Benefits of Speaking, Praying, and Singing in Tongues

CS1 · Jun 28, 2017

Thomas did see Jesus did he not ? Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God" did he not? Thomas was saved before Acts 2 account of Pentecost .

Now wolfwint we have been having a very good discussion , why are you now saying I said things I never did ?

"According your statement only Pentecostals and Charismatics are empowered with the Holy Spirit. All other Christians not. "
I never said that .

No where have I said that . Nor did i claim to be the only person (s) to have signs and wonders. Don't misrepresent me please.
And again your statement

"But the different to the Pentecostal ore even charismatic movements is, that these movements claim that the Holy Spirit is the Initiator."

I just told you of one instance were that is not the case for Pentecostals. i.e. Rev Seymour .

And if you are suggesting I am part of a cult because I see that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (all of them )recorded in 1 cor Chapter 12, 13, and 14 are for today then we have no more to talk about .

Again The Context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for all who are saved . I said that many many times because I believe it to be true as the bible speaks on this subject.

I do not know what cult you are speaking of thus the many which proved they are empowered.

I am saved , washed in the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have the Holy Spirit in me as John chapter 14 and 16 speaks about . The Holy Spirit has gifted me as HE has done men and women who are saved.

you also changed my statement too which is sad . I never said "Initiator " . I said tongues was "the initial evidence" that one had been empowered by the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts it was tongues or prophesying .

That is the understanding from what we see as a normative in the book of Acts 4:31, 10:44-46, 11:15, 13:2, 19:16

this is the context of Initial evidence not "Initiators". Pentecostals do not control the Holy Spirit. I think you really went out of your way to misrepresent my statements . You do not have to agree with me but I am not part of a cult.

And I do not appreciate that assertion directed to me.

Thank you God bless were done .

Enow · Jun 28, 2017

wolfwint said:

That was not when the disciples were saved, because Jesus was present with them. Jesus said in John 14th chapter that when He leaves them to prepare a place for them in the Father's mansion, that the promise of the forever abiding Holy Ghost will be sent from the Father at their salvation for that will be when they are made citizens of Heaven by Him in Heaven.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....[SUP]10 [/SUP]Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?.....[SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me,..........16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[SUP] 17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you......[SUP]25 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So the disciples were not saved when Jesus gave them the temporary dwelling of the Holy Ghost. They were saved officially at Pentecost so that their testimony will be the same as other believers that they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; not by sight.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good report............[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3:[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.......[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 20:[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Tongues were never to serve as a sign to believers, and yet that is what these tongue speakers are doing when speaking of the second blessing or a receiving of the Holy Spirit separate from salvation by a sign of tongues. That also proves it is not of Him.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.[SUP] 21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I believe in God's gift of tongues that speaks in other men's lips to speak unto the people.

I do not believe God's gift of tongues is gained as a sign by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation. No other spiritual gift is hyped to be sought after in seeking this extra supernatural phenomenon which is always in confusion, people falling backward, having loss of self control which is contrary to one filled with the Spirit when the fruit temperance which is self control should be keeping one from falling like that; but if they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation after a sign of tongues and other signs of confusion as well, then God will permit that strong delusion to occur.

Only God can peradventure to recover them from this snare of the devil and to help them shun vain and profane babbling because tongues without interpretation is unfruitful to the tongue speaker unless interpreted, and thus this whole thread is overlooking scripture for how tongues can only be beneficial and that is when it is interpreted or understood by the foreigner.

Indeed, most tongue speakers today will testify to the experience of what they believe was the Holy Spirit coming over them later on in life bringing that tongue, but in no way can they prove to you how that tongue is beneficial to them when they do not know what that tongue is doing unless interpreted.

CS1 · Jun 28, 2017

Enow said:

That was not when the disciples were saved, because Jesus was present with them. Jesus said in John 14th chapter that when He leaves them to prepare a place for them in the Father's mansion, that the promise of the forever abiding Holy Ghost will be sent from the Father at their salvation for that will be when they are made citizens of Heaven by Him in Heaven.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....[SUP]10 [/SUP]Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?.....[SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me,..........16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[SUP] 17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you......[SUP]25 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So the disciples were not saved when Jesus gave them the temporary dwelling of the Holy Ghost. They were saved officially at Pentecost so that their testimony will be the same as other believers that they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; not by sight.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good report............[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3:[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.......[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 20:[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Tongues were never to serve as a sign to believers, and yet that is what these tongue speakers are doing when speaking of the second blessing or a receiving of the Holy Spirit separate from salvation by a sign of tongues. That also proves it is not of Him.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.[SUP] 21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I believe in God's gift of tongues that speaks in other men's lips to speak unto the people.

I do not believe God's gift of tongues is gained as a sign by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation. No other spiritual gift is hyped to be sought after in seeking this extra supernatural phenomenon which is always in confusion, people falling backward, having loss of self control which is contrary to one filled with the Spirit when the fruit temperance which is self control should be keeping one from falling like that; but if they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation after a sign of tongues and other signs of confusion as well, then God will permit that strong delusion to occur.

Only God can peradventure to recover them from this snare of the devil and to help them shun vain and profane babbling because tongues without interpretation is unfruitful to the tongue speaker unless interpreted, and thus this whole thread is overlooking scripture for how tongues can only be beneficial and that is when it is interpreted or understood by the foreigner.

Indeed, most tongue speakers today will testify to the experience of what they believe was the Holy Spirit coming over them later on in life bringing that tongue, but in no way can they prove to you how that tongue is beneficial to them when they do not know what that tongue is doing unless interpreted.

Jesus had already rose from the Dead He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Ghost John 20:22

John 14 Jesus had not yet been Crucified or rose from the Dead.
the other points you are making jump around so much and take out of Context and opinionated not Biblical .

