Benefits of Speaking, Praying, and Singing in Tongues

[shrume]

Why would our Father, who knows and understands our every thought before we could even express them desire us to speak in a "heavenly language or tongues of angels" ?

First, God wants us to (1 Cor 14:5).
Second, it edifies us, and when interpreted, it edifies the church (1 Cor 14:4-5).
Third, it's speaking the wonderful works of God, it's magnifying God Acts 2:11; 10:46).
Fourth, it's giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17).
There are more..

There are different types of angels. Does each have it's own distinct dialect ? Or is it simply "tongue of angels" ... singular ?

"tongues" is plural.

Do they understand each other in heaven when God is being worshipped or do they too require an interpreter ?

We don't know.

Tongues in the apostolic age was always an earthly language

Not according to Paul in 1 Cor 13:1.

in order that all could hear the gospel message in their own dialect.

No, that is not the purpose of tongues. You cannot show one example from scripture where tongues is used for "spreading the gospel message". Instead, people were speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God, giving thanks well, edifying the church (when interpreted), etc.

What occurs today in charismatic/pentecostal circles is not of God's Spirit ... but of man's flesh and man's desire. Unbiblical to the core. I take no pleasure in saying as much.

SOME of what occurs in SOME charismatic/pentecostal may not be "of God's Spirit", but you paint with too broad of a brush.

 

[plainguy]

No, that is not the purpose of tongues. You cannot show one example from scripture where tongues is used for "spreading the gospel message". Instead, people were speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God, giving thanks well, edifying the church (when interpreted), etc.

What exactly do you consider the "wonderful works of God" ? The miracles that Jesus performed to attest that He was/is God come in the flesh ... or that He died in our place to save us from our sins ? Were they magnifying God and giving Him thanks because Jesus performed miracles ... or because they were amazed that each heard God being glorified in their own language ? Hey ... thanks God for showing us these wonders. That was pretty cool. Or were they perplexed at heart after listening to Peter speak about Jesus the Christ whom they had crucified ? 3,000 repented and were baptized that day. THAT my friend was spreading the gospel message.

 

[joaniemarie]

There are many things that the Bible through the Holy Spirit requires of me that have nothing to do with how much I understand. Most of what goes on between me and the Lord are based mostly on my growing knowledge of how much He loves me and provides for me through His great salvation.

I don't understand why He would save such a "wretch" like me. Just like the guy who wrote that song I'm aware of my totally falling short of the mark but I've also been privy to the truth through the Holy Spirit that God loves me IN Christ just as I am and has more for me to be and learn in Christ. Even in the natural we use things that we have no idea how they work yet we totally put our trust in those who built those things we use every day such as electricity, plumbing, cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, doctors and hospitals etc.... Yet we want God to totally explain alllllll things to us before we believe Him and use His gifts?

I decided some time ago not to do that. Instead I want to learn about the things He has richly blessed me with and be taught by the Holy Spirit how to use them each day. Since when do we ever know 100% the mysteries of the Lord Jesus? We have only just begun to scratch the surface of how much Jesus did for us and even then, we have to keep going by grace through faith.

Tongues is a gift I've just begun learning about and have yet to go to a church where it is spoken and there needs to be an interpreter. Right now I am learning about the heavenly language for my own prayer life and seeing how it's part of the Holy Spirit's ministry to me. I've also seen how the using of this gift brings peace and joy and a settled heart. And also how it points to Jesus all the time because these gifts are ours only because of Jesus. The Holy Spirit always reveals the Son.

There are way too many things about the Lord Jesus that come by grace through faith and not through my understanding of those things. It's all based on the love of God in Christ and that is how we know they are of God. His Word also witnesses to these things if we have a heart to hear. Quite often our hearts have been hardened to even consider Bible truths that we have long ago thought were settled in our minds. But we are called to go beyond our understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to flow in and through us and receive those living waters.

Jesus told us in John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'from his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

We have a lot to learn from the Holy Spirit. He wants to comfort, guide and teach us all things yet many believers won't hear Him because our minds are closed because we can't fathom other Christians we know didn't tell us this. There are many Christians I respect and loved for many years who do not or did not speak in tongues. I've learned from them and see they have gifts from the Holy Spirit but they are missing out on other things they are just not open to because their minds are closed in that matter. The Lord will never force us to take gifts from Him. They come by grace through faith. But we have to be willing. There is always more for us just as the Lord says., rivers of living water.

