" Be not deceived" some scripture
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“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire." (Matt. 18:6-8)
Jesus seems very serious about whether or not we sin.
So, I guess Peter and Paul had no idea of what Jesus said there before the Cross when they preached the gospel of the grace of Christ?
Look at the word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of Christ being preached and no where does it say to "forgive first or you will not be forgiven" I'll give you the exact scripture references . Peter - Acts 10:43 and Paul Acts 13:38
Have you ever heard Billy Graham say " Forgive people first before you come to receive Christ's forgiveness"?..of course not..it is anti-the gospel.
It is extremely important to read all scriptures in their context - even the words of Jesus. I understand this conflicts with some of our religious beliefs passed on by mad-made traditions which nullify the grace of God.
The Cross of Christ changed from living according to law and we are now in the grace of Christ for forgiveness. It is not based on us. We forgive because we are forgiven - it's in our nature now.
This short video will show you the context of those scriptures in Matt 7.
[video=youtube;Ujyb683RNtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujyb683RNtM[/video]
Look at the word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of Christ being preached and no where does it say to "forgive first or you will not be forgiven" I'll give you the exact scripture references . Peter - Acts 10:43 and Paul Acts 13:38
Have you ever heard Billy Graham say " Forgive people first before you come to receive Christ's forgiveness"?..of course not..it is anti-the gospel.
It is extremely important to read all scriptures in their context - even the words of Jesus. I understand this conflicts with some of our religious beliefs passed on by mad-made traditions which nullify the grace of God.
The Cross of Christ changed from living according to law and we are now in the grace of Christ for forgiveness. It is not based on us. We forgive because we are forgiven - it's in our nature now.
This short video will show you the context of those scriptures in Matt 7.
[video=youtube;Ujyb683RNtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujyb683RNtM[/video]
Here is scripture after the Cross about forgiveness. We need to throw all these out if we need to forgive before we are forgiven.
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.
There are many good profitable things we can learn from the Lord's prayer when He taught the disciples in the time period they were in but to repeat it like it is written is actually doing the complete opposite of what Jesus said NOT to do in Matt 6:7.
The fact remains IMO that even though there are great things to learn from this prayer - it was for the time period between Christ living and Christ dying and rising from the dead.
If you notice - Jesus did not say to pray in His name in Matt. 6. When He was about to die - He changed the way the disciples prayed by saying. John 16
John 16:22-26 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;
I realize that this truth may be against our church upbringing and what we have been taught but the understanding of these truths will allow us to grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and to walk fully in the reality of the New Covenant.
The fact remains IMO that even though there are great things to learn from this prayer - it was for the time period between Christ living and Christ dying and rising from the dead.
If you notice - Jesus did not say to pray in His name in Matt. 6. When He was about to die - He changed the way the disciples prayed by saying. John 16
John 16:22-26 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;
I realize that this truth may be against our church upbringing and what we have been taught but the understanding of these truths will allow us to grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and to walk fully in the reality of the New Covenant.
Here is an excellent post from another member of CC talking about the Lord's Prayer. It should be called the disciples prayer during the transitional time before the church age came.
Quote:
My dear bro don't be mad at me for no reason. I have my reasons for saying this; and I repeat, IF ANYONE IS STILL PRAYING THE ' LORDS PRAYER" THE PRAYER THE LORD TAUGHT HIS DISCIPLE UNDER THE LAW, AS A PRAYER FOR THE CHURCH OF CHRIST TODAY? THAT PERSON IS NOT LIVING IN THE THE DISPENSATION OF THE CHURCH AGE!!!
Now i am going prove it with scriptures. Now lets take a close look at what is generally known as the "Lords prayer".
1) OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN: In the OT He was based in heaven only, but He is now both in heaven and on earth (in his church which is the body of Christ)
2) HALLOW BE THY NAME: yes His name is still being hallowed both in heaven and on earth.
3) THY KINGDOM COME: His kingdom has already come! Christ who is the fullness of the Godhead resides in the believer.
4) THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN: we cannot pray and ask that His will be done again because His will for humanity has been done on earth by the son, and the Son has now commissioned us go and announced what has been done to the ends of the earth!
5) GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD: "According as his power has given unto us ALL things that pertain unto life and godliness (2 Pet 1: 3)". all things have been given to us in Christ!!
6) AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESS PASS AGAINST US: " And be you kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake HAS forgiven you( Eph 4:32), " I write to you little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name sake(1 Jn 2:12)" you can see here that we get to forgive because we have been forgiven and not vice versa
7) AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION: "let no man says when he is tempted, i am tempted of God. God cannot be tempted with evil...(James 1:13)".
8 )BUT DELIVER US FROM ALL EVIL: "who had delivered us for the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13)"
There are many other scriptures that go to support this point that the believer in Christ; the church of Jesus Christ, can no longer pray the ''lords prayer". This is the reason why you cannot find the apostles praying this prayer anyway after the cross. because they have understood that Christ had fulfilled all things, even the "Lords prayer"
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...w-spirit-life-christ-jesus-3.html#post2797691
Quote:
My dear bro don't be mad at me for no reason. I have my reasons for saying this; and I repeat, IF ANYONE IS STILL PRAYING THE ' LORDS PRAYER" THE PRAYER THE LORD TAUGHT HIS DISCIPLE UNDER THE LAW, AS A PRAYER FOR THE CHURCH OF CHRIST TODAY? THAT PERSON IS NOT LIVING IN THE THE DISPENSATION OF THE CHURCH AGE!!!
Now i am going prove it with scriptures. Now lets take a close look at what is generally known as the "Lords prayer".
1) OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN: In the OT He was based in heaven only, but He is now both in heaven and on earth (in his church which is the body of Christ)
2) HALLOW BE THY NAME: yes His name is still being hallowed both in heaven and on earth.
3) THY KINGDOM COME: His kingdom has already come! Christ who is the fullness of the Godhead resides in the believer.
4) THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN: we cannot pray and ask that His will be done again because His will for humanity has been done on earth by the son, and the Son has now commissioned us go and announced what has been done to the ends of the earth!
5) GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD: "According as his power has given unto us ALL things that pertain unto life and godliness (2 Pet 1: 3)". all things have been given to us in Christ!!
6) AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESS PASS AGAINST US: " And be you kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake HAS forgiven you( Eph 4:32), " I write to you little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name sake(1 Jn 2:12)" you can see here that we get to forgive because we have been forgiven and not vice versa
7) AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION: "let no man says when he is tempted, i am tempted of God. God cannot be tempted with evil...(James 1:13)".
8 )BUT DELIVER US FROM ALL EVIL: "who had delivered us for the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13)"
There are many other scriptures that go to support this point that the believer in Christ; the church of Jesus Christ, can no longer pray the ''lords prayer". This is the reason why you cannot find the apostles praying this prayer anyway after the cross. because they have understood that Christ had fulfilled all things, even the "Lords prayer"
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...w-spirit-life-christ-jesus-3.html#post2797691
I too believe that the "disciples prayer" ( which would be a better term for this prayer ) was really a transitional prayer to be prayed until the bringing the kingdom of God "in" us which is after Christ arose from the dead and His ascension.
Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "Near or at hand" at the start of His ministry because He Himself was there with them.
Then He says later that the kingdom of God shall be "in" you. This prayer would be used to bring this about on the earth and Christ did do this very thing for us in solidifying the New Covenant.
As, I said - there will be a lot of emotional responses to this teaching as it goes against what we have been taught in our religious upbringing. Let every person be persuaded in their heart on this matter.
Personally knowing the truths about this prayer has helped me immensely in my walk with the Lord and as I say - there are many principles to learn from this prayer that are still applicable to us now in 2017.
Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "Near or at hand" at the start of His ministry because He Himself was there with them.
Then He says later that the kingdom of God shall be "in" you. This prayer would be used to bring this about on the earth and Christ did do this very thing for us in solidifying the New Covenant.
As, I said - there will be a lot of emotional responses to this teaching as it goes against what we have been taught in our religious upbringing. Let every person be persuaded in their heart on this matter.
Personally knowing the truths about this prayer has helped me immensely in my walk with the Lord and as I say - there are many principles to learn from this prayer that are still applicable to us now in 2017.