Gabriel2020 · Jun 28, 2017

The disciples received the Holy Ghost just before Jesus ascended into Heaven , they were only given power to do works while he was with them.All I can say is that you better wake up learn the truth that is set right before your eyes. tongues edify the one who is speaking it if their is no interpreter. what you are doing here is denying the works of the Holy Spirit.

CS1 · Jun 28, 2017

Gabriel2020 said:

I am not sure who you are speaking to but I think it is fair to tell you the Holy Spirit work on a person prior to the death and burial and resurrection Of the Lord Jesus Christ would be the same as recorded in the Old testament

The Spirit of the Lord came upon prophets, priest, kings and rulers .

The context in the New Testament is found in John chapter 14 & 16 Not only upon but in you. and remain with you .
Jesus after HIS resurrection appeared to the disciples in John 20:22 and HE Jesus breathed on them and said " Receive the Holy Ghost " . Then they were told to go and wait until they receive power from on high. which happen 10 days after Jesus ascended. Acts 1:8 and Acts 2

Enow · Jun 28, 2017

CS1 said:

Now do see how you are making your statement, okay? Do not be offended when I correct you in return.

I have shown the verses that signify when the promise of the forever abiding Holy Spirit will be sent and the wording cannot be overlooked that the promise will be sent when Jesus was no longer with them physically but had gone to the Father above; thus referring to His ascension; not His crucifixion.

The poster, wolfwint, has read it and likes it.

The thing you need to acknowledged is that Jesus had given another temporary infilling of the Holy Ghost to the 12 disciples, including Judas Iscariot in Matthew 10th chapter, whom was not a believer that would later betray Him.

Matthew 10:1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;[SUP] 3 [/SUP]Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel............[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,[SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat........[SUP]18 [/SUP]And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.[SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.[SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

So Judas Iscariot had this power and temporary infilling of the Holy Spirit while Jesus was with them.

Just as the giving of the Holy Spirit by Jesus to His disciples in John 20:21-22 was only temporary because He was still present with them when this had happened.

He said the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation will be sent from the Father in His name when He was no longer there physically present with them.

John 14:[SUP]25 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Repeating this promise earlier in the chapter:

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the disciples were told to wait until they had received power from on high because they only had a temporary infilling and they were not ready to go out and preach the Good News yet because they were not officially saved until Pentecost.

Enow · Jun 28, 2017

Gabriel2020 said:

I have shown the verses that signify when the promise of the forever abiding Holy Spirit will be sent and the wording cannot be overlooked that the promise will be sent when Jesus was no longer with them physically but had gone to the Father above; thus referring to His ascension; not His crucifixion.

The poster, wolfwint, has read it and likes it.

The thing you need to acknowledged is that Jesus had given another temporary infilling of the Holy Ghost to the 12 disciples, including Judas Iscariot in Matthew 10th chapter, whom was not a believer that would later betray Him.

Matthew 10:1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;[SUP] 3 [/SUP]Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel............[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,[SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat........[SUP]18 [/SUP]And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.[SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.[SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

So Judas Iscariot had this power and temporary infilling of the Holy Spirit while Jesus was with them.

Just as the giving of the Holy Spirit by Jesus to His disciples in John 20:21-22 was only temporary because He was still present with them when this had happened.

He said the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation will be sent from the Father in His name when He was no longer there physically present with them.

John 14:[SUP]25 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Repeating this promise earlier in the chapter:

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the disciples were told to wait until they had received power from on high because they only had a temporary infilling and they were not ready to go out and preach the Good News yet because they were not officially saved until Pentecost.

Paul opposes you by testifying that he does not know what is being said by the tongue manifested by the Holy Spirit which is why he prayed that someone will interpret it so that the tongue will be fruitful to himself in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter.

Tongue speakers are taking verse 2 out of context when Paul was trying to explain why believers when they seek a spiritual gift, they should seek the gift of prophesy and began explaining why by comparing the gift of tongue against the gift of prophesy, and he was not meaning to say in verse 2 that tongues is a stand alone gift when no man understands him, not even himself, but God understands it which is why prophesy is better because that tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue spoken of in that whole chapter as needing interpretation because God's gift of tongues is for speaking unto the people.

There is no benefit to speaking in tongues to the tongue speaker until it is interpreted by another for that tongue speaker for that tongue to be fruitful to him. That is why the gift of prophesy is better because tongues requires interpretation. That is the point when comparing tongues against prophesy.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?..............
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul said it. No benefit to speaking in tongues towards himself unless it is interpreted.

Paul was never trying to say how great tongues was by itself, but why prophesy was better than tongues. The way you guys are going in this thread in saying tongues can come without interpretation and that there are benefits to this tongue, you make it sound as if Paul did not know what he was talking about because clearly by this thread, tongues by itself is so much better where you do not need any one else nor the church because of all those benefits by speaking in tongues without interpretation.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now are they many members, yet but one body.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
Now does that sound about right or not? If not, then the title of the thread opposes you if you are saying that tongues isn't that great where tongue speakers do not need a church to go to..

wolfwint · Jun 29, 2017

CS1 said:

Wolfwint: CS1, I suppose I did not wrote misunderstandable for you, so I will clearify it.

1. Thomas was not among the Apostles when Jesus breath them on and sayed receive Holy Spirit. Nobody can to 100% say that this was the moment when they are saved. Because the text dont say it! It is only an assumption. later it is nowhere mentioned that Jesus breath on Thomas and told himthe them as he did with the apostles in John 20,22.
So the theologie that the apotles were saved in John 20,22 and empowered in acts 2 and in this way it is for us today also, as you wrote is an assumption, because in the praxis I dont find this further taugth in the NT and also not in churchhiostory and also not were I live. I dont know pentecostal believers, (accept from CC) and all christians I met in 30 years are not made this expierience with an empowerment like the Pentecostal theologie teaches from Seymoure on.

