Bride isn't going to be in the tribulation

[PlainWord]

then who gets saved during the non-existent future 1,000 years?
you have flesh people and glorified people populating a half cursed earth or what?

The 1,000 future years are real. But I am re-thinking that we will all be in spiritual bodies. Obviously the Elect will be in spiritual bodies, incorruptible. But that doesn't mean they will all be saved. Even the damned received incorruptible bodies, otherwise they would die the moment they hit the flames.

 

[PlainWord]

this so-called distinction between "Israel" and the "Church" is so entirely anti-gospel, it's beyond my understanding how anyone believes it.

This I totally agree with. We are one Olive Tree. Romans 11 couldn't be clearer but most of the church is walking around all haughty, just as Paul specifically warns against, thinking they are better than the Jews because they believe in the Messiah. Meanwhile they are feasting at Satan's table of lies concerning the Rapture and prophesy which makes up 1/3 of the Bible. When you look at scripture through the lens of Satanic lies so much of the truth becomes distorted.

take out the future 1,000 years that doesn't exist and you have it right.

You lost me here though...

 

[PlainWord]

2 Thess 2:9-12: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

This kind of reminds me of that scripture that speaks of God handing people over to the lusts of their hearts, those who worship the creature and not the Creator.

We're told that these deceptions will be so believable that "if possible" it would deceive even the elect, but no believer will be deceived by it, since believers have the wisdom of God and not the wisdom of the world. The lost do not have the helmet to protect their heads so are open to deception and many will perish because they didn't receive the love of the truth that they might be saved. They will believe the lie.

1 Cor 1:18-19: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

I liked most of this, but disagree that the Saved and the Elect are the same. They are NOT the same. All of the Elect are saved but not all of the Saved are the Elect. This is so clear from a study of Revelation, specifically Chapters 7, 19 and 20 with a little bit of Chapter 14, 17 and 18 thrown in.

Satan can absolutely deceive Christians and does. Exhibit A is the Great Multitude in Heaven. But Satan cannot deceive the Elect. They have the truth or Seal of God on their foreheads (minds).

 

[LT]

When will the Rapture happen? It is written that the dead in Christ will rise 1st, then, those still alive in Christ will be caught up and meet them in the air.
So, to find out when the Rapture will happen, we need to find out when the Resurrection will happen. We find out that there will be 2 Resurrections, so the earliest time for the Rapture would be at the 1st Resurrection.
When will the "first Resurrection" take place?
To find out when the 1st Resurrection will happen, look at Revelation 20:5. It is at the end of the Tribulation, at the very moment Christ returns.
The Bride is not escaping early, instead, the Last Days are cut short for her sake!

 

[LT]

The Return of Christ, the Resurrection, and the Rapture are all the same event.
Rev 16:15 is what Jesus says at the Battle of Armageddon. "I come, like a theif!"
If you believe in an imminent Rapture, then you believe in an imminent Battle of Armageddon as well.

 

[Isdaniel]

The Return of Christ, the Resurrection, and the Rapture are all the same event.
Rev 16:15 is what Jesus says at the Battle of Armageddon. "I come, like a theif!"
If you believe in an imminent Rapture, then you believe in an imminent Battle of Armageddon as well.

Well said all is one event at the same time

 

[Isdaniel]

When will the Rapture happen? It is written that the dead in Christ will rise 1st, then, those still alive in Christ will be caught up and meet them in the air.
So, to find out when the Rapture will happen, we need to find out when the Resurrection will happen. We find out that there will be 2 Resurrections, so the earliest time for the Rapture would be at the 1st Resurrection.
When will the "first Resurrection" take place?
To find out when the 1st Resurrection will happen, look at Revelation 20:5. It is at the end of the Tribulation, at the very moment Christ returns.
The Bride is not escaping early, instead, the Last Days are cut short for her sake!

Matthew 24
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

[Isdaniel]

The Secret Rapture
​

​

How will the Lord Jesus Christ return in His Second Coming?​

​

​

The Dispensation doctrine states that when the Church is raptured into heaven the Jews will be left behind to face the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation which lasts seven years. C. I. Schofield published his Reference Bible in 1909 with notes referring to the dispensation doctrine. Today you can find many books on the End Time promoting the dispensation doctrine and the Secret Rapture Theory.