 

[Enow]

Why would our Father, who knows and understands our every thought before we could even express them desire us to speak in a "heavenly language or tongues of angels" ? There are different types of angels. Does each have it's own distinct dialect ? Or is it simply "tongue of angels" ... singular ? Do they understand each other in heaven when God is being worshipped or do they too require an interpreter ? Tongues in the apostolic age was always an earthly language in order that all could hear the gospel message in their own dialect. What occurs today in charismatic/pentecostal circles is not of God's Spirit ... but of man's flesh and man's desire. Unbiblical to the core. I take no pleasure in saying as much.

Hear ! Hear !

Matthew 6:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

 

[notuptome]

Doesn't simply praying 30 minutes a day with understanding make more sense ? The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, no ?

We will speak with new tongues. Mark 16:17 Tongues made new by the Holy Spirit when we are saved. Tongues that know and love the Savior.

Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

2 Cor 5 tells us all things are new to those who are saved. That includes the tongue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[plainguy]

We will speak with new tongues. Mark 16:17 Tongues made new by the Holy Spirit when we are saved. Tongues that know and love the Savior.

Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

2 Cor 5 tells us all things are new to those who are saved. That includes the tongue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We'll also pick up deadly serpents and drink poison ... and not be harmed (v18). Until then, I guess we can't claim to be saved. 2 Corinthians 5 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues but rather us being new creatures in Christ. You of all people should know this. Incidentally, and I am not discounting vs 9-20 in Mark ... but the earliest manuscripts available do not contain these verses. The ones that do pretty much attribute them to an author other than Mark himself. In any case, I'd be curious what dialect of tongues you are gifted with ? Earthly ... or otherwise ?

 

[shrume]

What exactly do you consider the "wonderful works of God" ? The miracles that Jesus performed to attest that He was/is God come in the flesh ... or that He died in our place to save us from our sins ? Were they magnifying God and giving Him thanks because Jesus performed miracles ... or because they were amazed that each heard God being glorified in their own language ? Hey ... thanks God for showing us these wonders. That was pretty cool. Or were they perplexed at heart after listening to Peter speak about Jesus the Christ whom they had crucified ? 3,000 repented and were baptized that day. THAT my friend was spreading the gospel message.

Speaking in tongues is not speaking the gospel message. The gospel message was what Peter spoke AFTER the apostles spoke in tongues. See Acts 2:14ff.

 

[Enow]

Speaking in tongues is not speaking the gospel message. The gospel message was what Peter spoke AFTER the apostles spoke in tongues. See Acts 2:14ff.

The problem here is that whereas most would take that as a given on the day of Pentecost, you cannot say that they were not preaching the gospel in tongues since it was written the wonderful works of God and the gospel is certainly that.

Peter did speak in a native tongue of what all these foreign devout Jews were familiar with, being regular visitors to Jerusalem since they had known these men to only speak Galileans. This was done to address all because some were mocking them, probably fellow Galileans that happen on the scene as well.

Granted, it is speculation, but so is yours and since they were to preach the gospel to every nation ( which that commandment was fulfilled at Pentecost ) and to teach them all that He has commanded the disciples, I can say without reservation that it is more than just speculation when I believe the gospel was spoken in their native tongue.

Matthew 28:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That was when they were saved officially so they could preach the gospel to others as the church was born at Pentecost.

 

[shrume]

1 Corinthians 14:[/SIZE][SUP]5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Paul said that. Not God.

Don't you believe scripture is God-breathed? I do.

Paul as led by the Lord was exhorting them when seeking spiritual gifts starting in verse 1, to seek the gift of prophesy, and began explaining why by comparing tongues against prophesy as not a stand alone gift since he set precedent for that point in 1 Corinthians 12th chapter that the manifestations of the gifts was to profit the body withal.

When a believer speaks in tongues to himself, he edifies himself. When he speaks in tongues and interprets in the church (in public), it edifies the church.