CS1: "According your statement only Pentecostals and Charismatics are empowered with the Holy Spirit. All other Christians not. "
I never said that ."

Wolfwint: 2. Your are right: You never said this!! It is simply the consequence of the pentecostal and charismatic teaching
about the empowerment and getting the signgifts! Because I dont know any christian in my 30 years as christian who has this sign gifts. Among them are Bibleschool teachers, Evangelists, Missionaries which are doing a blessed ministry.

CS1: "But the different to the Pentecostal ore even charismatic movements is, that these movements claim that the Holy Spirit is the Initiator."
I just told you of one instance were that is not the case for Pentecostals. i.e. Rev Seymour .
And if you are suggesting I am part of a cult because I see that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (all of them )recorded in 1 cor Chapter 12, 13, and 14 are for today then we have no more to talk about .
Again The Context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for all who are saved . I said that many many times because I believe it to be true as the bible speaks on this subject."

Wolfwint: 3. Maby this was expressed missunaderstandable from my side. I meant f.e.
the Mennonites study the scripture and came to the conclusion that they should not make a military service, that they should not swear before court. But this is a man made/ man as initiator made theologie and and other christians may not agree with it.

The pentecostal/charismatic movement claim that the Holy Spirit is the Initiator of the second baptism and the giving of the gift. Otherwise it is man made, but is aman able to give spirituell gifts? No ! So the Initiator must be the Holy Spirit ore another Spirit who has the power to do it.

We find in other movements, which we would count as cults that they also claim to have spirituell gifts: like the Montanists in 2nd century, ore the Mormons, ore the New Apostolic Catholic Church. Also we find that spirituell gifts are practiced in other religions: like Islam ore Hinduism ore Paganism. And we would not say that these gifts coming from God!

Yes, it may be hard to hear for you and all who are growing up in pentecostalteachings and also make expieriences with the gifts.

But i have no other choice as to doubt that these gifts are real coming from God. Special this speaking in tongues!

Why? Because this teaching I dont find in the bible in this way like pentecoatals ore charismatics teach this subjekt.
Because this expierince is only real in christian Life of Pentecostals and Charismatics, but not in all the other christians.
I would expect that the Holy Spirit makes no different in the believers, And I dont find in the bible that he gives the
spirituell gifts in only a part of the body of Christ.

I clain´m to have the gift of discerning the Spirits, but that I got when I became a christian. And not in an extra event!

Finaly our father in heaven has to judge us for what we do and what we teach. He is the One who looks in our heart.
I belive you are serious and want to follow Jesus!

But you are right we should better stop this discussion, because we dont will come to an solution.
We cant convince one each other. Our Lord has to show us waht is rigth and wrong!

Our Lord may bless you

brighthouse98 · Jun 29, 2017

I do not myself look at tongues as the gift,but rather the effect of the true gift which to me brothers and sisters is the very baptism of love.( John 13:34-35) Please look at (1 Cor 12:4-11)( Verse 6!!) While I am most thankful for the effect,I am even much more thankful that people see Jesus in me!!

This baptism of love causes our tongues to be salted.( Col 4:6) It speaks life rather then death,it restores rather then condemns. The purpose is that this gift from the Lord is not just for self,but rather for the body of Christ as a whole. I understand many do not believe in the need of this gift,that is ok,those of us who do are as thankful as you are, and we are no better as a person because of it,but rather an extending part of the branch so others if they wish to may hold on to.

The point is not whether or not this gift is manifested in one's life,but rather that those who believe in this gift manifest God's true Kindness, and tolerance, and patience even as our own brothers and sisters do the very same for us!( Rom 2:4) These verses which you are about to see bring into character the baptism of love for us all!!( 2 Peter 3:-11!!!) Blessing all!!

CS1 · Jun 29, 2017

Enow said:

I am never offend by a statement made if agree or not . The suggestion i'm a devil or not saved is another thing.

That being said I am not sure what you mean in the first part of your response .

I have shown the verses that signify when the promise of the forever abiding Holy Spirit will be sent and the wording cannot be overlooked that the promise will be sent when Jesus was no longer with them physically but had gone to the Father above; thus referring to His ascension; not His crucifixion.The Holy Spirit was with them at the time Jesus said this or hoe could Peter make his confession about Who Jesus was when Jesus asked " Who do men say that I am"? matt 16:15 Peter responded matt 16:16 " And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jeus said in verse 17 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] would it be wrong to say the Holy Spirit was the one who helped Peter with the statement? because that is what Jesus said happened.

[/FONT]"The thing you need to acknowledged is that Jesus had given another temporary infilling of the Holy Ghost to the 12 disciples, including Judas Iscariot in Matthew 10th chapter, whom was not a believer that would later betray Him."

it is very interesting you would think that because that would mean two fillings even if you use the word "temporary"
They were sent with author by Jesus Himself which is what was stated in matt 10.
The application of the Holy Spirit and the context would be the same at it was in the Old testament. So Judas could have the Holy Spirit come on him because the Devil had not yet entered him which happened later as it says in John 13:27 and Luke 22:3.
the instruction Jesus gave to the Disciples in John 20 was something else or why did not The Lord say wait until you receive what you had when I first sent you out.

No the context does not suggest what you are saying. This so-called "temporary" is not what Jesus talked about in John 1:33 chp 14 and chp 16 nor in Acts chapter 1 .

The context of judas is the same as it was with Saul the king who also prophesied. The Holy Spirit is always present but not always near this is why the term The Spirit of the Lord departed Saul or Sampson.

and the scriptures note the devil entered into Judas .

