Calvinism taking over Southern Baptists

[Jda016]

There is a reason these things are debated all over the globe for hundreds and even thousands of years. The reason: there is scripture which seems to support both sides.

there are verses that seem to say we are predestined or that God chose us, but there are also Scriptures that say God desires all men to be saved which implies man has a choice. In Fact a plain reading of the entire Bible will show FAR more evidences of choices being made by the individual, than God just ordaining every event. We have the choice of Adam and Eve to sin in Genesis and we have Christ telling people in Revelation to repent.

I personally find too many holes in Calvinism to accept it, however I know that God saved me when I was six and it had nothing to do with me. On the other hand, I still make free will choices to follow and obey God.

I also don't understand why most Calvinists are cessationalists. I could never believe that when I have seen God's deliverance and healing first hand from prayer.

 

[Spokenpassage]

There is a reason these things are debated all over the globe for hundreds and even thousands of years. The reason: there is scripture which seems to support both sides.

there are verses that seem to say we are predestined or that God chose us, but there are also Scriptures that say God desires all men to be saved which implies man has a choice. In Fact a plain reading of the entire Bible will show FAR more evidences of choices being made by the individual, than God just ordaining every event. We have the choice of Adam and Eve to sin in Genesis and we have Christ telling people in Revelation to repent.

I personally find too many holes in Calvinism to accept it, however I know that God saved me when I was six and it had nothing to do with me. On the other hand, I still make free will choices to follow and obey God.

I also don't understand why most Calvinists are cessationalists. I could never believe that when I have seen God's deliverance and healing first hand from prayer.

Why not study it?

 

[Jda016]

Why not study it?

I have. It gets very complicated and far reaching when trying to explain away Scriptures that don't support it's inherent view.

For instance Calvinism believes certain people are predestined for Heaven and others predestined for Hell, all by God's choice without having anything to do with man.

then we have scriptures in Peter and Timothy that says God desires all men to be saved. Calvinism tries to explain this away by showing different levels of "God's Will." On one level he wants all men to come to Him, but on another level he wants to damn certain people to hell without any choice of their own all for his glory even though scriptures says God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that he would have all men repent.

I have never found an adequate answer from Calvinism In trying to reconcile these scriptures.

and that is just one example. I have many more.

 

[Spokenpassage]

I have. It gets very complicated and far reaching when trying to explain away Scriptures that don't support it's inherent view.

For instance Calvinism believes certain people are predestined for Heaven and others predestined for Hell, all by God's choice without having anything to do with man.

then we have scriptures in Peter and Timothy that says God desires all men to be saved. Calvinism tries to explain this away by showing different levels of "God's Will." On one level he wants all men to come to Him, but on another level he wants to damn certain people to hell without any choice of their own all for his glory even though scriptures says God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that he would have all men repent.

I have never found an adequate answer from Calvinism In trying to reconcile these scriptures.

What if it's your reconciliation of scripture that needs fixing God desires all men not sin, but does man sin?

Do you remember that old passage, "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated."?

Romans 9 explains God's election using this as an example.

 

[Jda016]

What if it's your reconciliation of scripture that needs fixing God desires all men not sin, but does man sin?

Do you remember that old passage, "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated."?

Romans 9 explains God's election using this as an example.

1 Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

I just can't see how the doctrines of God picking and choosing are reconciled with these scriptures.

I always saw "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" as meaning God chose Jacob over Esau. Esau, after all, sold his birthright for a cup of soup, that is how little he cared for the inheritance he would have received.

I also read an interesting passage somewhere in one of the 5 books of the Pentateuch. Israel was traveling and they were going past Edom who were the descendents of Esau. God told them not to touch or take their land and to purchase supplies and food from them. God said that he had given the land to them and the Israelites were to respect that. God giving them a land and home is not something I would describe as "hatred" for them. They eventually were destroyed, not because God arbitrary hated them, but because they no longer worshiped God and served idols.