1 Corinthians 12:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal....[SUP]10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Yes, the manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY man. In the church, different people will do different things. In the church, not everyone will speak in tongues, interpret, prophesy, etc.

So God's gift of tongues is not gained by receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation.

Agreed. When a person hears the gospel and believes it, he is saved, sealed with the gift of holy spirit. That single gift of holy spirit enables the believer to operate the manifestations of that gift.

That phenomenon is not of Him and that is why that tongue NEVER comes with interpretation because it is that supernatural tongue found in the world as vain & profane babbling. God is not the author of confusion.

You seem confused...

When done in public, tongues should ALWAYS be interpreted so the body of believers can be edified.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]32 [/SUP]And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.[SUP] 33 [/SUP]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Yes, Christians are responsible for the proper usage of the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.

Nowhere in the Book of Acts were sinners prepped to receive the Holy Ghost after a sign of tongues. Nowhere in the Book of Acts were believers that were already saved, were prepped to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign of tongues.

Again, every Christian is sealed with the gift of holy spirit. That happens only one time, when a person hears the gospel and believes it (Eph 1:13).

You have scripture speaking against not only how believers were getting this tongue without interpretation, but the tongue itself as it must come with interpretation or understood by a foreigner or it is vain & profane babbling supernatural tongue as found in the world that even the Bible testified of in Isaiah 8:19 in the occult.

I do not have scripture speaking against anything. Every Christian, because they have been sealed with the gift of holy spirit, has the ability to operate the manifestation of that gift. Most are simply unaware of it.

The apostle John warned believers not to believe every spirit but test them, and that test is that greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world and those with the spirit of error will speak that supernatural tongue that the world speaks as they receive their spirits after a sign too, including a sign of vain & profane babbling. 1 John 4:1-6

This is the falling away from the faith spoken of in 1 Timothy 4:1-2.

I do not agree with your opinion of what 1 John 4:1-6 are saying. I would suggest that part of the falling away from the faith is not understanding what the manifestations of holy spirit are, and how they are to be used.

They preach that believers do not always get the Holy Spirit at salvation and they are to seek the Holy Spirit separate from salvation by a sign of tongues, but Romans 8:9 reproves that because any one that has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Anyone who preaches that is wrong. Every Christian has the gift of holy spirit.

They preach it is another baptism of the Holy Ghost that comes with evidence of tongues, but 1 Corinthians 12:13 says there is only one baptism with the One Spirit that we ALL have been baptized by in having that one drink of the One Spirit.

I agree with you that there is only one baptism, and that baptism is baptism in holy spirit.

They even preach that if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit, and thus you are not saved

Anyone who preaches that is wrong. There are many Christians (perhaps the majority) who do not speak in tongues. But I submit that it's due to ignorance.

but 1 Corinthians 12:30 has Paul saying that not all speaks in tongues & 1 Corinthians 14:22 cites that tongues were not to serve as a sign to believers that they were saved, but tongues were to serve as a sign to unbelievers.

It's true that not all Christians speak in tongues. Paul was speaking in the context of meetings, where obviously not everyone can do everything.

And you cannot disregard "I would that ye all spake with tongues".

It's interesting that you insist 1 Cor 14:5 is only "Paul speaking", but in 1 Cor 12:30 you put great weight in what Paul says.

So no matter how you slice it, tongue speakers are doing the private interpretation to fit that tongue without interpretation and thus it is assumed it is a prayer language of the Holy Spirit into scripture at the expense of the truth in John 16:13.

John 16:13 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

So I ask you since Jesus Christ is your Good Shepherd, to go before that throne of grace for help to see this lie for what it is because they do not know what that phenomenon was nor that tongue which is a stranger's voice they are following.

May I suggest you pray for a little more understanding as to what the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit are, and how they are to be used.

Again, you are missing the point for why Paul was comparing tongues to prophecy as to why prophecy was better because tongues is not a stand alone gift. Proof of that is how Paul went on to explain that when he speaks in tongues, he prays that someone else may interpret for that tongue to be fruitful to himself for he would understand with the tongue.

Prophesy edifies the church. So does tongues, when it is interpreted. That's why IN THE CHURCH tongues should always be interpreted.