When I asked the question, “Where will you be during the Great Tribulation?” our Christian friends would give answers like “I’ll be out of this world” or “I’ll be with Jesus in Heaven”. I then asked them, “Do you mean you will be dead by then?” They quickly replied, “No, we would have raptured and disappeared from the earth.” “Really!” I turned to Matthew 24:29-31 and showed them what it says:

 

[Isdaniel]

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mt. 24:29-31)

Here is a clear statement from our Lord Jesus Christ who said that He will be coming “immediately after the tribulation” and not before, so how can Christians be with Him in Heaven during the Great Tribulation? Our Christian friends explained they would be secretly raptured before that time, which means they will suddenly disappear from the earth before the Great Tribulation occurs. The word “rapture” is derived from the Latin word “raptura” with the meaning of “seizure” or being snatched away. It also means overwhelming happiness.

 

[Isdaniel]

“Left Behind”​

​

​

​

​

​

“But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” (Mt. 24:37-42)

Our Lord Jesus Christ draws an analogy to the days of Noah in which the Noah and family were taken away into the ark and the and wicked people who were LEFT BEHIND destroyed by the flood. They “did not know until the flood came and took them all away”.

 

[Isdaniel]

Is the Secret Rapture Theory biblical?​

​

This secret rapture theory is fascinating but is it biblical? Let us examine some of the scriptural verses that proponents of the Secret Rapture Theory use to support their beliefs.

The Lord Jesus Christ is coming back as a thief in the night​

​

The New Testament has many passages that compare the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ with the unexpected house break-in of the thief at night. Those who teach the Secret Rapture say the Lord Jesus Christ will come as a thief in the night to snatch away true believers while others are asleep. Let us examine each passage carefully and see what is their real message.

Matthew 24:42-43 Our Lord said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken in.” These verses say nothing about the secret rapture, but only indicate Jesus will return like the thief who would come at an unknown and unexpected time. The warning is for Christians to be ready at all times.

 

[Isdaniel]

JESUS WILL COME LIKE A THIEF

1 Thessalonians 5:2 The apostle Paul wrote: “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” This verse does not mean that believers would be raptured because if you read two verses below Paul gave the explanation. “But you, brethren, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.” (1 Thes. 5:4) It says nothing about a secret rapture. Again, the message here is NOT that Jesus' coming will be secret, but that it will occur at a time when most will not expect it, therefore we must WATCH!
2 Peter 3:10 Here is a scriptural verse that completely destroys the secret rapture theory. “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” How can there be a secret rapture when “the heavens will pass away with a great noise”?

Revelation 3:3 The Lord Jesus Christ said: “Remember therefore how you have received and heard: hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” There is nothing in this verse that even vaguely suggests that Christians will be raptured secretly. Here is an instruction for them to watch because nobody knows when Jesus will be returning.

 

[Isdaniel]

Revelation 16:15 This verse states, “Behold, I am coming as a thief.” Again it says nothing about a secret rapture. The rest of the verse state,“Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” This verse is preceded and followed by verses that show very clearly the Lord Jesus Christ will only return after “battle of that great day of God Almighty. . . Armageddon.” (Rev. 16:14-16)
Unless you insert your own interpretation into the verses there is nothing to indicate there is any secret rapture before the Lord Jesus Christ returns.

 

[Isdaniel]

The Return of the Lord Jesus Christ is visible
and audible, and there is no Third Coming
​

​

​

Advocates of the Secret Rapture teach there are two phases of the Lord’s Return. In the first phase Jesus will come secretly to take believers with Him to Heaven, and in the second phase, which is after the Great Tribulation, our Lord will return with the saints. Although they do not like to admit it but they are suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ will have a Third Coming. Where in the Bible does it say that? Let us examine some of the scriptural verses that show this theory of the Secret Rapture and the Third Coming is completely flawed.

 

[Isdaniel]

WHERE IN THE BIBLE SAY A 3RD TIME ?