 

[doseofreality]

There is a reason these things are debated all over the globe for hundreds and even thousands of years. The reason: there is scripture which seems to support both sides.

there are verses that seem to say we are predestined or that God chose us, but there are also Scriptures that say God desires all men to be saved which implies man has a choice. In Fact a plain reading of the entire Bible will show FAR more evidences of choices being made by the individual, than God just ordaining every event. We have the choice of Adam and Eve to sin in Genesis and we have Christ telling people in Revelation to repent.

I personally find too many holes in Calvinism to accept it, however I know that God saved me when I was six and it had nothing to do with me. On the other hand, I still make free will choices to follow and obey God.

I also don't understand why most Calvinists are cessationalists. I could never believe that when I have seen God's deliverance and healing first hand from prayer.

Agreed. Now as a unbeliever it is my duty to make the off-handed comment that because the bible supports both sides, there is a contradiction, thus the bible is fallible, thus the bible is not the word of God

Anyway, as a christian I leaned toward calvinism because it seemed to be more consistent with God's sovereignty.
There seems to be a paradox when consolidating free-will with ultimate sovereignty.

 

[doseofreality]

I always saw "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" as meaning God chose Jacob over Esau. Esau, after all, sold his birthright for a cup of soup, that is how little he cared for the inheritance he would have received.

The reference here refers to Genesis 25:23, which says the choice was made before birth.

 

[Jda016]

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but don't we see the "Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated" in Malachi first?

"...yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness..." (Malachi 1:2-3).

here we see that Malachi was used by God to pronounce His displeasure against Esau (Edomites), because the Edomites were evil and continually harassed Israel through war. They also provoked God to anger and wrath because of their sin. This "hatred" came after their sin, not before. I don't think God arbitrary just decided that he was going to hate Esau (all Edomites) simply because he wanted to. It was in response to their sin. However, God did pick Jacob as His chosen people and whom Christ would eventually come.

i just think that is important to note.

 

[Jda016]

Agreed. Now as a unbeliever it is my duty to make the off-handed comment that because the bible supports both sides, there is a contradiction, thus the bible is fallible, thus the bible is not the word of God

Anyway, as a christian I leaned toward calvinism because it seemed to be more consistent with God's sovereignty.
There seems to be a paradox when consolidating free-will with ultimate sovereignty.

Hah yes! As you are an athiest, I can understand why you see the Bible seems to have contradictions.

I still see it as infallible, but that my understanding of it is not complete. I can't tell you how many passages have made perfect sense when they once seemed like mud, when I studied, prayed, cross referenced, and looked into the Greek and Hebrew.

One of the reasons I love it so much is that there are so many hidden things within the Bible that make everything SO much clearer.

but yes, there does seen to be a mystery between God's choice and human agency.

 

[Jda016]

Of course, at the end of the day, I suppose it doesn't matter too much between God's choice vs free will. As Christians we are to follow all the commands Christ gives us. Which calls for evangelism, despite ones belief in predestination. It calls for choosing Godliness, despite believing in once saved always saved. It calls for pray and trying to do that which is right, even if one believes God always gets His way or not.

Belief in certain doctrines are not quite the same as simply following the commands of God set forth for us in His word. And we are all called to obey Him.

 

[Spokenpassage]

1 Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

I just can't see how the doctrines of God picking and choosing are reconciled with these scriptures.

I'm not saying God doesn't love certain people, God loves all people. But He has a special love for the elect in whom He ordained before the foundations of the earth (Ephesians 1:3-6). Common grace is is described as a grace that God gives to all men such as, "He causes the His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous." (Matt. 5:45). Sovereign grace is a special kind for His people (Romans 9:16).

It's man's fault for living in rebellion against Him, as a result of sin they are totally depraved. They do not want God. God most intervene to draw them to Him (John 6:44).

God may desire for people to be saved by a passive will, but His decreed will is foreordained. The invitation to the gospel message may be general, but the only people who accept it are the ones in which it was purposely given to, the elect. Since God is sovereign, He could have saved everyone, but He told us there will be be people in hell. Should definitely not be a pleasant thought for any Christian.