And Paul was not praying for "someone else" to interpret. When a person speaks in tongues in the church, that person should be the one to interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.[SUP]14[/SUP]For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

See? "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret"

So it is not the Holy Spirit praying, but manifesting the tongue while Paul is praying that someone else may interpret the tongue so that the tongue will be fruitful to himself by understanding that tongue.

No, tongues is always beneficial to the person speaking in tongues. But if others are to be edified, tongues must be interpreted.

A poster testified that when he speaks in tongues, he hears English and the local who only knew Spanish heard Spanish at the same time he heard himself speak in tongues, hearing English.

That's not speaking in tongues. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2).

Another poster pulled out an errant translation to prove their point. They are lying as Paul just explained that he understands it not, needing an interpretation.

Therefore tongues by itself does not edify the tongue speaker until interpreted.

That's not true. The person speaking in tongues is always edified. He is praising God, praying in the spirit, and giving thanks well. But since he, and most likely everyone else present with him, does not understand the tongue, when tongues are spoken in public they must be interpreted (1 Cor 14:5)

Paul obviously was not meaning that the tongue speaker is edified without interpretation

That is precisely what Paul meant.

when he was in the midst of explaining why prophesy was better than tongues because tongues is not nor will it ever be a stand alone gift for which is why prophesy is better.

Prophesy is NOT better.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

That can be read as preaching the Good News in Christ.

Preaching the good news is always done in a language people understand.

Not unless interpreted, otherwise it is unfruitful to the tongue speaker.

No, the person speaking in tongues is always edified. The church cannot be edified unless tongues is interpreted.

Seeing how angels speaks in our languages for us to understand them, it is redundant to speak in tongues of angel. Paul was not saying that he was, but citing an extreme example when speaking in that language of the angels and have not love, he is nothing.

I believe it means what it says, that when a person speaks in tongues, he is either speaking a language of men or of angels.

Seeing how mankind had originally spoken in one language, they all speak the same language and therefore needing no interpreter. God certainly does not need an interpreter nor do they from Him.

The fact that mankind originally had one language has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

Whom was giving an exaggeration to show how not having love, it is nothing. There are other exaggerations given.

1 Corinthians 13:1

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Again, I believe it means what it says.

What did the angels say when Christ was born? No beating around the bush there. So why in the world would you think the Holy Spirit would talk about any other wonderful works of God?

The angels were not speaking in tongues.

Jesus would use that broad stroke brush because no evil tree will produce a good fruit and no good tree will produce an evil fruit and the fruit of the false prophet is ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles.

Speaking in tongues is not evil.

You will find this phenomenon of receiving what they believe is the Holy Spirit separate from salvation, bringing tongues without interpretation or other signs in the flesh of confusion like falling down and stuff is of the same evil tree of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation.

Again, people receive the gift of holy spirit at salvation. There is no "second baptism".

And you are right about "falling down and stuff". That is not from God.

Paul testified that this is the falling away from the faith

No, he did not.

and he reproved the lie that causes this falling away from the faith by reminding believers of this tradition that they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel and thus by no other calling.

Part of the "tradition that they had received" was the proper instruction on how to use the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.

So go before that throne of grace for help to confirm the word to you to see this lie for what it is and shun vain & profane babbling and pray normally so you can give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayers.

I will continue to as Paul did:

1 Cor 14:
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Eph 6:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[notuptome]

We'll also pick up deadly serpents and drink poison ... and not be harmed (v18). Until then, I guess we can't claim to be saved. 2 Corinthians 5 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues but rather us being new creatures in Christ. You of all people should know this. Incidentally, and I am not discounting vs 9-20 in Mark ... but the earliest manuscripts available do not contain these verses. The ones that do pretty much attribute them to an author other than Mark himself. In any case, I'd be curious what dialect of tongues you are gifted with ? Earthly ... or otherwise ?