The of Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel 2:28 and the context of John 14 and 16 where not Holy would not only come upon you but would be IN you. That did not happen in the Old Testament no where do you read the Spirit of Lord the came into it was always upon

This is different from what was done before . Why ? because women too were included which was descriptive in the Old Testament but not a normative.

I think you cannot say the word temporary in context to the moving of the Holy Spirit shown in the Old testament

Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit because the bible says that in John and other verses in the Gospels.

the context of what Jesus told them to do before HE was crucified and what HE told them to do before HIs taking up in Acts chapter one do not support your suggestion of a temporary filling .

CS1 · Jun 29, 2017

wolfwint said:

1. let look at the context of John 20 shall we . Jesus rose from the dead appeared to all but Thomas
I will start at verse 21

:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as myFather hath sent me, even so send I you.
:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Note it was very important for The Book of John to capture Thomas not present.

:25 [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] Note the other disciples said to Thomas We have seen the LORD" from this point none of the Disciples call HIM Jesus without Lord something had happen to them.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] Note Thomas " [/FONT]I will not believe."

: 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] Note Jesus confronts Thomas with his own words which Thomas responses with a very very significant statement :

:28 [/FONT]And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."

1cor 12:3 says " Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] [/FONT]no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]I believe the scriptures here show Thomas was saved when he confessed this and I will also add

This statement BY Thomas is quoted by many in defense of the God and and the Deity of Christ. Which I will also add The main Theme of the gospel of John is the " Deity of Christ."

2. your 30 years of experience is not authoritative nor is my 30 + years however, the historical context and truth is and more importantly the Word of God.
I will try to give you some information about rev Seymour which you apparently do not know. And how those who say things that were later corrected but did not throw the baby out with bath water.
1. he was black man with one eye lost due to small pox
2. he was in bible school in Cincinnati
3. during very racial time.
4. the school he attended he sat outside the classroom with the door open law black man could not sit in class with whites.
5. Seymour did not receive the baptism in the Holt Spirit at Azusa st.
6. nor was this the first event where the gifts of the Spirit were documented

John and Charles Wesley 17 00's over 100 years before Seymour's experience during what was known as the holiness movement
document gifts of the Spirit including tongues
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are well documented and was not even an issue until it became a Movement during a Time of great racial oppression Which Rev Seymour preached against too.

[/FONT]Wolfwint: 3. Maby this was expressed missunaderstandable from my side. I meant f.e.
the Mennonites study the scripture and came to the conclusion that they should not make a military service, that they should not swear before court. But this is a man made/ man as initiator made theologie and and other christians may not agree with it.

That is a big stretch from what 1 cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 say about the gifts of the Spirit and denomination doctrine.
The doctrine aka rules set by the local church could have been appropriate at the time if the local courts were hostel to the word of God like many local courts are today here in California and other places HOWEVER, that has nothing to do with the initial evidence in context to tongues.

no Pentecostals do not claim the Holy Spirit is the Initiator of the second baptism and the giving of the gift.
1 cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 and acts 2 is .

We find in other movements, which we would count as cults that they also claim to have spirituell gifts: like the Montanists in 2nd century, ore the Mormons, ore the New Apostolic Catholic Church. Also we find that spirituell gifts are practiced in other religions: like Islam ore Hinduism ore Paganism. And we would not say that these gifts coming from God!

Was the holiness movement by John and Charles Wesley a cult ? was Martin Luther movement Protestant Reformation in the 16th century a cult ? As was John Calvin?
were any of them 100% correct and authoritative ?
The gifts of the Holy Spirit and that inculding tongues are seen to happen from Acts 2 through the centuries it was not an issue until it became a movement as All Movements God has done.

1906 is not the start of the gifts of the Holy Spirit or tongues for that matter.

what has happen since? the founders of denominations all of them today are not what they were at the time of the movement
Lutheran, Methodist, others opening support gay marriage The founders never would have accepted that.
main Line Baptist open to other belief systems outside of Christ only never would have been adhered to at it's founding.
But all have had great movements of God through the centuries as did those who call themselves Pentecostal

aog = founded on world missions came out of Mission alliance founder A.B Simpson Presbyterian clergyman m
four sq gospel=founded on street ministries and world missions
many of the first Christian churches were aog and four sq .

"Yes, it may be hard to hear for you and all who are growing up in pentecostalteachings and also make expieriences with the gifts.But i have no other choice as to doubt that these gifts are real coming from God. Special this speaking in tongues!"

Not hard for me at all

the so called Pentecostal teaching comes right from the Word of God. You can doubt if the gifts of The Holy Spirit are from God if you like. But the word of God church history far earlier than 1906 say it is

The book of Acts
1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14

The early Church

denominations recorded and documented:

catholic church
reformers
Lutherans
Methodist
baptist

Martin Luther had what was known as a "personal Pentecost"

Calvin experienced what he called a “sudden conversion” because God spoke to him through the Scriptures.

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Calvin’s reformation experiences were a product of his association with the Huguenots who repeatedly manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their meetings. much of the Holy Spirit gifts were attacked by the catholic church because the power of the reformers who were moving the church back to the Word of God . The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are well documented during this time.

[/FONT][h=3]HUGUENOTS[/h]Bernard Bresson, in his extensive historical study of Medieval Pentecost, cites sources indicating Calvin’s reformation experiences were a product of his association with the Huguenots who repeatedly manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their meetings.

When Calvin was at last well-established in Geneva, he secretly supported in every way those persecuted Protestant Huguenots in France.Huguenots became an important link in the chain of events that awakened thewholeProtestant movement to larger vistas of New Testament doctrine. Once Protestantism was introduced into France, it grew by leaps and bounds, to the great alarm of both Rome and the Catholic royal families. By 1559, the Huguenots were strong enough to declare their first Protestant Council (Synod) in spite of the objections from the Catholic authorities.
The Huguenots were willing to coexist with the Catholics. Through the years several compromises had been worked out. But neither the Pope nor the Catholic clerics could endure for very long the prickly presence of, or the aggressive evangelizing by, the Huguenots. Hundreds of nominally Catholic adherents were turning Protestant.