I always saw "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" as meaning God chose Jacob over Esau. Esau, after all, sold his birthright for a cup of soup, that is how little he cared for the inheritance he would have received.

Actually God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born, before they could make any choices (Romans 9:11) so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Of course, at the end of the day, I suppose it doesn't matter too much between God's choice vs free will. As Christians we are to follow all the commands Christ gives us. Which calls for evangelism, despite ones belief in predestination. It calls for choosing Godliness, despite believing in once saved always saved. It calls for pray and trying to do that which is right, even if one believes God always gets His way or not.

Belief in certain doctrines are not quite the same as simply following the commands of God set forth for us in His word. And we are all called to obey Him.

Of course obedience and godliness are very important, and especially prayer!

See people may think we don't evangelize much, when it's quite the opposite. It encourages us even more, because scriptures tell us that our evangelism will not fail to plant a seed or reap a soul in sharing the gospel to the elect. We don't know exactly who the lost elect are, but God is working in their lives for them to be saved, we are called to preach the message to all people.

 

[doseofreality]

I also don't understand why most Calvinists are cessationalists. I could never believe that when I have seen God's deliverance and healing first hand from prayer.

If you don't mind me asking, what healing have you witnessed?
I am curious and of course skeptical

 

[Jda016]

I'm not saying God doesn't love certain people, God loves all people. But He has a special love for the elect in whom He ordained before the foundations of the earth (Ephesians 1:3-6). Common grace is is described as a grace that God gives to all men such as, "He causes the His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous." (Matt. 5:45). Sovereign grace is a special kind for His people (Romans 9:16).

It's man's fault for living in rebellion against Him, as a result of sin they are totally depraved. They do not want God. God most intervene to draw them to Him (John 6:44).

God may desire for people to be saved by a passive will, but His decreed will is foreordained. The invitation to the gospel message may be general, but the only people who accept it are the ones in which it was purposely given to, the elect. Since God is sovereign, He could have saved everyone, but He told us there will be be people in hell. Should definitely not be a pleasant thought for any Christian.




Actually God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born, before they could make any choices (Romans 9:11) so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand.

ah yes, it is the common grace vs sovereign grace ideas that i have heard before. But I feel this is a man-made doctrine to try and explain away what it clearly says in Timothy and Peter: God desires all men to be saved. Again this doesn't make sense if he purposefully damns people to hell without ever giving them any choice of their own, especially when the Bible repeatedly tells people to choose God, therefore implying a choice.

You just can't say God desires all men to be saved and yet at the EXACT same time desires certain men and women to be damned to hell just for his Glory.

Im sorry, I just never found the different ideas of grace to be sufficient in explaining these Scriptures.

Any first time reader of the Bible would never get the different ideas of common grace vs sovereign grace from Timothy and Peter. A plain reading of the text seems to say that God wants all people to repent and be saved. You have to extrapolate different doctrines into those scriptures to get to them to say something other than what they mean.

 

[Jda016]

Actually God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born, before they could make any choices (Romans 9:11) so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand.

Well I looked up the Hebrew word for hated and it does say hate, but it also uses the word "enemy."

Now, did God not give Esau any choice but to rebel against His word, or did he simply foreknew that Esau and the Edomites would despise and hate God, thus making themselves enemies of God? It even says in Genesis that Esau hated Jacob. Even then God still let Jacob and Esau make peace and God gave the Edomites land, food, shelter, etc. again, those are loving things, not hateful.

God's actions toward Esau were kind. It was only after the Edomites rejected God did God's wrath fall on them.

 

[Jda016]

Of course obedience and godliness are very important, and especially prayer!

See people may think we don't evangelize much, when it's quite the opposite. It encourages us even more, because scriptures tell us that our evangelism will not fail to plant a seed or reap a soul in sharing the gospel to the elect. We don't know exactly who the lost elect are, but God is working in their lives for them to be saved, we are called to preach the message to all people.