I'm saying it is the organ of speech not the speech itself. I agree with the long ending of Mark 16 being some what in question but it is a favorite passage of those who practice the modern version of tongues as languages. What if we understand Mark 16:20 tongues as the tongue in the mouth and not language?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

I'm saying it is the organ of speech not the speech itself. I agree with the long ending of Mark 16 being some what in question but it is a favorite passage of those who practice the modern version of tongues as languages. What if we understand Mark 16:20 tongues as the tongue in the mouth and not language?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For what it's worth, I speak in tongues, and I also question the long ending of Mark 16. I never use it for "defending" tongues.

 

[CS1]

CS1, of course my expierience as christian is not the messure for soemthing. Thank you also for your outlines.
But they could not convince me.
Of course God is the One who worked through all the churchhistory also in useing miracles and signs. That is not to questioning!
But all the example which you mentioned fit not. Because nobody from them taught what the pentecostal and later the charismatic movenent starts to teach about the Holy Spirit and the gifts!
There is a different. And this different is the teaching about the baptising with the Holy Spirit and the gifts which been as evidence of it. This teaching was spread in the world, like we know it from the "Toronto blessing" People came to Azusa Street and took it in their home churches and from their to other churches (so it came to germany) ore people from Azusa Street brought it to other places. This why all pentecostal churches call it as the beginning point. Of course meanwhile pentecostal theologians are saying this was not the beginning, the beginning was in acts 2. But I say this teaching is not to find in the churchhistory! You find speaking in tongues by the reformators. But they found this not so important that they support it to teach it in their doctrines! Non ot them! If they had taught it, this would be then not new when the pentecostals came in 1905.
And my point is. If your view is true and that this gifts speaking in tongues and healing is given for today as it was given in the days when Paul wrote his letter to the corinthians.
Then a great part of the followers of Christ did not got it! All out of the charismatic and pentecostal movement. This is a consequence of the pentecostal theologie.
And the reason for that is according the pentecostal theologie that we dont want it! It is our own fault, if we dont have the empowerment with the Holy Spirit.

I would say if God wantet this sign gifts into the church today , as he did in the time of 1. Corinthians, then he would made it among all times and among all believers! And would it not make depent to come to a particular places ore people for to get this, what Pentecostals call f.e. second baptism ore empowering with the Holy Spirit!

BTW it seems to me that you not recognized the different between man initiert theologie and Spirit initiert theologie.
Man initiert theologie contain mostly mistakes and is imperfect. Spirit initiert theologie contain no mistakes and is perfect.

The bible says it is possible for an christian to follow a wrong spirit. And this is what i would say the pentecostal and the charismatic movement follows a wrong spirit. This means not that pentecostals ore charismatics are not beeing born again!!!

Under no other movements like pentecostal ore charismatic which claiming to have special empowerments from the Holy Spirit so many false teachings were createt.

Yes, they are the fastest grown movements among christians worldwide, and almost all denominations have charismatics among them, but is this an indicator for to be right?

About Thomas your arguments convinced me not, because it is only a assumption that it was, as you argue. Nowhere it is written that Thomas later was breathed and received the Holy Spirit in the way as the 10 became before.

And coming back to the OP Theme, be shure that you have the right Spirit if you speak, pray and sing in tongues.
And we will have always benefit if we praise our Lord, with our Voice, Thoughts and Life!


So far, our hope should be that many people will come to know of our Lord Jesus Christ in hearing the gospel, before he will return!

interesting read I think the issue is what you say " Pentecostals/charismatics " claim to have special empowerment . That is opinionated because not all do. Secondly The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not subject to a denomination but in context to the Word of God. To be far I think you have a good point however, in your post it is only speaking about a certain group .

I do not see anything that changes the context of 1 cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 where a person ASK God for what is in those chapters concerning the Gifts of The Holy Spirit. Just because a person says I do not believe that the gifts used today are of God surely doesn't that to be true for all situations. I think for some nothing will meet their approval .

