Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[Iconoclast]

So he left that part out? Of course!

These kind of guys usually do that...lol....If they wanted truth they would honestly read the whole sermon, and pray about it...

 

[preacher4truth]

These kind of guys usually do that...lol....If they wanted truth they would honestly read the whole sermon, and pray about it...

They need to become like Paul Harvey and tell the rest of the story.

 

[Iconoclast]

They need to become like Paul Harvey and tell the rest of the story.

On many "Christian Forums" it seems strange that persons will quote things in a misleading way. This does not seem like conduct consistent with the the gospel. We are supposed to be truthful.

 

[preacher4truth]

On many "Christian Forums" it seems strange that persons will quote things in a misleading way. This does not seem like conduct consistent with the the gospel. We are supposed to be truthful.

Yes, bearing false witness abounds among professing believers. Very troubling...

 

[SovereignGrace]

No one is justified before having faith. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness.[Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23]

The very moment one has faith, they're justified, and not before then.

 

[Nehemiah6]

These kind of guys usually do that...lol....If they wanted truth they would honestly read the whole sermon, and pray about it...

Again we have ad hominem attacks instead of dealing with the issues at hand. So let's see what is dishonest about bringing this quotation to everyone's attention and asking for an explanation of such a bizarre phenomenon?

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.

The preceding paragraph which you included did not not provide any explanation for this unbiblical concept. So why don't justify it instead of attack. This is just a reiteration: There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul.

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is what brings about the New Birth, not the opposite -- Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved ... Whoseover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved..

 

[trofimus]

My Hab 2:4 is:

"But the just will live by my faith."

I.e. by the faith (or faithfullness) of Christ, given to us. Our faith is also a gift.

-----

BTW, the context is about future (from the perspective of Habakuk), not about technical order of spiritual events. Were is your hermeneutics, you talk about so much?

Verse 3: "For there is still a vision for an appointment time and it will rise up at the end and not in vain."

 

[John146]

No one is justified before having faith. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness.[Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23]

The very moment one has faith, they're justified, and not before then.

You still refuse to give your explanation of Jonah...let's hear it. Did God lie or did He simply change His mind?

 

[PennEd]

Yes that is what they believe, since they believe that God elects some for salvation, therefore they received faith as a gift. But that does not correspond to what the Bible actually reveals about salvation.

I abhor labels, so I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist, but I am curious. If YOUR faith is not a gift of God, where does it come from. Do YOU with your own strength muster it up?

This is aside the fact that Paul tells us directly that faith is a gift of God.

 

[PennEd]

You still refuse to give your explanation of Jonah...let's hear it. Did God lie or did He simply change His mind?

God did neither. Jonah knew all along God would show the Ninevites mercy.
The Assyrians had recently conquered the Northern kingdom. And they were particularly brutal.

Jonah WANTED God to destroy them.

 

[trofimus]

I abhor labels, so I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist, but I am curious. If YOUR faith is not a gift of God, where does it come from. Do YOU with your own strength muster it up?

This is aside the fact that Paul tells us directly that faith is a gift of God.

Right.

"Peace to the brothers and sisters, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Eph 6:23

"And Jesus answering, says to them, "Have faith from God." Mark 11:22

And many other places.

 

[trofimus]

God did neither. Jonah knew all along God would show the Ninevites mercy.
The Assyrians had recently conquered the Northern kingdom. And they were particularly brutal.

Jonah WANTED God to destroy them.

Do you think thats why Jonah tried to run away? Because He knew that Niniveh will repent and God will not destroy them?

 

[valiant]

Calvinism's order of salvation places the new birth BEFORE having faith in Christ. That logic turns Hab 2:4 on its head "the just shall live by his faith" into " the just shall live and they don't even have to believe in God first".

You clearly don't understand true 'Calvinism'. God's election was before time began. Man's salvation takes place in time by God given faith. The just shall live by faith because God gave him faith at the time when he became 'just'.

 

[PennEd]

Do you think thats why Jonah tried to run away? Because He knew that Niniveh will repent and God will not destroy them?

Yes. Jonah 4:1-2 Says exactly that.

 

[trofimus]

Yes. Jonah 4:1-2 Says exactly that.

I overlooked these verses. Thanks.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Again we have ad hominem attacks instead of dealing with the issues at hand. So let's see what is dishonest about bringing this quotation to everyone's attention and asking for an explanation of such a bizarre phenomenon?

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.

The preceding paragraph which you included did not not provide any explanation for this unbiblical concept. So why don't justify it instead of attack. This is just a reiteration: There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul.

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is what brings about the New Birth, not the opposite -- Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved ... Whoseover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved..

I agree. Its as if those guys are reading things from another planet and then coming back here to make their comments.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

You clearly don't understand true 'Calvinism'. God's election was before time began. Man's salvation takes place in time by God given faith. The just shall live by faith because God gave him faith at the time when he became 'just'.

I understand Calvinism better than you because you missed saying that Calvinism believes regeneration occures before faith in their Order of Salvation.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Since I have quoted the exact words from one of Spurgeon's sermons, why don't you enlighten us as to how it is possible for the New Birth to PRECEDE faith? And give us Bible examples of this strange phenomenon.

And putting "alleged" before believers is suggesting that they are not really saved -- questioning their salvation. Another one of your belligerent tactics.

The new birth does not precede faith. It comes at the moment of faith.

The question between the two camps is not over which comes first.

The question is over whether the sight to see, to even have faith to begin with, has come from within or without.

The verse tells us that it is from without. It says that by Gods kindness have you been saved, through faith, and even that faith is not of yourself so no man can boast about his faith as if it wasn't a gift.

So a man cannot say that he is saved because he made a smart choice. Faith is not a smart choice - it is a saving gift from God.

Now after the man has been saved in this manner, there is more about faith, as a man can attest when he begins walking in it over the course of his life.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I said part of that, God has mercy on whom he wills, and this is true, you added the ending. You're just trying to change the subject since you made a foolish and unsubstantiated claim.

But none of that has a thing to do with my post you responded to.

Atheists can be born again, then they are no longer atheists. Calvinists don't teach a person can be saved without believing in God or the Gospel as you've claimed, that's an outright lie.

That's what we're dealing with, your asinine statement, not that God has mercy on whom he wills, which is another subject altogether. All this from you who demands others stay on topic, while you don't.

I am not lying. Calvinists believe an atheist, someone who doesn't believe in God, is born again BEFORE they even believe that God exists.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

The new birth does not precede faith. It comes at the moment of faith.

The question between the two camps is not over which comes first.

The question is over whether the sight to see, to even have faith to begin with, has come from within or without.

The verse tells us that it is from without. It says that by Gods kindness have you been saved, through faith, and even that faith is not of yourself so no man can boast about his faith as if it wasn't a gift.

So a man cannot say that he is saved because he made a smart choice. Faith is not a smart choice - it is a saving gift from God.

Now after the man has been saved in this manner, there is more about faith, as a man can attest when he begins walking in it over the course of his life.

No, not in Calvinism's order of salvation. Regeneration precedes faith.