S
after researching it, it turns out that this 'we don't have to pray the Lord's prayer' which is now referred to as the 'disciple's prayer, is all part and parcel of the WOF/NAR mindset of many these days with more being added daily because of itching ears
you will find that this is going to creep up more and more and the disciples of these movements, because they are NOT the disciples of Jesus, will become more anti gospel while telling anyone whose attention they got because of their outrageous statements, that in fact YOU are anti-gospel and religious
don't be alarmed or upset at the suave words and ignorance of what the Bible actually says.
these folks do not apply a systematic approach to studying the Bible and refer to those who do so, as religious
that is simply a pass they have given themselves
you will find that this is going to creep up more and more and the disciples of these movements, because they are NOT the disciples of Jesus, will become more anti gospel while telling anyone whose attention they got because of their outrageous statements, that in fact YOU are anti-gospel and religious
don't be alarmed or upset at the suave words and ignorance of what the Bible actually says.
these folks do not apply a systematic approach to studying the Bible and refer to those who do so, as religious
that is simply a pass they have given themselves
S
some will tell you that we do not pray the prayer Jesus taught His disciples, because Jesus did not end it with 'in Jesus name' which is so absurd I would have to loose about 30 IQ points to even begin to understand that nonsense
there is a move towards leaving out what Christ taught because it was 'old covenant' and apparently God saying His words will never pass away or Jesus saying Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away Matt. 24:35, are passed over, like Jewish teachers refusing to include Isaiah 53 to this very day because it underscores their error, so these people twist what is written to agree with their errors
this is not going away and is all a part of the great 'falling away' which they teach is not going to happen. they teach there will be a great 'awakening' or revival, but that is not what the Lord says. their prophets lie to them all day long and tell them what they want to hear but God has not put those words in their mouths
there is nothing new under the sun. what we are seeing, is a repeat of the OT patterns of lying prophets and those who follow them. their words are 'peace peace' where there is no peace and they will eat the fruit of their lips
I am not a prophet, but God does not lie or change and I agree with Solomon when he says there is nothing new under the sun
the Bible says he was the most intelligent person who ever lived. listen to him. even in his sins, he still knew the truth
wisdom cries out from the streets. is anyone listening? many are trampling her underfoot
S
I hear you!
Jesus never said this is the prayer to pray if you want God to hear you. The disciples apparently asked how they should pray and Jesus responded
Jesus also said our prayers should not be vain repetition, so it is unclear why anyone would try to make the argument that we should pray that prayer as some kind of formula because it is obvious that is not the case
equally so and especially obvious, is the silly case being made that Jesus had one thing to say to the disciples and another to us in this age. I agree that some go overboard and fancy themselves apostles and prophets of the new age but I dealt with that in post 49, or at least a very brief synopsis
people seem to think they have some kind of game going on with the word, wherein if they say 'checkmate', it indicates they won
nobody is winning. looking around, we can easily see the state of apostasy, the false and dangerous teaching and the network of superstar false prophets and self apointed apostles
the Bible is plain that it is GOD who decides to whom He will give spiritual gifts, and that by His Spirit
yet these ninnies create schools to create the gifts in those God has not chosen (mind you, He may have chosen but the mindset of these people are such that they mistakenly believe they can create an anointing. if in fact they do create one, it is false because ONLY God gives out the real thing)
it is error multiplied on error and they love it and would not have it any other way
Jesus never said this is the prayer to pray if you want God to hear you. The disciples apparently asked how they should pray and Jesus responded
Jesus also said our prayers should not be vain repetition, so it is unclear why anyone would try to make the argument that we should pray that prayer as some kind of formula because it is obvious that is not the case
equally so and especially obvious, is the silly case being made that Jesus had one thing to say to the disciples and another to us in this age. I agree that some go overboard and fancy themselves apostles and prophets of the new age but I dealt with that in post 49, or at least a very brief synopsis
people seem to think they have some kind of game going on with the word, wherein if they say 'checkmate', it indicates they won
nobody is winning. looking around, we can easily see the state of apostasy, the false and dangerous teaching and the network of superstar false prophets and self apointed apostles
the Bible is plain that it is GOD who decides to whom He will give spiritual gifts, and that by His Spirit
yet these ninnies create schools to create the gifts in those God has not chosen (mind you, He may have chosen but the mindset of these people are such that they mistakenly believe they can create an anointing. if in fact they do create one, it is false because ONLY God gives out the real thing)
it is error multiplied on error and they love it and would not have it any other way
Or it could mean that some people are looking at scripture through the lens of the finished work of Christ and anything that 'conlicts" with our religious church teachings - we have to attack it with a derogatory name in order to discount what is being said.
That is a common tactic of the religious mind that has the potential to occur in all of us.
That is a common tactic of the religious mind that has the potential to occur in all of us.