That is good! I have unfortunately found some Calvinists come to the conclusion, "why pray? Why Evangelize? Why do anything? God is going to get His way anyway, so it is pointless for me to do anything." This is the trap I hate that some Calvinists fall into.

 

[Spokenpassage]

ah yes, it is the common grace vs sovereign grace ideas that i have heard before. But I feel this is a man-made doctrine to try and explain away what it clearly says in Timothy and Peter: God desires all men to be saved. Again this doesn't make sense if he purposefully damns people to hell without ever giving them any choice of their own, especially when the Bible repeatedly tells people to choose God, therefore implying a choice.

You just can't say God desires all men to be saved and yet at the EXACT same time desires certain men and women to be damned to hell just for his Glory.

Im sorry, I just never found the different ideas of grace to be sufficient in explaining these Scriptures.

Any first time reader of the Bible would never get the different ideas of common grace vs sovereign grace from Timothy and Peter. A plain reading of the text seems to say that God wants all people to repent and be saved. You have to extrapolate different doctrines into those scriptures to get to them to say something other than what they mean.

Who said God desired people to go to hell? I did not say that at all. If the Christian isn't suppose to be happy about that, why would God be happy with that?

I'm just reading the scriptures as its meant to be read. I am not trying to add any doctrine, nor am I supporting a man made doctrine. I can point out scripture for all the points, but it's up to you whether you believe it or not.

You are using two verses, one of which is from Timothy which doesn't surprise me because there in the second book a verse concerning election too!

2 Timothy 2:10 NAS

"For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory."

You can read this in context, so from what I'm hearing is that Paul was persecuted for the elect, so that they may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus and with eternal glory....

........how do you reconcile this verse?

 

[Jda016]

If you don't mind me asking, what healing have you witnessed?
I am curious and of course skeptical

But of course you are skeptical! You don't believe in God!

One instance was when I prayed for my mom who had a very strong UTI. It had been afflicting her for weeks and antibiotics were not working. Nothing helped. I said a very simple prayer with her and the very next day all the pain stopped. It was so bad before that it made her completely anxious and hardly able to sit down for long, but not long after I prayed it completely left her. Even she was surprised as she has a hard time believing for physical healing.

Another time I had a kidney stone. I woke up in the middle of the night with an extreme pain in my left abdomen area. I was completely doubled over as it hurt so bad. I prayed for God to take it away, but nothing happened. The pain increased. Then I stopped praying with just my head, but started crying out to God with my heart. This was real deep prayer, like the woman grabbing onto Jesus' cloak. Suddenly and immediately the pain stopped. No lingering effects at all. I went right back to sleep. First thing when I woke up, I went to the bathroom and the first thing out was a kidney stone about 3cm or so. It didn't hurt at all.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Well I looked up the Hebrew word for hated and it does say hate, but it also uses the word "enemy."

Now, did God not give Esau any choice but to rebel against His word, or did he simply foreknew that Esau and the Edomites would despise and hate God, thus making themselves enemies of God? It even says in Genesis that Esau hated Jacob. Even then God still let Jacob and Esau make peace and God gave the Edomites land, food, shelter, etc. again, those are loving things, not hateful.

God's actions toward Esau were kind. It was only after the Edomites rejected God did God's wrath fall on them.

God's common grace is not limited to the rebellious (Matt. 5:45). But you see, they weren't foreseen chosen out of any merit for then Jacob could have lost his place before God by his own sin, deception (Genesis 27). Both of them were born sinners, but that's why election is unconditional, because grace is something free of conditions.

Jacob became the father of the twelve tribes, thus being the one God chose, he was of the promise.

 

[Spokenpassage]

That is good! I have unfortunately found some Calvinists come to the conclusion, "why pray? Why Evangelize? Why do anything? God is going to get His way anyway, so it is pointless for me to do anything." This is the trap I hate that some Calvinists fall into.

That's hyper-calvinism, they take it to the extremes.