.Appearance a second time This verse states very clearly that our Lord Jesus Christ will appear a second time.
“So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” (Heb. 9:28) Christ’s appearance a second time is not a secret at all.
“When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” (Col. 3:4)

 

[Isdaniel]

Christ’s Second Coming will be like the lightning
In the discourse on His Second Coming our Lord Jesus Christ describes it so graphically that no one can misinterpret it any other way: “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Mt. 24:27) Can anyone not see the lightning when it flashes across the sky? How then can anyone think the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a secret one?

 

[Isdaniel]

The Lord Jesus Christ will come at the 7TH trumpet in which during it He comes WITH THE LAST TRUMPET WHICH IS THE TRUMP OF GOD

Here is what the apostle Paul wrote: “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Cor. 15:51-52) “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mt. 24:31)There are seven trumpets mentioned in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 8:6). From the first trumpet to the seventh trumpet the earth will be undergoing the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:7-13; 9:1-21). “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)
[SUP]
Revelation 10
7 [/SUP]But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets


What is this mystery ?

 

[Isdaniel]

If you read through the entire Bible you will never be able find one single verse that even remotely suggests the Lord Jesus Christ will return in secret to take the believers with Him to Heaven, and then return again the third time. The New Testament clearly refers to the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ as His Second and Final Coming before the earth is destroyed by fire (2 Pet. 3:10-12). -

May God bless you
​

​

​

 

[Isdaniel]

I liked most of this, but disagree that the Saved and the Elect are the same. They are NOT the same. All of the Elect are saved but not all of the Saved are the Elect. This is so clear from a study of Revelation, specifically Chapters 7, 19 and 20 with a little bit of Chapter 14, 17 and 18 thrown in.

Satan can absolutely deceive Christians and does. Exhibit A is the Great Multitude in Heaven. But Satan cannot deceive the Elect. They have the truth or Seal of God on their foreheads (minds).

All Of God people must be sealed and the seal is not for revelation alone it always existed in the past
Isaiah 8

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Yahshua]

Matt 24:22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

Rev 7:9 - A multitude beyond numbering.... martyred during the Great Tribulation.... how do you get an unfathomable multitude of martyrs if the believers are all raptured.

Rev 16:15 - the thief in the night verses (Luke 12:39,40; 2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thes 5:2; Rev 3:3) all point to the moment before Armageddon, not a pre-trib rapture.

If people would let go of pre-trib rapture, they would be able to finally realize that the 70 weeks of Daniel were complete in ad 70, and then they would realize that the Great Tribulation is not only 7 years long, then they would realize that many of these things have been happening since before the Crusades, and that only a handful of prophecies in Rev and Dan and Ezek are left.

Yeah...I'm of the same opinion. When I study scripture on this topic with family I try to remind them that there has been a LOT of human history that we've gone through after Christ ascended to his throne in heaven before most of us were even born.

- There was the Inquisition & Beheading of true believers who didn't conform to "holy" Roman doctrines (Matthew 24:9)
- There was a detestable structure built on the temple mount (Matthew 24:15...); Mt. Moriah, God's mountain.
- then The Crusades (with true believers caught between Rome and Mecca)
- then The Diaspora AND Trans Atlantic Slave Trade & Slavery (undoubtedly true believers caught in those)
- and then two WORLD WARS (which was actually one Great War with a small break; and true believers were caught in the middle of that too)

...and even in all of that death, it ended with a weapon of such power and magnitude that it obliterated a couple of cities (to Matthew 24:22). And again all of this happened after Christ ascended to his throne in heaven. And for true believers in Christ who preached love for one's neighbor ("turning the other cheek"), I'd say this WAS tribulation...and it was great. And there are STILL people dying for the testimony of Christ across the world.

Does that mean we're personally free from tribulation? Absolutely not; I think we're still in it. Personally I believe we're in the trial of deception; the very next event Christ spoke of - in order - after all of the suffering (Matthew 24:23-24). The order of Matthew 24 is impeccable if we look at these past 2000 years as "2 days" (2 Peter 3:8). Imagine all of that suffering happening in just 2 days! If it had continued for another "day", truly no flesh would've been saved (but for the elect sake). But our trial is...

Matthew 24:23-26

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers [i.e. "coming in secret"]; believe it not.

..for his coming will be like LIGHTNING STRIKING! from one part of the sky to the other.

That's how I understand it...but of course I'm still studying & praying, and my understanding can change.