Do we now use Jesus' words that He used to the rich ruler when he asked Jesus - "What must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Jesus said "keep the commandments".
Jesus gave him the law to expose his need of a Savior and to expose tha the had actually broken the 1st commandment.
Do we say the same thing now to those that ask us ."What must I do to be saved" Do we say - keep the 10 commandments? Of course not.
Here is what we say in the New Covenant "after" the cross.
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
So, if we don't rightly divide all scripture including the words of Jesus - then we will have a mess on our hands.
Jesus said "keep the commandments".
Jesus gave him the law to expose his need of a Savior and to expose tha the had actually broken the 1st commandment.
Do we say the same thing now to those that ask us ."What must I do to be saved" Do we say - keep the 10 commandments? Of course not.
Here is what we say in the New Covenant "after" the cross.
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
So, if we don't rightly divide all scripture including the words of Jesus - then we will have a mess on our hands.
S
oh there you are
your teachers are causing you confusion
the so called Lord's prayer was never meant as THE prayer
eat the entire pie. with the crust. not just the part you find sweet
according to you, I don't have a religious mind. I am spirit filled and walk not after the flesh, remember?
but let's not play word games because I seriously do not like them
Jesus never said this is the prayer to pray, so making a case that he did, is nonsense
the NT teaches us how to pray and Jesus simply supplied an example
the big whoha is in the minds of those who do not comprehend that
we have liberty in Christ, do we not?
if we do, then why would we suspect we are cornered into praying a certain way?
in the OT we read, POUR OUT YOUR HEARTS TO GOD
now do we think Jesus forgot that when he gave the prayer example?
this is what I mean when I say take the entire Bible and not parts
when people take parts, they misconstrue
ALL is given for instruction and we weigh the words by the words; we do not weigh according to our own understanding
it's a big table and room for all, but if some start throwing the food on the floor and objecting to it, they may find themselves either waiting for a seat or perhaps put out altogether
why is that? it is because we are free and we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and it is the grace of God that mercifully instructs us to do so
so, if we take that and run with it, we may come to the conclusion that we should be afraid of God. however, if we add to that that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, we see more. if we add to that that those who desire wisdom should ask for it we see more. and if we add to that that God loves us, we begin to see His instruction is for our good not our harm
you see, it is precept upon precept
the whole kit
and it is wonderful and God's word does not return to Him void
I would say that I most likely have far greater freedom in Christ in not limiting His word and in understanding I need to feast at the table, then those who say that this or that is no longer for us
your teachers are causing you confusion
the so called Lord's prayer was never meant as THE prayer
eat the entire pie. with the crust. not just the part you find sweet
according to you, I don't have a religious mind. I am spirit filled and walk not after the flesh, remember?
but let's not play word games because I seriously do not like them
Jesus never said this is the prayer to pray, so making a case that he did, is nonsense
the NT teaches us how to pray and Jesus simply supplied an example
the big whoha is in the minds of those who do not comprehend that
we have liberty in Christ, do we not?
if we do, then why would we suspect we are cornered into praying a certain way?
in the OT we read, POUR OUT YOUR HEARTS TO GOD
now do we think Jesus forgot that when he gave the prayer example?
this is what I mean when I say take the entire Bible and not parts
when people take parts, they misconstrue
ALL is given for instruction and we weigh the words by the words; we do not weigh according to our own understanding
it's a big table and room for all, but if some start throwing the food on the floor and objecting to it, they may find themselves either waiting for a seat or perhaps put out altogether
why is that? it is because we are free and we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and it is the grace of God that mercifully instructs us to do so
so, if we take that and run with it, we may come to the conclusion that we should be afraid of God. however, if we add to that that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, we see more. if we add to that that those who desire wisdom should ask for it we see more. and if we add to that that God loves us, we begin to see His instruction is for our good not our harm
you see, it is precept upon precept
the whole kit
and it is wonderful and God's word does not return to Him void
I would say that I most likely have far greater freedom in Christ in not limiting His word and in understanding I need to feast at the table, then those who say that this or that is no longer for us
S
well I think I said all anyone who actually gives a whoop about what I really think already
but
I keep the commandments all day long
I fulfill them all day long
then again I break them all day long
it's our hearts then, right?
it has always been our hearts
that is the kingdom of God and He needs to rule there
if you want to inherit the kingdom of God you must become like a little child
a little child who sits on his father's lap and believes what he is told