the flesh with its passions and desires are crucified in repentance. Instead you teach that a believer has the magic cloak of Jesus while they stil remain defiled but God sees them as positionally righteous which totally contradicts 1Joh 3:7.

Abiding · May 20, 2012

Tommy4Christ said:

All the reformed teachings have made biblical repentance a thing of the past, yes there is a process, and it begins with stopping the sin in repentance, then walking in an obedient faith out of love from the heart.

Here is the process laid out clearly in seripture:

repentance unto salvation!

Repentance is an urgent desire to change! (2 Corinthians 7:11) You believe from your heart. You obey to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32) He comes into a clean vessel. A heart made pure by faith (obedience) Acts 15:9) you obey and keep obeying, daily, to keep your heart pure and undefiled from the world! (1 Peter 1:22) That's how it works! Genuine repentance involves humility, brokenness and is a humiliating experience. When the true light of God's word floods into your soul, you see yourself as you are, in rebellion to God! This is what godly sorrow is all about. Deep regret for your sin's, a season of sorrow, leading to salvation! (2 Corinthians 7:10) not getting saved in your disobedience and sin's, but out of them, through true repentance first where the flesh is crucified with Christ, and put to death! (Galatians 2:20) cleansed to receive the Holy Spirit!

Now you got salvation!

Yes all that is very true. Are you there?
And how long did it take for you to grow
to this understanding?

Because you make it sound like it takes only a few minutes.

Tommy4Christ · May 20, 2012

Abiding,

I am praying you can see through your reformed glasses, and how you are out of line with what the word teaches, I wont argue with you, just give you truth, even though you think I am wrong, or want to label me a not so nice name.

what you need to do it throw out all your reformed teachings, such as OS, faith alone, Saved in sin teachings, get away from the teachings of mere men, and love the truth at all cost!

Gal 5:24 But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Do you belong to Jesus? can you honestly say you have crucified your flesh with Him? Many think since they have said the prayer, confessed their sins, and now believe Jesus did it all for them, they are saved and got their ticket to heaven!
The word is clear, those who belong to Christ, HAVE crucified their flesh, and this comes through repentance and faith proven by deeds. 2 Cor 7-10-11.
IF you are still in bondage to sin, and worldliness, then you have not crucified your flesh with Christ.
Jesus didn't come to save us IN our sins but FROM them, and those who belong to Him HAVE crucified their flesh in reality, not may crucify, or will crucify, or Jesus is my cover, NO.
The flesh is put to death with Christ, as we walk in newness of life, seeking His glory, being obedient to His truth and commands.
Salvation is real, here , and now, not some abstract thing you did many years ago because you accepted a package deal where He covered you IN sin and disobedience.
Many who believe this are in great error, the crucified life of a believer is easy to see, they will not be in any bondage to vile sins, hate the world and its ways, and have no desire to pollute their minds with the harsh media, entertainments, and diversions that keep them as lovers of pleasure over lovers of God!

eternally-gratefull · May 20, 2012

Abiding said:

He will never get it my friend. thinks we have to change and stop first. Repentance means a change of heart. It takes repentnace first, then the change happens.

If one is not born of God, they can't change, for they do not have God to change them, they want to do it their way, and not Gods way. and they condemn anyone who does not do it there way

Tommy4Christ · May 20, 2012

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who died has been justified from sin.

The old man(flesh) IS crucified with Him(Jesus) so that the body of sin might be destroyed! Many think all this crucifying of the flesh is done when we accept
Jesus as our savior, they think they cant, wont, or are simply unable to do this command from God!
Would God give His creation a task we couldn't complete? Would He say these words as a suggestion and not a command to do?
You cannot serve two masters, you cannot mix light and darkness! You must choose this day whom you shall serve, God or flesh!
Being crucified with Christ isn't sinless perfection, earning anything from God, or a mere fruit of repentance, no its a sign that you have actually obeyed God, and put your old man to death once and for all!
You cannot serve sin and God together, His mercy is huge, and His patients and longsuffering is evident to those in rebellion who are still alive and can breath!.
To crucify your flesh with Christ means the sin stops, cut off at the root, so that it may be destroyed, now you are dead to sin, and alive to God and righteousness, which simple means doing what is right.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous
This all occurs through real repentance and faith, 2 Corin 7-10-11, where the sin stops, or the heart hardens towards God. Its not being obsessed with sin, but being obsessed with what God told us to do to be saved, and doing the right thing out of obedience from the heart!
,
Quote from Skinski7:
True Biblical Salvation = Set free from the dominion of sin and being forgiven of all past sins (i.e.. you are saved in actuality, empowered to walk in purity before God. The convert does not remain double minded, light and darkness does not mix, and the rebellion to God has stopped.
This rebellion must be crucified with Christ, once and for all, not gradually or in part, as He has commanded us to do, its our reasonable act of service!
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Abiding · May 20, 2012

No tommy im not the problem neither is reformed teaching...well most of it. I understand there
are reformed teachings that are not right. But ive never belonged to a reformed church or been
schooled by them.