Thus, although the Catholic leadership initially resorted to harassment, it soon evolved into martyring undesirable Protestants. This in turn exploded into outright massacring of the hated Huguenots. The first Huguenot was burned at the stake in 1523. And amazingly, the Huguenots’ religious freedom was not fully restored until after the French revolution in 1789, after 266 years of persecution with only occasional intermissions.15 Brave believers, indeed.

One example of these deceptive intermissions occurred on St. Bartholomew’s Day, 1572. As the day approached, circumstances between the Protestants and the Catholics seemed relatively peaceful. Many Huguenot nobles had gathered in Paris for the festive occasion. In fact, an important wedding was planned for a leading Huguenot nobleman, Henry of Navarre, and Marguerite of Valois, Charles IX’s sister.16 But Catherine de Medici, the mother of the youthful king, had been in connivance with other Catholic leaders to take advantage of the unsuspecting Huguenots gathering in Paris for the occasion.

The Catholics initiated a nighttime attack that ultimately massacred 8,000 of the visitors to the capital. Admiral Coligny, a reputable leader of the Huguenots and a respected politician, was among those assassinated by the Catholic deception.

During the days that followed this surprise attack, Catholics systematically exterminated thousands more Huguenots throughout the provinces of France. Catholics declared open season everywhere on the Protestant Huguenots. It has been conservatively estimated that over 70,000 were unconscionably martyred. And ironically, the Pope, now convinced that all the Catholics who were involved had at last accomplished the will of God, “sent congratulations to Catherine and both thought they were done with the Huguenots.”17

Many Huguenots, however, lived on, perhaps to die yet another day — but alive, nonetheless, and still committed to their strong faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. In spite of the supposed demise of the Huguenots, there were survivors of that terrible massacre. These survivors fled to the Alpine region of the Cevennes mountains, where the troubled remnant cried out to God for grace to endure. A loving Heavenly Father answered by pouring out His Spirit, thereby comforting those harassed believers.

The point is the history of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are there .
The St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre was the origin of the now famous Cevennes prophets, to which John Wesley later referred. God strengthened these survivors with Pentecostal experiences by the Holy Spirit, the heavenly “Comforter” Jesus had promised His believers. In his text, The Life and Letters of St. Paul, author David Smith observes that during this time of severe persecution in 1685, as the Huguenots earnestly sought the Lord for consolation “the spiritual gifts of the Apostolic Church reappeared — miracles of healing, prophecy, and talking in tongues.”18 By 1689, Pentecostal experiences were quite common among the Huguenots of the Cevennes.

The Quakers
The Wesley's
Edward Irving
Finney
Dwight L. Moody

[h=3]CONCLUSION[/h]
In addition to the examples of Pentecostal experiences listed above, the dedicated researcher will discover that there are many other textbooks describing similar visitations of the Spirit in the 19th century.

We cannot deny that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit have at times diminished alarmingly. But without question we cannot deny that there are many verifiable incidents in church history that tell of the Holy Spirit’s gifts being poured out,even in the darkest hours of church history.

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The Word of God , history documentation. the men that God raised up and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit poured out on these men even if their theological flaws The Holy Spirit was able to bring the Word of God back to the church in what is known as the reformation and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit were used then as it was in the book of Acts. and Continues to be used today. [/FONT]

Enow · Jun 29, 2017

CS1 said:

You cannot take suggestion or implications as saying that you are of the devil or not saved. I would believe the violation occurs when they actually say that you are. Right? If a believer exposes something that WHAT you are involved in as not of the Lord but of the devil, that is not judging you, but WHAT you are involved in. Do not apply guilt by association when posters are allowed to address an issue but not to condemn the poster. The ole hate the sin, but love the sinner also applies to hate the heresies, but love the brethren.

If a believer came in here saying that he heard "a voice from God" to go and kill himself, would you not tell him that what he heard was of the devil or not?

So if I say to a tongue speaker that has gained this tongue that never comes with interpretation by receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation, then I am going to say that is not of Him because scripture exposes it as such; 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & 1 Corinthians 14:20-22. Especially when they hype other believers to seek this second blessing by a sign of tongues when tongues are never supposed to serve as a sign TOWARDS believers for anything.

God knows, brother.

Proverbs 19:[SUP]11 [/SUP]The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression.

Jesus said it was the Father in Heaven that revealed that truth about Jesus Christ to Peter and yes, He did so through the Holy Ghost, but in no way does scripture gives that credit nor glory to the Holy Ghost for that revelation as Jesus did give that to the Father.

Also, John 16:13-15 dictates that all things by the Holy Ghost, the credit and glory now goes to the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ for all power has been given unto the Son as stated by Jesus in Matthew 28:18.

Remember how you gave credit to the Holy Spirit for Peter's revelation of Jesus as the Christ? ( Which you were wrong to do that when that credit belongs to the Father ) And yet soon after that, Jesus rebuked Satan out of Peter.

So understand that the infilling was temporary because they are not new creature yet because Christ had not been glorified yet by His ascension to Heaven.

John 7:[SUP]37 [/SUP]In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.[SUP]39 [/SUP](But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Remember this promise for all those that come to & believe in Him in relations to the above reference.

John 6:[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

That means no more filling is required after you have been saved.

Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

This is why it was temporary because they were not saved yet until Jesus led the way into Heaven, being the Firstfruit, to make citizens of Heaven of all those He saves on earth.