As I have said many times which some have chosen to over look :

1. all Gifts from God are misused by men and women of God ( Saved) .
2. Preaching the most abused in many non-Pentecostal church Yet I would not blanket all as abusers

this topic always has hard lines and some very overly hurt for tones .

some focus on the wrong of denominations in the context of " The Gifts of the Spirit " . I think the context of the Bible and what is for today and well seen Scripture is the way I think to go. One can say what they think is or is not the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" used today ok go ahead

 

[sevenseas]

Why would our Father, who knows and understands our every thought before we could even express them desire us to speak in a "heavenly language or tongues of angels" ? There are different types of angels. Does each have it's own distinct dialect ? Or is it simply "tongue of angels" ... singular ? Do they understand each other in heaven when God is being worshipped or do they too require an interpreter ? Tongues in the apostolic age was always an earthly language in order that all could hear the gospel message in their own dialect. What occurs today in charismatic/pentecostal circles is not of God's Spirit ... but of man's flesh and man's desire. Unbiblical to the core. I take no pleasure in saying as much.

well again we see reasoning that has nothing to do with scripture and everything to do with lack of faith in the word and somehow imagining that because human intellect tells itself tongues are for those who are nuts or whatever and us smart guys, haha, know better and so we will just pray, for about 5 minutes, and move on

here is what is really going on

the Holy Spirit will pray through a person who is praying in tongues (any use to explain what is already in scripture and handily overlooked so often by scoffers and those with the real big brains?)

I have seen many many times in my life where praying in tongues changed something or gave direction (when I understood in English what my spirit had prayed in tongues) and also been made aware of things going on BECAUSE I pray in tongues. in other words, it's a good thing. a very good thing in fact.

do I expect anyone to understand that from among the naysayers? no I do not. and while I will usually apologize for using sarcasm, this time I will not because that is exactly the tone taken by naysayers who do not have the wherewithal the donkey who spoke to the profit had, to understand what the Holy Spirit is saying through the words written on the pages of your Bibles

 

[sevenseas]

There are many things that the Bible through the Holy Spirit requires of me that have nothing to do with how much I understand. Most of what goes on between me and the Lord are based mostly on my growing knowledge of how much He loves me and provides for me through His great salvation.

I don't understand why He would save such a "wretch" like me. Just like the guy who wrote that song I'm aware of my totally falling short of the mark but I've also been privy to the truth through the Holy Spirit that God loves me IN Christ just as I am and has more for me to be and learn in Christ. Even in the natural we use things that we have no idea how they work yet we totally put our trust in those who built those things we use every day such as electricity, plumbing, cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, doctors and hospitals etc.... Yet we want God to totally explain alllllll things to us before we believe Him and use His gifts?

I decided some time ago not to do that. Instead I want to learn about the things He has richly blessed me with and be taught by the Holy Spirit how to use them each day. Since when do we ever know 100% the mysteries of the Lord Jesus? We have only just begun to scratch the surface of how much Jesus did for us and even then, we have to keep going by grace through faith.

Tongues is a gift I've just begun learning about and have yet to go to a church where it is spoken and there needs to be an interpreter. Right now I am learning about the heavenly language for my own prayer life and seeing how it's part of the Holy Spirit's ministry to me. I've also seen how the using of this gift brings peace and joy and a settled heart. And also how it points to Jesus all the time because these gifts are ours only because of Jesus. The Holy Spirit always reveals the Son.

There are way too many things about the Lord Jesus that come by grace through faith and not through my understanding of those things. It's all based on the love of God in Christ and that is how we know they are of God. His Word also witnesses to these things if we have a heart to hear. Quite often our hearts have been hardened to even consider Bible truths that we have long ago thought were settled in our minds. But we are called to go beyond our understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to flow in and through us and receive those living waters.

Jesus told us in John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'from his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

We have a lot to learn from the Holy Spirit. He wants to comfort, guide and teach us all things yet many believers won't hear Him because our minds are closed because we can't fathom other Christians we know didn't tell us this. There are many Christians I respect and loved for many years who do not or did not speak in tongues. I've learned from them and see they have gifts from the Holy Spirit but they are missing out on other things they are just not open to because their minds are closed in that matter. The Lord will never force us to take gifts from Him. They come by grace through faith. But we have to be willing. There is always more for us just as the Lord says., rivers of living water.

totally yes to the highlighted above!

I have been praying in tongues a long time. more of my life then not. God is good. All the time!

 

[Enow]

Originally Posted by Enow

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Paul said that. Not God.
[/SIZE]

Don't you believe scripture is God-breathed? I do.