Answer the question...do you sin?

You must be joking that we have no standing in Christ Jesus. Thats why His death tore the vail open.
We now come Boldly before the throne of grace to find grace and mercy in time of need. What is
our need?

My reason for even jumping in is to verify from you and your likeminded folk. Who
i know have grown in grace and knowledge to get where you are in your understanding.
How long did it take you? 5 seconds? or years...and why?

Sin causes death and loss of relationship. Im not one that likes sin. Im not one who overlooks sin
just how much death can you handle? Thats not the point.

Heres the point. Your looking at weeds or tares and bellyaching some of you. While true sheep need
a meal. Show the implications and applications of the word, let them know they are ok. And they will grow
to stay abiding on the vine and obey their Lord from their Love for Him because He first Loved them
and died for them.

Stop scaring the crap out of them and teach. Im telling ya even tho you are dead on in the theology
of mortification...Your plain wrong about original sin and wrong that original sin produces excuses.
There is no logic in that at all.

We are born condemned and without hope does that make people who stay condemned stay condemned?
I may be all rhetoric while your sentimental.

Abiding · May 20, 2012

Ive had my share today of moments of immediate clarity.
Just now i was so glad to have my mind fixed on the fact that Gods mercy endures forever..
thankyou Lord. That is sure a comfort.

Tombo · May 20, 2012

Abiding said:

I have to give you credit, brother, not many can keep shining the light in the eyes of the blind for as long as you have in this thread. I have tried in other posts and they refuse to listen. They know the truth, but have been blocked by pirde in their "works" and "goodness" to want to see it.
All they do is copy and paste from their leaders, they don't speak for themselves. It's something called being brainwashed. It sounds like I'm being humorous, but I really feel sad for them. My main concern is for the unsuspecting who may be listening to them. A little leaven can leaven the whole lump. It doesn't take long for mans pride to assert itself. Pretty soon we could have a whole forum full of skinski7s and Tommy4s. But I know that God knows His own and will protect them, so I'm not so worried. But God works through means, namely, people like us to keep preaching the truth of God's salvation in Christ alone. So that means work for us. Who knows, maybe they will one day realize that they are born dead in sin and are completely dependent on God for all of their salvation. If they keep trampling Christ under foot the way that they've been doing, I would not want to be in their shoes on judgment day. Can you imagine coming before the Almighty with the boast, "LOOK AT HOW GOOD WE WERE LORD. LET US INTO OUR ETERNAL REST WITH YOU. WE HAVE REPENTED, YOU MUST LET US IN. WE HAVE USED OUR FREEWILL AND GOODNESS TO OBEY YOU. WE REALLY DIDN'T NEED JESUS, BUT THANKS ANYWAY. JESUS WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE (OF WHO KNOWS WHAT), BUT WE HAD THE POWER TO REPENT AND SAVE OURSELVES, SO HIS SACRIFICE WASN'T REALLY NECESSARY. WE HAD GOODNESS WITHIN US ALL ALONG. THAT GUY PAUL LIED IN YOUR WORD WHEN HE SAID WE WERE SLAVES TO SIN AND COULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO SAVE OURSELVES, AND THAT WE HAD TO REST COMPLETELY IN YOUR SON FOR OUR SALVATION. SURELY YOU MUST SEE HOW YOUR WORD WAS WRONG ON THIS POINT LORD. I GUESS EVEN GOD MAKES MISTAKES. LORD, WE WEREN'T REALLY DEAD IN SIN, WE WERE JUST FOOLED BY FOLLOWING BAD EXAMPLES. WE HATE TO KEEP CORRECTING YOU LORD, SO PLEASE JUST LET US INTO OUR REST AND WE WILL STOP CRITICIZING YOU AND YOUR WORD."
It is sad, but true. May God have mercy on them.

Tom

Tommy4Christ · May 20, 2012

There is only one truth, I had to come out of the false church system and get into the word myself, and took me quite awhile to forsake all the errors coming out of the reformation as I described.

The message is simple when you remove the cloud of errors and see the simplicity that is in Christ!

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Tombo · May 20, 2012

Tommy4Christ said:

You see, it's hard for them to speak without the copy and paste method. Without it, they say very little of any real substance.
Oh well. I will still pray for you and skinski. I know that God can change the hardest heart, since He changed mine.
God bless.