With the Holy Spirit as always filled since salvation, testifying that we have been bought at a price by Whom our bodies are the temples of the holy Spirit, we can testify that we are saved all the time.

1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?[SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

He did at His ascension. He told them to wait in Jerusalem, therefore He was referring to the promise from the Father that would accompany their salvation which came at Pentecost. Otherwise, they did not receive the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ, but by sight; thus alienating them from the rest of the believers and sows doubts as to how one is saved because all believers after them did not see Him to give them that promise & yet...

John 20:[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And Peter, because they were not saved. Peter & the rest of His disciples were saved at Pentecost.

From the first verse of chapter 14 in John, Jesus spoke of leaving and that was when this promise of the forever abiding Holy Ghost sent from the Father would come.

The women were mentioned earlier as being in the upper room, but not when Pentecost had come. Even if the women were elsewhere, they had received the Holy Ghost at their salvation, and if they were in the upper room, they would not speak in tongues because it is a commandment from the Lord for them not to speak as the word of God must first come by men.

I can because they have not been made new creature in Christ as able to be always filled with the Holy Spirit which is why new wine bottles has to be done to be able to hold the new wine as a testimony that they are saved.

Psalm 51:[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

The O.T. saints knew this can happen when a saint sins.

But it can never happen now in the N.T. when a saint sins.

Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

They did not go anywhere when Jesus had given them the Holy Ghost personally. That was just Him giving them peace. Jesus said to wait until they had received power from on high and so that runs counter to your applying what Jesus has said to go preach the gospel when He was with them when that was not what He had said. He was giving them assurances. Not a command to go yet per se as is evident when He told them to wait in Jerusalem.

John 20:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:[SUP]23 [/SUP]Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

We know they did not take off, preaching the gospel. We do know that their numbers grew in the upper room before Penetcost had come as forgiveness was needed for all His discples that had no longer followed Him and the 11 that were scattered.

Acts 1:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

That is a whole lot than the 11 that were with Him when they were scattered. So that temporary infilling was necessary for them to forgive them to have that many in the upper room before Pentecost had come when they were all saved.

But in no way were they preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ that they were saved yet until Pentecost had come so that when they were saved, they could tell others the Good News in Christ that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour.

Enow · Jun 29, 2017

CS1 said:

Catholics had similar visitations by the "Spirit" as well. They even claimed that because the early church was still speaking in tongues, this proved that the Church was keeping the doctrines within.

Yet tongues were ever to serve as a sign towards believers for anything.

Just because non-Catholics experienced this visitation of the "Spirit", I can tell you that was not the Holy Spirit because He has no need for visitations when He dwells in the believers all the time as a Witness that we are the children of God and thus saved.

That is how you test the spirits; knowing that Jesus Christ is in you so that whatever spirit is coming over you later on apart from salvation, you can know that is NOT the Holy Spirit.

And more importantly, that is not how one gets the real God's gift of tongues or any spiritual gift for that matter. You go before that throne of grace and ask Jesus Christ for any spiritual gift; not by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.

The spirit of the antichrist is in the world as outside of us whereas greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world so there is no need for visitations of the Holy Spirit in the worship place. Only seducing spirits would do that so keep your eyes on the Son, and be the abiding bride of Christ by chasing no more after them, and sun vain & profane babbling to pray normally so you know what you had prayed for to give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers.

CS1 · Jun 29, 2017

Enow said:

lol you can tell me that the Holy Spirit did not help the reformation movement ?

wow the English language of visitation is no different than came upon . the spirt of anti-christ never comes to build up.
the reformers were helped by the Holy Spirit to bring the Authoritative Word of God back into the body of Christ.

Hey Satan would never be a part of that .
you test the 'spirits" by the word of God and the action or unction of the Holy Spirit to move, speak, direct , edify, comfort, correct , lead guide empower, bring into remembrance all that Jesus has said. To Love .

what i have and many others is not the spirit of anti-christ. The word of God is very clear jesus Christ is my Lord and savior and I have the Spirit of God in me and His gifts are used in the way The Holy Spirit decides . my prayer and the way I pray have shown me God is listening and human reasoning and attacks of what God word says in 1cor chapter 12,13, and 14 and Acts 2 did not come from the devil.

at no time have i ever suggested you have the spirit of anti-christ but you continue to suggest that about me in a very subtle way. were done .

Enow · Jun 29, 2017

CS1 said:

When you testify that the Holy Spirit had to visit them when the scripture says He is in them... yeah.. I can say that the reformation wasn't by those visitations.

If you give credit for the reformation to visiting spirits, claiming that was the Holy Spirit, then I challenged it.

You can have reformation without some supernatural visitation from the Holy Spirit ( as if ) because He is in them.

What? Satan cannot slip in one lie like believing that was the Holy spirit visiting them with signs and confusion? Tell me where reformation has taken place today when people are falling backwards in confusion and babbling on without interpretation. Can't name one, can you? So attributing the reformation to the visitation of the Holy Spirit is definitely an assumption on somebody's part in history.

Not according to 1 John 4:1-6 where Jesus Christ is in you and that is how you know that spirit which is coming over you is the spirit of the antichrist, even bringing tongues that comes with no interpretation as found in the world because that is how they speak their supernatural tongue of vain & profane babbling.

You AND other tongue speakers HAD the Holy Spirit in you since your salvation when you had come to and believed in Jesus Christ AND you still do BECAUSE He will never leave you since you were saved, BUT I am calling it by the grace of God and the scripture that line of discernment in 1 John 4:4 is why that spirit coming over you later on in life separate from salvation IS the spirit of the antichrist.

Indeed, if you blur the line of discernment in 1 John 4:4, you cannot tell what spirit is the spirit of the antichrist.

And I point out, you guys do not stop there with this preaching of receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with the evidence of tongues. No. You go on and preach "slain in the Spirit" and "drunk in the Spirit" and etc.

