Bride isn't going to be in the tribulation

[Brother_Don]

Revelation 7:13-14, And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14, And i said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me. These are they that came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. This sounds like these people are in the great tribulation then, come out.

 

[PlainWord]

Read it again. It says he will make war with the saints.

Believers that refuse his mark will be put to death (by him), so yes he will overcome them in the last days. Believers will die for their faith. Why are you saying these are deceived? How are they deceived? Obviously they're not because they refuse his mark and get put to death as a result. It's those who don't know the truth that will be deceived by the enemy and they will take his mark.

As I said before, the big deception will fool those that are lost (unbelievers), they will believe the lie and many of them will perish because they didn't receive the love of the truth that they might be saved.

The rapture has nothing to do with this end time deception, so don't lean on your own understanding but look at what the scriptures say.

The Great Multitude in Heaven, Rev 7, were deceived. They fell down and worshiped the Beast thinking he was Christ. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is a lie. Satan is behind it. We are warned everywhere about false prophets (which means - teachings). We are warned by Paul not to be deceived concerning the timing of the Lord's return.

We are warned against this Rapture doctrine repeatedly if you know what to look for. We are told 7 times in the NT alone to have "patience and faith" (which means wait for the real Christ and not go out after the first "Christ"). We are told, "not to love our lives to the death." We are told "that those who wish to save their lives will lose them and those that lose their lives will save them." We are told to put on the Armor of God, girding ourselves with Truth and not to walk naked and be ashamed." Christ tells us that "(He) has told us all things (concerning the end times)" yet He never discusses a Rapture. The warning signs are everywhere.

I know if you were raised being taught the Rapture that you will find it impossible to believe its a lie. My dad was a Baptist minister for 18 years so I was taught the Rapture too. It wasn't until later in life when I read the whole Bible that I could not find the Rapture in the Bible. I have been studying this issue and end times prophesy for 20 years.

As for the Great Multitude, they were slaughtered and God allows it because they did not remain pure to Him, they "slept" with false doctrines and teachings. Contrast them with the 144K who are called virgins (spiritual virgins), meaning they never worshiped false gods or doctrines. The 144K are called "firstfruits redeemed from men" This alone proves no rapture because there can't be anyone redeemed from men before the 144K and they are still on earth throughout the Trib.

Revelation is full of spiritual imagery. The seals, trumpets and bowls are not all literal. The 144K aren't a bunch of kids or nerdy virgin geeks - they are the cream of the crop of all Christians of Jewish descent. Mystery Babylon being the Mother of all Harlots doesn't mean she is the top Madam in the world. Just about every passage in Revelation has a witness or other place in the Bible where the same issue is taught. You need to find those other passages to figure out the symbolism.

The Great Multitude were hungry, thirsty, ashamed (the sun will not light on them nor any heat) and crying. Everyone thinks this was because they had it so tough during the tribulation. Not so!! They were killed, not Raptured. Their robes had to be washed in the blood of the lamb to make them white. They were thankful for salvation. They were standing before the throne of God, not under the alter with the martyrs.

Now look at Isaiah 65:

12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called , ye did not answer ; when I spake , ye did not hear ; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. 13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat , but ye shall be hungry : behold, my servants shall drink , but ye shall be thirsty : behold, my servants shall rejoice , but ye shall be ashamed : 14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. 15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Jesus says in Mat 24: "Woe to those who are pregnant and nursing in those days." This is NOT a reference to actual pregnant and nursing mothers. A child is a gift from God, not a curse. This is a reference to those who are falling false doctrines, teachings of man, or worse. Those pregnant are believing the lies of Satan, those nursing are feeding or teaching the lie - i.e. pastors teaching the Rapture.

Read Mat 24:21-26. This is the passage right after the Abomination of Desolation is seen. What is Jesus emphasizing in these verses? Not to go forth after any false Christs!! The Rapture twists God's words and timing. It sets up the Antichrist to deceive the church. Who misled the people when Christ was on earth?? The religious leaders. Who is teaching this false rapture doctrine today and leading their sheep to the slaughter?? History repeats. Read Ezek 13.2-7, 16, 20 KJV. Read Jer 8:11:

11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, Saying, 'Peace, peace!' When there is no peace.

God has NEVER taught his people to run away from hard times. God has NEVER removed His people from earth to protect them. We are given tools and armor to stand firm. We are to be the salt and light, not the cowards who flee. Satan is the master deceiver. He ALWAYS takes scripture and twists it into something we prefer. Satan know the Bible better than any of us. Satan CANNOT harm one hair of a saint unless God allows it. So why would God allow the Great Multitude to be killed???? Maybe because they believed the lie and went out when Christ told them to Not Go Out.