Tom

Tombo · May 21, 2012

gogeta0064 said:

i dont think they're "going to these men for understanding".

within Calvinism and Arminianism, many Arminians state that Charles Finney was a Pelagian for what he taught... i think crossfire and tommy4christ disagree with one another on this (please correct me if im wrong)...

personally, i dont think we search for Christ first, because i know Finney taught that... Jesus has to start that first... and He did when He died on the cross.

now, concerning original sin, i was reading Romans 5:12, and while i do see that death was transferred unto all men, i dont see where sin is passed genetically to all men. Romans 5:12 only mentions the physical consequences is passed to all of mankind. it never specifically states that all men are born as evil sinners.

i know that some protestants here will use some of the psalms to prove it, but I've read those as well...
i've never seen a newborn lie, let alone speak...

I'd try to explain, zilla64007, but I know you understand

.

Tom

Abiding · May 21, 2012

Tombo said:

I have to give you credit, brother, not many can keep shining the light in the eyes of the blind for as long as you have in this thread. I have tried in other posts and they refuse to listen. They know the truth, but have been blocked by pirde in their "works" and "goodness" to want to see it.
All they do is copy and paste from their leaders, they don't speak for themselves. It's something called being brainwashed. It sounds like I'm being humorous, but I really feel sad for them. My main concern is for the unsuspecting who may be listening to them. A little leaven can leaven the whole lump. It doesn't take long for mans pride to assert itself. Pretty soon we could have a whole forum full of skinski7s and Tommy4s. But I know that God knows His own and will protect them, so I'm not so worried. But God works through means, namely, people like us to keep preaching the truth of God's salvation in Christ alone. So that means work for us. Who knows, maybe they will one day realize that they are born dead in sin and are completely dependent on God for all of their salvation. If they keep trampling Christ under foot the way that they've been doing, I would not want to be in their shoes on judgment day. Can you imagine coming before the Almighty with the boast, "LOOK AT HOW GOOD WE WERE LORD. LET US INTO OUR ETERNAL REST WITH YOU. WE HAVE REPENTED, YOU MUST LET US IN. WE HAVE USED OUR FREEWILL AND GOODNESS TO OBEY YOU. WE REALLY DIDN'T NEED JESUS, BUT THANKS ANYWAY. JESUS WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE (OF WHO KNOWS WHAT), BUT WE HAD THE POWER TO REPENT AND SAVE OURSELVES, SO HIS SACRIFICE WASN'T REALLY NECESSARY. WE HAD GOODNESS WITHIN US ALL ALONG. THAT GUY PAUL LIED IN YOUR WORD WHEN HE SAID WE WERE SLAVES TO SIN AND COULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO SAVE OURSELVES, AND THAT WE HAD TO REST COMPLETELY IN YOUR SON FOR OUR SALVATION. SURELY YOU MUST SEE HOW YOUR WORD WAS WRONG ON THIS POINT LORD. I GUESS EVEN GOD MAKES MISTAKES. LORD, WE WEREN'T REALLY DEAD IN SIN, WE WERE JUST FOOLED BY FOLLOWING BAD EXAMPLES. WE HATE TO KEEP CORRECTING YOU LORD, SO PLEASE JUST LET US INTO OUR REST AND WE WILL STOP CRITICIZING YOU AND YOUR WORD."
It is sad, but true. May God have mercy on them.

Tom

ya im ready to petition they be banned and let them have their pursecution complex be filled

gogeta0064 · May 21, 2012

Tombo said:

if that's supposed to be sarcasm, it wasn't that good of a job, tombo... Im not here to cause problems. im simply here to read the Bible, and share with other what i got out of it

gogeta0064 · May 21, 2012

Abiding said:

what's wrong with what he said, abiding?

Tombo · May 21, 2012

gogeta0064 said:

It's not very Christian to be deceptive. I know changing your IP address is easy enough, but you could have at least changed your age and not put so many likes on skinski7s posts. Dead give away.
Oh well.
God bless.

Tom

gogeta0064 · May 21, 2012

Tombo said:

and it's not very Christian either to falsely accuse others of lies and false doctrine and falsely accuse others of slander.
you've been doing that constantly with anyone who disagrees with you, and i got to a point to where i got sick and tired of it. you do it to me, skinski7, tommy4christ, and any other person who disagrees with you... you label them as "heretics", "unsaved", "nonbelievers", etc... you attack, insult, degrade, demean, and ad hominem every chance you get when someone has a differing opinion.

consider yourself reported.

Tombo · May 21, 2012

gogeta0064 said:

I have not falsely accused or slandered anyone. What those men teach is not found in the Bible, but is a figment of thier own imagination. I must warn others to flee from their teaching if I find it unbiblical. I can't help it if you dislike me correcting people according to what I see in God's word.
At least you were honest enough to admit you registered under another name after being banned from this site.
God bless.

Tom

Augustine and Original Sin

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