I tried to find the original post by clicking on that double arrow by my username but zilch. As it is, I am pretty sure my statement of "Paul said that. Not God" is out of context of what you are inferring that I meant, because I believe everything Paul wrote was scripture and he states when he is speaking by permission and not by commandment in 1 Corinthians 7th chapter as an example. So obviously, I am meaning something else by that statement.

When a believer speaks in tongues to himself, he edifies himself. When he speaks in tongues and interprets in the church (in public), it edifies the church.

That is what Paul said when comparing the gift of tongues by itself with prophecy for why prophecy is better because tongues is not a stand alone gift. Read 1 Corinthians 14:1-5 altogether in context of what Paul is trying to say.

Since Paul went on to explain that it is not fruitful even to himself unless interpreted, he is not edified until it is. Paul acknowledged that it does edify because that is what God's gift of tongues is for, but by itself, it is unfruitful unless interpreted as explained continuously thru out that chapter.

Yes, the manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY man. In the church, different people will do different things. In the church, not everyone will speak in tongues, interpret, prophesy, etc.

None of these gifts are gained by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation.

Agreed. When a person hears the gospel and believes it, he is saved, sealed with the gift of holy spirit. That single gift of holy spirit enables the believer to operate the manifestations of that gift.

I thank the Lord Jesus Christ that you agree on that point of faith in Jesus Christ.

You seem confused...

When done in public, tongues should ALWAYS be interpreted so the body of believers can be edified.

There is a supernatural phenomenon which befalls believers later on in life after their salvation, bringing tongues with no interpretation and so they reason that it is a prayer language of the Holy Spirit when John 16:13 says it is not.

Yes, Christians are responsible for the proper usage of the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.

Again, every Christian is sealed with the gift of holy spirit. That happens only one time, when a person hears the gospel and believes it (Eph 1:13).

I do not have scripture speaking against anything. Every Christian, because they have been sealed with the gift of holy spirit, has the ability to operate the manifestation of that gift. Most are simply unaware of it.

I do not agree with your opinion of what 1 John 4:1-6 are saying. I would suggest that part of the falling away from the faith is not understanding what the manifestations of holy spirit are, and how they are to be used.

Yes, well God's gift of tongues are manifested to profit the body withal and so tongues cannot operate by itself in being fruitful even to the tongue speaker. This whole thread trying to validate tongues without interpretation of all the benefits that it does.. is speaking against what Paul said that no one member of the body can say to another that I have no need of you when tongues needs interpretation to even be fruitful to the tongue speaker.

Anyone who preaches that is wrong. Every Christian has the gift of holy spirit.

True. Even the tongue speakers. The problem is this teaching that they can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with that sign of tongues which never comes with interpretation.

Some will say it differently by preaching "another baptism" of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

It is noted that both preaching never produces tongues that comes with interpretation, but is just vain & profane babbling. The experience is real.. and the tongue is real, but without interpretation, it is a stranger's voice they are following.

As if that was not bad enough, there are other supernatural phenomenon to be had by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again and again and again in these "slain in the Spirit" and the "being drunk in the Spirit" and the "holy laughter" movement.

How can tongues without interpretation not be seen as confusion with all of these other signs of confusion coming by that apostasy?

I agree with you that there is only one baptism, and that baptism is baptism in holy spirit.

Good. I pray the Lord will wake you up about what is His real gift of tongue and what is not of Him.

Anyone who preaches that is wrong. There are many Christians (perhaps the majority) who do not speak in tongues. But I submit that it's due to ignorance.

It is due to the falling away from the faith as some of them call it the second blessing. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

It's true that not all Christians speak in tongues. Paul was speaking in the context of meetings, where obviously not everyone can do everything.

And you cannot disregard "I would that ye all spake with tongues".

It's interesting that you insist 1 Cor 14:5 is only "Paul speaking", but in 1 Cor 12:30 you put great weight in what Paul says.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

I see Paul speaking for himself, and if that is what I meant by Paul said that; not God, then that is what I had meant.

John 16:13 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

Yes.. it does.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. NASB

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ESV

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth:for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. ASV

That means the Holy Spirit CANNOT use God's gift of tongues to speak unto the people by turning it around to use as His personal means for prayer.