But Hey. They called on the Holy Spirit so it must be the Holy Spirit that came and brought all that confusion. So are we to fathom that Paul was lying in 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 because God is the author of confusion? That the spirits are NOT subject to the spirits of the prophet? Let me think about that. Hmmmmmmm... Nope. No way. Not even going to give an inch. This is a bad tree producing evil fruits, and even attempting to say that at one time, this helped the reformation WHEN NO ONE IS SEEING THAT IN ANY MOVEMENT OF THE SPIRIT TODAY is taking history's assumption at their word.

The Holy Spirit is in you and scripture limits how the Holy Spirit manifests these gifts which is to profit the body withal, not individual members.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;[SUP] 9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;[SUP] 10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That proves that there is only one drink of the One Spirit that we had been ALL baptized by and therefore it is not by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation is HOW any one gets a spiritual gift as they are only manifested to profit the body of Christ withal. The fact that this thread is alienating non tongue speakers into thinking by having this gift of tongues by having a second blessing or another drink of the One Spirit, you can have all those benefits that you do not need any other member of the body of Christ. NOT !!!

Would you call porn a snare of the devil? Would you call catholicism a snare of the devil? Would you call any work of the flesh including heresies as a snare of the devil? But you would not call those astray, the devil or of the devil, would you?

So just because I believe God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people and it is not gained by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation since no other gifts are sought in that way, and since there had been a supernatural tongue in the world that is just vain & profane babbling BEFORE Pentecost had come bringing God's actual gift of tongues, then I am warning you, my brother, that this tongue and how you got it, is not of Him at all.

You say you are praying and yet you say it is the Holy Spirit using tongues to pray. I say neither are praying.

BECAUSE

When you pray without tongues and pray normally, then I will say you are the one praying, but since you do not know what is being said by tongues because it is not being interpreted, you do not know if it is prayer, singing, or giving thanks or you getting edification; therefore that is of confusion and I dare say God is not the author of it. So repent.

You have the Holy Spirit in you since you were saved by faith in Jesus Christ. What came over you separate from salvation bringing tongues without interpretation was NOT the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the antichrist. Wake up, brother. Jesus Christ is in you and can kick that tongue away from you to pray normally, but you have to ask Him for help.

Look at the vanity for praying in tongues.

Matthew 6:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

There is no need for a covert secret language between the Holy Spirit and the Father when the Father knows before we even ask Him, but we are called to pray normally so that we can give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayers that we know we had prayed for. This is pleasing to God & His will.

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Pray without ceasing.[SUP]18 [/SUP]In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

CS1 · Jun 29, 2017

Enow said:

When you testify that the Holy Spirit had to visit them when the scripture says He is in them... yeah.. I can say that the reformation wasn't by those visitations.

If you give credit for the reformation to visiting spirits, claiming that was the Holy Spirit, then I challenged it.

You can have reformation without some supernatural visitation from the Holy Spirit ( as if ) because He is in them.

What? Satan cannot slip in one lie like believing that was the Holy spirit visiting them with signs and confusion? Tell me where reformation has taken place today when people are falling backwards in confusion and babbling on without interpretation. Can't name one, can you? So attributing the reformation to the visitation of the Holy Spirit is definitely an assumption on somebody's part in history.

Not according to 1 John 4:1-6 where Jesus Christ is in you and that is how you know that spirit which is coming over you is the spirit of the antichrist, even bringing tongues that comes with no interpretation as found in the world because that is how they speak their supernatural tongue of vain & profane babbling.

You AND other tongue speakers HAD the Holy Spirit in you since your salvation when you had come to and believed in Jesus Christ AND you still do BECAUSE He will never leave you since you were saved, BUT I am calling it by the grace of God and the scripture that line of discernment in 1 John 4:4 is why that spirit coming over you later on in life separate from salvation IS the spirit of the antichrist.

Indeed, if you blur the line of discernment in 1 John 4:4, you cannot tell what spirit is the spirit of the antichrist.

And I point out, you guys do not stop there with this preaching of receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with the evidence of tongues. No. You go on and preach "slain in the Spirit" and "drunk in the Spirit" and etc.

But Hey. They called on the Holy Spirit so it must be the Holy Spirit that came and brought all that confusion. So are we to fathom that Paul was lying in 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 because God is the author of confusion? That the spirits are NOT subject to the spirits of the prophet? Let me think about that. Hmmmmmmm... Nope. No way. Not even going to give an inch. This is a bad tree producing evil fruits, and even attempting to say that at one time, this helped the reformation WHEN NO ONE IS SEEING THAT IN ANY MOVEMENT OF THE SPIRIT TODAY is taking history's assumption at their word.

The Holy Spirit is in you and scripture limits how the Holy Spirit manifests these gifts which is to profit the body withal, not individual members.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;[SUP] 9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;[SUP] 10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That proves that there is only one drink of the One Spirit that we had been ALL baptized by and therefore it is not by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation is HOW any one gets a spiritual gift as they are only manifested to profit the body of Christ withal. The fact that this thread is alienating non tongue speakers into thinking by having this gift of tongues by having a second blessing or another drink of the One Spirit, you can have all those benefits that you do not need any other member of the body of Christ. NOT !!!

Would you call porn a snare of the devil? Would you call catholicism a snare of the devil? Would you call any work of the flesh including heresies as a snare of the devil? But you would not call those astray, the devil or of the devil, would you?

So just because I believe God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people and it is not gained by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation since no other gifts are sought in that way, and since there had been a supernatural tongue in the world that is just vain & profane babbling BEFORE Pentecost had come bringing God's actual gift of tongues, then I am warning you, my brother, that this tongue and how you got it, is not of Him at all.