Turn to Rev 14:

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' "
This passage takes place AFTER the multitude is seen in heaven. Why is it only those who die from now on are blessed? Because they had patience and keep the commandments of God and had faith in Jesus. They were sealed on their foreheads with the truth concerning when the Lord returns and knew when not to go out.

The Great Tribulation is a period of incredible Satanic temptation and miracles. He will deceive many Christians. Don't be one of them.

Satan doesn't need to deceive the lost, they are his already. Satan wants to embarrass God by deceiving as many Christians as he can.

 

[PlainWord]

So many Christians read Revelation with the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls and start counting up the bodies from all the mountains, stars, bloody and bitter waters, burned trees and grass, massive earthquakes, hail, etc and think, "Man this is going to be bad." Yes, it will not be a walk in the park but not all those frightening things happen. At least not with most of us Christians on earth.

The Olivet Discourse is the most important prophesy for understanding Revelation and what will literally happen. What does Jesus tell us about the condition on earth just prior to His return?

Mat 24:

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

It will be like the Days of Noah!! Nobody saw it coming (except of course, Noah)!!! Therefore things will appear relatively normal. There isn't going to be a Rapture where people are being snatched up all over the place with planes crashing and buses driving off the road. Read carefully. Who was taken during the days of Noah??? Read verse 39. It was the wicked taken, not the righteous to some Rapture. This agrees with the Wheat and Tares. The wicked are ripped up, then the grain is gathered into the barn.

Those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture look at verse 43 about the thief and often argue that the Lord comes as a thief for the Rapture but in all His glory for the second coming. First, they miss the point. The Lord isn't saying he is coming quietly in secret. If you are WATCHING, you will know the season. Secondly, He describes His second coming the same way, as a thief in Rev 16:15. The context is just before Armageddon which agrees with Mat 24:28, see Rev 16:15:

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

So every description of the Lord's return describes ONE RETURN. Every place where the timing is given is AFTER the Tribulation, or Testing/Temptation of Satan.

 

[Isdaniel]

So many Christians read Revelation with the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls and start counting up the bodies from all the mountains, stars, bloody and bitter waters, burned trees and grass, massive earthquakes, hail, etc and think, "Man this is going to be bad." Yes, it will not be a walk in the park but not all those frightening things happen. At least not with most of us Christians on earth.

The Olivet Discourse is the most important prophesy for understanding Revelation and what will literally happen. What does Jesus tell us about the condition on earth just prior to His return?

Mat 24:

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

It will be like the Days of Noah!! Nobody saw it coming (except of course, Noah)!!! Therefore things will appear relatively normal. There isn't going to be a Rapture where people are being snatched up all over the place with planes crashing and buses driving off the road. Read carefully. Who was taken during the days of Noah??? Read verse 39. It was the wicked taken, not the righteous to some Rapture. This agrees with the Wheat and Tares. The wicked are ripped up, then the grain is gathered into the barn.

Those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture look at verse 43 about the thief and often argue that the Lord comes as a thief for the Rapture but in all His glory for the second coming. First, they miss the point. The Lord isn't saying he is coming quietly in secret. If you are WATCHING, you will know the season. Secondly, He describes His second coming the same way, as a thief in Rev 16:15. The context is just before Armageddon which agrees with Mat 24:28, see Rev 16:15:

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

So every description of the Lord's return describes ONE RETURN. Every place where the timing is given is AFTER the Tribulation, or Testing/Temptation of Satan.

[h=3]Psalm 50[/h]King James Version (KJV)

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

 

[Isdaniel]

[h=3]Psalm 72[/h]King James Version (KJV)


72 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

 

[PlainWord]

When the Lord comes, it is going to be bad, really bad for those left on earth. But we aren't going to be here. Most of the Christian world will be in heaven. As I explained earlier, they are slaughtered for being fooled by Satan. But God will wipe the tears away from their eyes.

God most often does battle with a small group of select people. See Joshua, see Gideon. This is how God is glorified. The 144K are His ELECT. They represent this small select group armed with the Truth. When Christ appears, He gathers His ELECT from the four corners of earth. He brings the martyred saints from heaven while everyone else in heaven "rests" for the 1,000 years which is 1 day in heaven. They all meet in the clouds then are seen standing on Mount Zion together. This is the real Rapture. This small army, led by the Lamb, fight and win at Armageddon where ALL OF CHRIST'S enemies are killed. The Elect then serve and reign with Christ for 1,000 years as teachers/priests.

This is what Paul was discussing. This is what John describes in Rev 20.

 

[Isdaniel]

There is only the 2nd coming of Jesus

If he takes people to heaven and then comes with them again then that will be three comings hmmm could someone shew where in the bible talks about a third coming of Jesus.