1 Cor 14:
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Taking that out of context to mean you can pray in tongue is not wise, brother. In context;

Paul is instructing in verse 13 that if any one speaks in tongue, they are to pray that another may interpret.

Paul goes on to specify when praying while speaking in tongues, it is his spirit that is praying; not the Holy Spirit. Paul is praying while speaking in tongues that someone else may interpret. That is what he had meant in context of verse 13.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.[SUP] 14 [/SUP]For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[SUP]15 [/SUP]What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

And so Paul is praying that some one else may interpret because otherwise it is unfruitful to himself as stated in verse 14. Therefore he exhorts the point for tongue speakers to pray that someone may interpret for Paul would have that understanding as well.

Verse 15 is hardly a verse signifying that Paul was using tongues as a prayer language and h was not saying he was praying with the Holy Spirit when he is referring to his own spirit for understanding.

Eph 6:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

That's for YOU to pray; not the Holy Spirit. Praying in the Spirit is not meaning praying TO the Spirit or praying WITH the Spirit when 1 Corinthians 14:15 cannot be read into Ephesians 6:18 in that way when that was not what Paul was saying.

Indeed, one can apply this verse to believers that seek to pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on them and certainly that is not praying IN the Spirit nor IN the truth.

I would like to believe that you have God's gift of tongue because you seem to be steering clear of claiming you had obtained that tongue by apostasy, but something is way off when you keep claiming that you can use it without interpretation. It is more than likely that you are misreading and misapplying Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter that so many other tongue speakers are doing to justify that tongues can come without interpretation.

The fact that you fail to see the point of Paul's message thru out that chapter as to why prophesy is better than tongues is why you are seeing tongues better in spite of Paul's words.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

BUT for this thread and all the arguments, tongues without interpretation is better than prophesy, and YET that was not what Paul was saying at all.

 

[shrume]

Enow, your response is noted. I disagree with much of it. I believe you are failing to understand the difference between speaking in tongues to yourself and speaking in tongues in public. When done in public, it should always be done in order (one at a time) and be interpreted so the church can be edified. Sadly, most Pentecostal groups pay no attention to this fact. They are doing exactly what Paul was teaching against in 1 Cor 14. Everyone speaks at once, and interpretations are rare. IE: most Pentecostal groups are "doing it wrong".

Maybe I'll address more later, but in many ways it would simply be repeating what I said in my previous post.

Blessings.

 

[shrume]

Enow, I'll try and answer later... Dinner time here, stuff to do.

 

[Enow]

Enow, I'll try and answer later... Dinner time here, stuff to do.

Okay. God be willing.

Seems someone deleted my last post that I had questions for you. That person must have thought they were hard questions that he could not answer to. As if God told him that is what he is supposed to do when he does not have an answer. He should have let you answered it. Oh well.

Thanks for sharing. Not sure if we can continue the discussion when someone else is deleting my posts. We shall see.

 

[shrume]

God is willing. Apparently some mod is not.

Mods should not be deleting posts they don't like.

...I'm assuming only mods can delete other's posts...

 

[plainguy]

well again we see reasoning that has nothing to do with scripture and everything to do with lack of faith in the word and somehow imagining that because human intellect tells itself tongues are for those who are nuts or whatever and us smart guys, haha, know better and so we will just pray, for about 5 minutes, and move on

here is what is really going on

the Holy Spirit will pray through a person who is praying in tongues (any use to explain what is already in scripture and handily overlooked so often by scoffers and those with the real big brains?)

I have seen many many times in my life where praying in tongues changed something or gave direction (when I understood in English what my spirit had prayed in tongues) and also been made aware of things going on BECAUSE I pray in tongues. in other words, it's a good thing. a very good thing in fact.

do I expect anyone to understand that from among the naysayers? no I do not. and while I will usually apologize for using sarcasm, this time I will not because that is exactly the tone taken by naysayers who do not have the wherewithal the donkey who spoke to the profit had, to understand what the Holy Spirit is saying through the words written on the pages of your Bibles

Why would you need the words written on the pages of your bible when God's Spirit prays/communicates with God through and for you ?