You say you are praying and yet you say it is the Holy Spirit using tongues to pray. I say neither are praying.

BECAUSE

When you pray without tongues and pray normally, then I will say you are the one praying, but since you do not know what is being said by tongues because it is not being interpreted, you do not know if it is prayer, singing, or giving thanks or you getting edification; therefore that is of confusion and I dare say God is not the author of it. So repent.

You have the Holy Spirit in you since you were saved by faith in Jesus Christ. What came over you separate from salvation bringing tongues without interpretation was NOT the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the antichrist. Wake up, brother. Jesus Christ is in you and can kick that tongue away from you to pray normally, but you have to ask Him for help.

Look at the vanity for praying in tongues.

Matthew 6:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

There is no need for a covert secret language between the Holy Spirit and the Father when the Father knows before we even ask Him, but we are called to pray normally so that we can give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayers that we know we had prayed for. This is pleasing to God & His will.

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Pray without ceasing.[SUP]18 [/SUP]In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

you are not correct nor has the Holy Spirit left me as you have suggested . I thank you because it was very telling of how you would seek to attack and suggest and over look the vast amount of information of Church history that recorded the move of what church fathers and elders and theologians teach as the Movement s of the Holy Spirit through the ages .

you stated "You AND other tongue speakers HAD the Holy Spirit ".

what a hateful thing to say to someone . If I were not as firm in my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ this may have hurt. Lord knows what it may have done to other you have said this too.

This topic of attack which is not even disagreeable founded in scripture it is personal cannot be allowed any more by you and other so say such awful thing to those who you know nothing about.

I have the Holy Spirit because Jesus is my Lord and savior and HE said HE would never leave me nor forsake me. You do not have to agree with my understand but to attack my relationship with Jesus is not Christian nor what I hope other have to deal with. I thought we could have discussion and you took it there . all can see your words.

and mine.

88 · Jun 30, 2017

Speaking in Tongues/Journal ***Try journaling what God does in your life when you pray in tongues over a 3 week period***commit to praying in tongues 30 minutes a day and ask the Lord what benefits you and others are receiving---write down what God reveals to you***see if you receive inspiration, intimate communion, answered prayer, understanding in the Scriptures in a notable way***

wolfwint · Jun 30, 2017

CS1, of course my expierience as christian is not the messure for soemthing. Thank you also for your outlines.
But they could not convince me.
Of course God is the One who worked through all the churchhistory also in useing miracles and signs. That is not to questioning!
But all the example which you mentioned fit not. Because nobody from them taught what the pentecostal and later the charismatic movenent starts to teach about the Holy Spirit and the gifts!
There is a different. And this different is the teaching about the baptising with the Holy Spirit and the gifts which been as evidence of it. This teaching was spread in the world, like we know it from the "Toronto blessing" People came to Azusa Street and took it in their home churches and from their to other churches (so it came to germany) ore people from Azusa Street brought it to other places. This why all pentecostal churches call it as the beginning point. Of course meanwhile pentecostal theologians are saying this was not the beginning, the beginning was in acts 2. But I say this teaching is not to find in the churchhistory! You find speaking in tongues by the reformators. But they found this not so important that they support it to teach it in their doctrines! Non ot them! If they had taught it, this would be then not new when the pentecostals came in 1905.
And my point is. If your view is true and that this gifts speaking in tongues and healing is given for today as it was given in the days when Paul wrote his letter to the corinthians.
Then a great part of the followers of Christ did not got it! All out of the charismatic and pentecostal movement. This is a consequence of the pentecostal theologie.
And the reason for that is according the pentecostal theologie that we dont want it! It is our own fault, if we dont have the empowerment with the Holy Spirit.

I would say if God wantet this sign gifts into the church today , as he did in the time of 1. Corinthians, then he would made it among all times and among all believers! And would it not make depent to come to a particular places ore people for to get this, what Pentecostals call f.e. second baptism ore empowering with the Holy Spirit!

BTW it seems to me that you not recognized the different between man initiert theologie and Spirit initiert theologie.
Man initiert theologie contain mostly mistakes and is imperfect. Spirit initiert theologie contain no mistakes and is perfect.

The bible says it is possible for an christian to follow a wrong spirit. And this is what i would say the pentecostal and the charismatic movement follows a wrong spirit. This means not that pentecostals ore charismatics are not beeing born again!!!

Under no other movements like pentecostal ore charismatic which claiming to have special empowerments from the Holy Spirit so many false teachings were createt.

Yes, they are the fastest grown movements among christians worldwide, and almost all denominations have charismatics among them, but is this an indicator for to be right?

About Thomas your arguments convinced me not, because it is only a assumption that it was, as you argue. Nowhere it is written that Thomas later was breathed and received the Holy Spirit in the way as the 10 became before.

And coming back to the OP Theme, be shure that you have the right Spirit if you speak, pray and sing in tongues.
And we will have always benefit if we praise our Lord, with our Voice, Thoughts and Life!

So far, our hope should be that many people will come to know of our Lord Jesus Christ in hearing the gospel, before he will return!

plainguy · Jun 30, 2017

88 said:

Doesn't simply praying 30 minutes a day with understanding make more sense ? The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, no ?

plainguy · Jun 30, 2017

Why would our Father, who knows and understands our every thought before we could even express them desire us to speak in a "heavenly language or tongues of angels" ? There are different types of angels. Does each have it's own distinct dialect ? Or is it simply "tongue of angels" ... singular ? Do they understand each other in heaven when God is being worshipped or do they too require an interpreter ? Tongues in the apostolic age was always an earthly language in order that all could hear the gospel message in their own dialect. What occurs today in charismatic/pentecostal circles is not of God's Spirit ... but of man's flesh and man's desire. Unbiblical to the core. I take no pleasure in saying as much.

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