Hebrews 9

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[PlainWord]

Psalm 50

King James Version (KJV)

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
[SUP]3[/SUP]Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

See also Rev 19 and Zech 14.

 

[Isdaniel]

See also Rev 19 and Zech 14.

Job 19

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

 

[Isdaniel]

The trumpet and the second coming of Jesus is Literal hmmm Israel heard trumpets literally so is when God comes literal

blowing of the trumpet to herald in Jesus return


Exodus 19
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

 

[Isdaniel]

Jesus will not come until the antichrist or the Wicked is revealed to persecute the saints of God

2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8[/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[zone]

The "elect" who are "gathered from the four winds" in Matthew 24:31 are

the remnant of Jews

(who physically survived the tribulation)

from the diaspora

who will be regathered to Israel

to reign with Christ

during the Millennium.

absolute fiction.

 

[Isdaniel]

absolute fiction.

The elect are the church not only the jews read the whole chapter and the following verse


Question Is Jesus only speaking about the Jews or us ?

Matthew 24

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

 

[Isdaniel]

God’s Elect from the nation of Israel

Israel is God’s chosen nation. However, the majority of Israelites die as unbelievers. Paul says in Romans Chapters 9-11 that it was never God’s purpose to save all Israelites before they die, except for God’s Elect from the nation of Israel, who are called the remnant of Israel.

Romans 11:5-7
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Only a remnant of Israelites, God’s Elect, will be resurrected in their saved, immortal and glorified bodies to enter the Millennial Kingdom of God with Jesus Christ on His return to earth.


God’s Elect from the Gentile nations

In God’s Plan for the salvation of all, God has purposely blinded all of Israel, except for the Jewish Elect remnant, until He has first called and chosen all of His Gentile Elect.

Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

During this age, a part (the majority) of Israelites have been blinded to the Gospel because God’s present focus is on calling and choosing His Elect from the Gentile nations until their full number has come in (been saved).

Jesus says that no one can come to Him except those whom the Father draws to Him, and all that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Only God's Elect, His Sheep, can hear God's voice and are capable of following Him.

 

[Isdaniel]

[SUP]All that accept Jesus is called God's Elect . Both the believing Jews and Believing gentiles

Romans 8
28[/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

[SUP]32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

[SUP]33 [/SUP]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

 

[zone]

God’s Elect from the nation of Israel

Israel is God’s chosen nation. However, the majority of Israelites die as unbelievers. Paul says in Romans Chapters 9-11 that it was never God’s purpose to save all Israelites before they die, except for God’s Elect from the nation of Israel, who are called the remnant of Israel.

Romans 11:5-7
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Only a remnant of Israelites, God’s Elect, will be resurrected in their saved, immortal and glorified bodies to enter the Millennial Kingdom of God with Jesus Christ on His return to earth.

then who gets saved during the non-existent future 1,000 years?
you have flesh people and glorified people populating a half cursed earth or what?

 

[zone]

During this age, a part (the majority) of Israelites have been blinded to the Gospel because God’s present focus is on calling and choosing His Elect from the Gentile nations until their full number has come in (been saved)

where is there any GENTILE AGE?
since when did the Gospel become divided?

take out the future 1,000 years that doesn't exist and you have it right.

only a remnant was called out. Paul said in his day.
the church is the called out ones...jew and gentile...all the way back to Adam.

that's all there is.

this so-called distinction between "Israel" and the "Church" is so entirely anti-gospel, it's beyond my understanding how anyone believes it.

 

[Katy-follower]

2 Thess 2:9-12: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

This kind of reminds me of that scripture that speaks of God handing people over to the lusts of their hearts, those who worship the creature and not the Creator.

We're told that these deceptions will be so believable that "if possible" it would deceive even the elect, but no believer will be deceived by it, since believers have the wisdom of God and not the wisdom of the world. The lost do not have the helmet to protect their heads so are open to deception and many will perish because they didn't receive the love of the truth that they might be saved. They will believe the lie.

1 Cor 1:18-19: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

 

[notuptome]

where is there any GENTILE AGE?
since when did the Gospel become divided?

take out the future 1,000 years that doesn't exist and you have it right.

only a remnant was called out. Paul said in his day.
the church is the called out ones...jew and gentile...all the way back to Adam.

that's all there is.

this so-called distinction between "Israel" and the "Church" is so entirely anti-gospel, it's beyond my understanding how anyone believes it.

So what was Jesus talking about in Luke 21:24?

The gospel is not divided but the history of man certainly has been.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PlainWord]

absolute fiction.

You are being wayyyy too kind sister Zone, LOL. I'd call it more like, "The Great Deception of Satan aimed at Deceiving the Christian world into believing in and worshiping Satan's false one." But I lack your tactfulness...